Ghostcrawler on Spirit Beasts & Pet Choice

[Mania]

Ghostcrawler posted this fascinating snippet in the Damage Dealing forum today:

The Spirit Beasts were added as a way to capture that old feeling of having to hunt (which really means be very patient and very lucky) to get rare spawn pets so that you'd feel awesome and be able to show them off. Making those creatures actually more powerful than other pets goes completely counter to that design. If the frustratingly rare spawn is needed for highest possible dps, there would be a lot of exasperated hunters out there, and I think they'd be totally justified.

Spirit Beasts are the hunter equivalent of the Time Lost Protodrake. They are there for bragging rights, not max dps.

We're not sure yet what we're going to do for hunter pets in the future. I fear that even if the dps gain was marginal that hunters would still go for the highest dps pets, so really there only exists an illusion of choice. We could literally make all of the pet families do the exact dps and have rather watered down special abilities (because otherwise one of them might grant a 1 or 2% dps benefit and that would end up being the pet again).

In other words, I can see a design where pet choice is purely cosmetic and pet stats are identical or I can see a design where pet choice matters, in which case you don't really have that many to choose from on content that matters.

[Saturo]

So... He either wants all pets to be the same, or have a few "good" ones, like the wolves now?

What I'd rather have, is a large number of pets, that are roughly the same in DPS, where some might have pure DPS moves, while others have the armor debuffs and such.

My guess, however, is that they'll equalize pets sooner than they buff / nerf them right. /sigh

[Vephriel]

Interesting indeed!

I've always been of the opinion that Spirit Beasts were put out there purely for us crazies that love to track down a rare. I'm relieved that they aren't going to be (and aren't meant to be) top DPS, as then everyone would be going after them...even the hunters that don't care about pets, leaving them unnamed and viewing them as nothing more than a tool. Then again, most hunters of that ilk wouldn't be speccing so far into BM anyways, but regardless...I'm glad.

He strikes up a really tough dilemma concerning pet variety though. It really just seems to come down to those two choices....either standardize all creatures so that we could run with whatever companion we wanted, or leave the species specific traits and always end up with one or two that top the charts (no matter how minimally).

Personally, I can't even decide which of those two routes I'd prefer.

I love that every pet family has its own unique ability - something that makes sense according to the animal itself. If they all just became carbon copies of one another with the exception of appearance...it would feel like such a cop out.

At the same time, I'm so sick of seeing wolves everywhere when there are billions (note: slight exaggeration) of other interesting creatures out there. Also, the thought of being able to choose whatever pet we wanted and have them perform equally to the best...that is rather nice as well.

Gah, it's a toughie that's for sure.

EDIT: Hmm, though I do like the idea that someone mentioned in that thread of putting the Furious Howl ability within the Ferocity Talent Tree, the same thing that was done with Thunderstomp. At least it would make Ferocity pets pretty much all-viable. Of course min/maxers would figure out which pet turns out the absolute most DPS and use them, but I think that overall it would significantly decrease the gap between other Ferocity pets.

[Sphax]

that idea that guy mentioned with furious howl moving to talent tree would actually fix the diference.

atleast we would see less wolves around and more raptors / cats :p

[Valfreya]

Yeah thats a tough call when it comes to trying to change things. I do miss the days when pets weren't so cookie cutter i.e. attack speed. Ive gotten to the point with my hunter that I just run mostly with my spirit beasts. They are so much fun, not to mention pretty. Although I do have a soft spot for my King Krush running big and red stomping people lol.

[Mania]

I know where I fall in this argument, and I know that it isn't a popular choice, even here.

But I want free choice in pets, and I support moving as much as possible to the pet talent trees and opening all the trees to all pets. (Well, not all at once -- you'd still choose one tree per pet.)

[Gimlion]

Well... The furious howl to Ferocity tree thing, it's sorta already there with Call of the Wild, just with a longer cooldown... So putting in close to the same ability with a shorter CD, doesn't quite make sense. Personally, I don't mind seeing wolves everywhere, I raid with a wolf too, but I love my wolf, I wouldn't trade him for anyone. I think that people who truly care about pets, not just pet deeps, will use whatever they like, especially if they can pull the Numbers together with said pet. So, meh, I'd go with the way we have it now, except I would also love to have initial Tree choice on pets... OH! and more pets of course

[Rhyela]

I would rather keep them unique than to make them all the same again. But, I think that something can be done to better the current situation of everyone using a wolf. If it was somehow incorporated into the talent tree (even if it meant a little bit of tweaking), I'd take that anyday. Seeing cats and raptors is at least better than seeing wolves and...wolves.

[cowmuflage]

I am kinda sick of the wolves being the "good" choice for hunter pets. Im sick of being lol'ed at for useing a buzzard/tallstrider/crab. I wouldnt mind for the cookiecutter same thing if it stops the hate.

[Witrely]

These problems are only relevant to end game raiding.
Pets are there for the entire hunter experience, not just the last stages of it.
If the developers make all their decisions only based on end game potential than they are missing their audiance of leveling hunters and new players.
I agree with him that to make more pets attractive to end game purposes they would need to make one of two choices. the bad one will be to equalize all pets and leave the pet choice at the cosmetic level. that would make hunter pets like warlock's demons. a few functions to choose from and the only real difference is the name.
The better one will give many pets special contribution and allow hunters to fit the right pet for the right time, place and task. this is alot more hard work and the number-crunchers will always calculate to the miligram of dps and point to one and say this is the best.
I raid with my blighthound when I spec Sv because its my favorite, when I first found it and saw it was tamable I thought my birthday came early.
I raid with my Skoll when I spec BM as a badge of hunter pride, it took me ages to get that gorgeous pet.
And I solo with my slime, because its fun and funny.
People who play with numbers foremost ands game feel second do not aim to enjoy the variety of existential fun. people who want to enjoy the game as more than the rank in dps meters will care about the pet they choose- within the limits of viability to their game style.
As much as I like watching chimeras and core-hounds I cannot play with them. the obscuring wing span on the one and the noise of the other bothers me to much.
At the beginning of WotLK they started out well, Rhinos cool ability comes to mind, but they nerfed it to oblivion soon after by trying to equalize everything - which makes everything mediocre. if they want pets to be overall equal there is always a tradeoff. you cannot shine in one direction without missing something somewhere else.
I don't know why they are so worried about dps output since they always say they want pets to be more than another type of dps tool.

[Mania]

People who play with numbers foremost ands game feel second do not aim to enjoy the variety of existential fun. people who want to enjoy the game as more than the rank in dps meters will care about the pet they choose- within the limits of viability to their game style.

And see, that's exactly why I'd prefer pets to be more equalized. I care about the pet I choose -- I care about its color, and how well its personality fits my character, and how it looks with my favorite armor, and the sounds it makes, and its animations.

I'd like to be able to choose whatever pet I want and customize it myself, through the talents I choose for myself and for the pet.

For example, I really like having a solid AoE ability (like Thunderstomp) -- I find it incredibly useful for mid-level leveling. But some of my characters just don't fit with the existing tenacity pets that are available at their level. I have a draenei hunter, for instance, that likes the sinuous stuff -- serpents, dragonhawks, and wind serpents. Unfortunately for her, all three of those are Cunning pets and none of them has access to Thunderstomp.

Okay, you say, so let's give all pet families access to whichever pet tree they want. That works ... except that some pet families have skills that would be redundant in some trees, and other will synergize so well with some talents that other choices are, let's face it, kinda dumb. Even for hunters like me, who care about game feel more than numbers.

I remember how things were when attack speeds were different. I remember when the stat bonuses on pets were all over the board, and some pets were just better in all ways. I remember how people laughed at me for my crabs -- and they were right. Leveling with a crab was harder than leveling with a cat. And I don't even want to talk about leveling with a sporebat.

I don't want to see those days return. But I do want my poor draenei to have access to Thunderstomp even though she's got a thing for the snaky pets. So I'm willing to give up some uniqueness, some situational power, in order to be able to choose my pets based strictly on what I care about: game feel.

[cowmuflage]

That does seem like a good way to go with pets the differnt specs i mean.

[Cryptography]

In computing there is a saying: "Fast, cheap, good. Pick any two." (I think its originally from engineering... whatever!)

Perhaps pet abilities can be redesigned with some sort of cost based system. A really narrowly focussed DPS build would be much more costly than a more general build, but any pet type could have it. Talent trees go some way towards this.

[Ryai]

And see, that's exactly why I'd prefer pets to be more equalized. I care about the pet I choose -- I care about its color, and how well its personality fits my character, and how it looks with my favorite armor, and the sounds it makes, and its animations.

And lets face it, some pets that are in the cunning, tenacity or ferocity trees do not belong there. Good examples would be Wind Serpents and Dragonhawks who are obviously just pure DPS pets, offering nothing special nor cunning nor useful or utility like with their 'racials'.

Corehounds seem more of a Cunning pet with their Flamebreath slowing casting- same with Hyena's having a snare. But, both are Ferocity.

Rhinos now have a fairly obvious DPS talent, yet are stuck as useless tenacity.

Then there are some pets who would/could swing both ways. Worms are decent tenacity pets, but their near threatless Sunder ability of Acid Spit is just as useful as a war. Meaning they'd make excellent Ferocity or Cunning pets. Was's sting debuff would be even more killer as a cunning pet most likely. And wouldn't shine that bad as a tenacity pet either.

And put FH into the ferocity tree. Can get rid of imp Cower >_>

[Azzrazzah]

I'm for getting rid of the talent tree's all together.. I'd like to be able to choose a pet (Any pet I want) and be able to spec it the way I want.. But as things are set now; there is too much useless hooking of tallents to other tallents to get what I want a pet to do.. But till that time comes around; I'm dealing with it as I'm able to..

[Bulletdance]

These are somewhat worrying words for me. I'm a gal who likes her choices. Not just for looks, but ability. So what if some people think wolves are the best because their dps is slightly higher. If every pet had a cookie cutter ability it'd be sooooooooo boring. Not that I like the idea of everyone having a wolf either. I think he needs to come up with a third option or quit and let someone who can take over his job. Same=boring.

[Sarayana]

I have to say, I agree with you Mania, with one modification. I like that pets are designated a tree. I like that some pets are specifically for tanking and some for dps. But straight up equalising the pets would be much less interesting than equalising them through the talent trees. You'd see so much variation in choices and even in pet specs. I really think that's the way to go.

[Helio]

They can go ahead and gie furious howl to other pet trees if they want. I actually like my wolf and will stick with him for a good long while... I dont see any other pet taking his spot. Not now, not ever... Oh trust me... I've tried to replace him a few times now actually..but in the end, my lil wolfy is my favorite pet by far.

[Sarayana]

They can go ahead and gie furious howl to other pet trees if they want. I actually like my wolf and will stick with him for a good long while... I dont see any other pet taking his spot. Not now, not ever... Oh trust me... I've tried to replace him a few times now actually..but in the end, my lil wolfy is my favorite pet by far.

But this is the thing, exactly! If they equalised the pets via the talent trees, people would use the pets they like! Remember how everyone had a gorilla back in the gorilladin phase? Yeah, my hunter hated hers. Totally not her style. The moment they made thunderstomp available to all tanking pets, people grabbed other tenacity pets because they liked them better. That should be the purpose of the pet families, to let the hunters choose their pets according to their likes and dislikes.

[Nimizar]

The progression of pets:

1. Incarnation the first (well, maybe not the first, but the one that was in effect when I started playing back in late 2005): Best pet? Whut? Pet?
Pet stats all over the place. Different attack speeds, different stat modifiers, different trainable abilities. The "best pet" was basically determined entirely by how fast its attack speed was (which meant taming and levelling Humar, Bangalash or Echeyakee, I believe).

2. Incarnation the second: Does it have a focus dump? (group DPS) Is it a boar? (soloing)
Pet attack speed normalised sometime during TBC, so whether or not the beastie had a focus dump and a decent damage modifier were the key criteria for raid suitability. Cats and ravagers ruled the PvE endgame.
Boars had the charge AP boost affecting Growl to give 3-4k threat from their first Growl. Scarily good snap aggro.

3. Incarnation the third: Furious Howl scales too well
Further reduction in pet variation to increase the number of viable choices (intent being that any Ferocity pet will do, but also removing the tree-specific underlying stat variations to make Cunning and Tenacity pets a more reasonable option for casual players). Focus of player theorycrafting moves to the pet family abilities and the hunter AP buff from Furious Howl scales too well with the hunter's other gear and makes a mess of pet family balance. Devilsaurs, cats, raptors and spirit beasts put up a decent fight, but the gear synergy ultimately defeats them.

4. Incarnation the fourth: where to from here?

A very important thing to keep in mind: hunters are only 1 class out of 10. Any time spent trying to balance wildly different pet families is time that will only benefit hunters. The devs *know* they can balance hunter pets perfectly by making the family choice purely cosmetic. Create family abilities that do not directly affect pet or hunter DPS (except perhaps in filling in for missing raid buffs or debuffs). Allow selection of pet talent tree, or else create a unified pet talent tree that allows the player to select from DPS, survivability and utility talents for their pet. Hunters will finally be completely free to use whatever pet they want without fearing they are hurting their combat effectiveness, but other players will be upset that a "meaningful" choice (i.e. looking up "what's the highest DPS pet?" on EJ) has been taken away from them. Other players will object to the "silliness" of a turtle being able to DPS just as well as a giant jungle cat.

Going the near-total normalisation route *has* to be a constant temptation for the devs, because it would eliminate a fairly significant source of headaches for them and reduce the complaints to purely stylistic ones instead of game balance ones.

There are other steps that fall short of that though, and Cataclysm gives Blizzard an opportunity to experiment with them. For a minimal change, just give Furious Howl the Thunderstomp treatment (possible redefining Call of the Wild to work the way Furious Howl does). For a more significant change, allow pet tree selection.