Why is it so hard?

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Tankperson
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Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Tankperson »

Why is it so hard these days to find a group in lfg below lvl 85 where people won't pull for ya? I've been leveling my tank and 4 out of five groups has someone normally a dps that feels your not going fast enough for their like. All this morning that's all I got in the dungeons then getting yelled at "Hey tank want to get aggro off me!" then I love this one "you suck tank can't even pick up aggro." Getting aggro is easy, just not easy if I got one dps pulling one mob one way the healer going the oppsite direction and everyone else running around. I just can't wrap my head around this, you want a tank to do their job but just can't give him/her 3 more seconds for a charge cool down to be up or for mobs to kite closer together. I love my warrior tank I breeze though quests and when I get a good group I love to tank it's just hard I guess to get a good group these days.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Rawr »

If people start doing that while I'm tanking I always say "If you want to pull then you can tank it." Then just move on. Unless the healer is a friend of their's they normally stay with me and we just leave the morons to die. :D I like tanking just not for those people. :mrgreen:

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Azunara »

Yeah, pretty much. If they pull it, they deal with it. After a while people learn to suck it up. If you're otherwise doing your job fine, the group will support you. No one wants to lose a tank--the queue time for a new one is obnoxious.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Xota »

To be devil's advocate, leveling dungeons are a bit of a joke. Groups should be steamrolling them as fast as possible. If I get a tank who is wishy washy on pulls, like they're waiting for something, I'll keep the group moving. If they leave, I have a shield. I don't have a problem with not getting heals because I watch to grab mobs off the healer.

If 80% of your groups are expecting different tanking, then maybe experimenting with tanking styles isn't unwarranted. Ask your healer if they can handle you pulling faster (which may include them having to heal a dps off-tanking a mob) or if you're pulling too fast.

My main's a tank, so I'm not just talking out of my butt. If you don't have your prefered AoE avaliable (eg, in your example Charge I guess), and you can still keep pulling at quick rate. Mark your target with skull so dps get most their threat on your main threat target, and use your other aoe abilities. Don't get upset if someone pulls a different mob off you, it happens sometimes for various reasons. Some of those are bad reasons, some are good. If you do have to wait for a pull, give your reason, like "healer mana" or, "big pull, give me a sec for CDs". When a tank is just sitting around doing nothing, its more likely that they're smoking a bowl or something. Knowing that's not the case will make your dps and healer more patient, and they can give you some possibly useful feedback, like "I'm ok with at least 33% mana", or "its ok, I can OT that caster" or "I'll drop threat if I pull off, let's try to move faster" or "I have misdirect now, I can multishot everything onto you every 30 seconds."

While people may prefer not to lose a tank, a tank that is a prima dona because of that is even more obnoxious.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Tankperson »

I don't consider myself a great tank but I get the job done. What annoys me the most is that as a warrior it's a pain to have run around and grab mobs off dps who don't know if you pull aggro to bring the mob to the tank or atleast meet me half way instead they run around constantly. It's the whole yelling at me for not getting the mob of them sooner that is starting to annoy me. I was in BRC early this morning. A warlock pulled the first boss three times and each time grabbed almost all the adds in that first section. I'm having a hard time getting the adds that aggro to the healer and getting out of the massive one shot aoe that boss is doing we wipe three times and they are constantly yelling at me to pick up the adds.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Lupis »

I'm of two minds on this! Though really, I agree with Xota. From the perspective of a DPS, a slow tank that doesn't talk is not a friendly presence, and you start to get a sort of rebellious spirit to you. My biggest suggestion is the same as Xota's- talk to the group. Ask the healer if you want to do big pulls. Experiment on how fast you can move.

That said, I always get massively pissed when I'm playing a tank and people pull for me. Generally I just try to pull faster, though, and ask that they please don't pull. If they keep being jerks, I might point it out to the group, or just let them tank it and move on.

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by cowmuflage »

DPS that don't listen to what the tank says and constantly pull are generally asses.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Lisaara »

Xota wrote:To be devil's advocate, leveling dungeons are a bit of a joke. Groups should be steamrolling them as fast as possible. If I get a tank who is wishy washy on pulls, like they're waiting for something, I'll keep the group moving. If they leave, I have a shield. I don't have a problem with not getting heals because I watch to grab mobs off the healer.

If 80% of your groups are expecting different tanking, then maybe experimenting with tanking styles isn't unwarranted. Ask your healer if they can handle you pulling faster (which may include them having to heal a dps off-tanking a mob) or if you're pulling too fast.

My main's a tank, so I'm not just talking out of my butt. If you don't have your prefered AoE avaliable (eg, in your example Charge I guess), and you can still keep pulling at quick rate. Mark your target with skull so dps get most their threat on your main threat target, and use your other aoe abilities. Don't get upset if someone pulls a different mob off you, it happens sometimes for various reasons. Some of those are bad reasons, some are good. If you do have to wait for a pull, give your reason, like "healer mana" or, "big pull, give me a sec for CDs". When a tank is just sitting around doing nothing, its more likely that they're smoking a bowl or something. Knowing that's not the case will make your dps and healer more patient, and they can give you some possibly useful feedback, like "I'm ok with at least 33% mana", or "its ok, I can OT that caster" or "I'll drop threat if I pull off, let's try to move faster" or "I have misdirect now, I can multishot everything onto you every 30 seconds."

While people may prefer not to lose a tank, a tank that is a prima dona because of that is even more obnoxious.
Not to be mean, but this type of player(atleast playing devils advocate) that makes me AFRAID to tank. If I'm tanking, I am a nervous tank at first. I should not have to bend to anyones whim. If you pull before I do, you're on your own and I make that clear. If it was just an accident, that's different. If I'm not going fast enough, too bad. I'm not here to please everyone. I'm here to do the dungeon my way and learn how to tank before I hit 90 and feel comfortable with my tanking style.

Either go at the tanks pace, or ask politely to go faster. Don't be a bugger and start pulling willy nilly just cause you don't like the speed or demand they go faster to appease you. You dont know if the tank is new or not.

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Anyia »

You yank it, you tank it. And you're on best-effort heals in that case.

Now of course, if you play a hunter, that's something that can be used to the group's benefit with some ad-hoc pet tanking/healing when needed (or if not needed, then only with the tank's agreement - noone likes chasing down mobs unnecessarily). Have I mentioned how much I loved the sheer utility of the hunter class? =)
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Tankperson »

I do talk to them the first instant we move in I try to tell them that if I'm not pulling right away means I'm waiting for a cool down normally on charge. As a warrior I try to pull as often and as quickly as I feel comfortable. I'll pull 2 maybe three trash packs each time depending on the number and how well the first couple went with the heals. If I feel the heals are having trouble keeping up I don't pull as much. I've played both roles before and as another has said I'm a nervous tank and a heals even more so.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Castile »

Junrei wrote:Not to be mean, but this type of player(atleast playing devils advocate) that makes me AFRAID to tank. If I'm tanking, I am a nervous tank at first. I should not have to bend to anyones whim. If you pull before I do, you're on your own and I make that clear. If it was just an accident, that's different. If I'm not going fast enough, too bad. I'm not here to please everyone. I'm here to do the dungeon my way and learn how to tank before I hit 90 and feel comfortable with my tanking style.

Either go at the tanks pace, or ask politely to go faster. Don't be a bugger and start pulling willy nilly just cause you don't like the speed or demand they go faster to appease you. You dont know if the tank is new or not.
I agree. I played a tank since vanilla and really if the tanks too slow tough biccies. You spank it, you tank it. when i play a dps and I know the tanks learning its no big deal. As a tank if you want to pull mobs thats cool but I'm not gonna taunt them off if you pull them. They learn pretty quick ;)

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Mozag »

I tend to keep a decent pace when I tank, but I do not like making massive, pointless pulls just to appease the impatient DPS and healers. I tank as many as I feel comfortable with and feel I actually CAN tank. I see red as soon as people start pulling, especially since I'm not slow at all. I figure that they can pull at whatever speed they like the moment they are playing their own tank; when I am tanking it is my prerogative to make the sort of pulls I want - provided I keep an eye on my healer and what they are capable of. People tend to forget not everyone is an old timer with confidence as good as their heirlooms. It took me a long time and many tanks that I deleted in desperation before I found the confidence to continue doing my own thing. Most groups are okay, and even some eager pullers stop when asked politely. Unfortunately now and then you find the worst possible scum, and you just need to breathe deeply and either finish it your own way, or leave and find another more appreciative group.

Even in a separate role I hate tanks that indiscriminately pull and don't loot and don't give a crap if the healer is out of LoS or far from them, mistaking their own abilities and dying when being beaten on by twenty mobs. As a healer I believe my job is stick to my tank, but if they choose to run across the dungeon pulling willy-nilly, then that's fine as long as they can keep themselves up. Some can, most can't. Even as a tank I loot, because that is my right. I do dungeons because I ENJOY them, not because I want to run other people to 90 in one day.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Myrrmi »

Oh yes, I know this all to wel...

I have two macros for when I tank and heal. The healing one came first, after I've zoned into the pinacle of storms only to find my group has already wiped on the first group of trash and was all "where's teh heals!!11oneone". Mind you, I was playing on a bit of an old rig back then, so my loading screens took a bit longer than standard.

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Arthur »

I cannot tank because of this. It makes me so nervous and angry, I just won't do it anymore.

More often than not I would get blamed for being a s*** tank because some impatient brat was pulling a boatload of adds.

Ugh.. :s

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Boven »

This is why I've given up leveling another tank. The early dungeons really don't require a tank. (had a 'boomkin tank' for SFK when I was working on an alt last week. He got vote kicked and a warlock bluberry and my hunter's tallstrider tanked all the bosses until a real tank joined in just before the last one). You really can pull huge numbers of mobs at once. As the difficulty increases, though, folks expect things to remain the same with big pulls. Then some dps gets impatient and pulls stuff, things go bad and then they claim it's either the tank or healer's fault.

I've always been a careful tank, starting with moderate sized pulls and then increasing them until I can figure out what the dps and heals can handle. That doesn't go over very well a lot of the time. I'd rather the instance take 5 or 10 minutes longer with controlled progress than risk it taking forever due to frequent wipes.

I won't even touch lfr as a tank. Folks are just insane in there.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Makoes »

"You pull it, you tank it"
Whether I am playing a tank, healer or dps that rule applies.
If I (as dps or healer) accidentally pull something, I go stand on top of the tank. I've had many people comment to me about how "smart" that is and that they wish more people would do that.
As a tank I usually let people know that I am still learning to tank and if they could please not pull. Some groups listen, others don't.

As a healer I have a basic outlook. if the tank is doing his job, I focus heal him. if the tank is running non-stop pulling everything...well, I tend to stick with the group so that we can at least kill everything when the oor/los tank goes splat.

mixed skilled groups I play by ear. but if there is a dps that insists upon pulling wtf they feel like, I don't heal them. When they yell at me I always answer "you do your job, I do mine, but if you want to do the tanks job you're on your own."

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Tankperson »

I've actually been pretty lucky as of late. The last few groups I've gotten in the mid 80's have been pretty good about it. One rogue who did the whole "go go go" thing. I told her simple "you say that again, I will drop group and you can wait for another tank." she stopped saying it and it went very smoothly after that. One bad pull but we surived it and a hunter that followed the stealthed rogue and face pulled and died.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Krysteena »

This is what keeps me from daring spec my druid as a tank as well as feral. I applaud those who are still playing tanks. I'd have blown up all of Azeroth if I were a tank :lol:

Personally, I don't pull unless I see the tank attacking it. I follow the strict rule of 'don't attack it unless the tank can handle it' I'm too scared of messing up in groups. I barely group with people unless I strongly know what I'm doing or I know people in the group.

If someone decides to pull a mob, I just leave them to it. Let them to what they want. Unless the tank decides he/she can handle it, I don't want to risk a wipe. I've gone tank in emergency situations only, and they were really low level dungeons back when my druid was a baby. All I can say is...never again. Never. Ever. Again.
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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by Smyelmdar »

Yeah, it's very annoying.
When I tank and someone keeps pulling, I just ignore them. And if they whine about it I tell them not to pull. After that they can yell all they want. I'll just ignore it.
As a healer if the DPS is pulling over and over, I stop healing them. If they whine, I tell them not to pull. And as before I ignore their cries after that.
Never been kicked for it. :P
As for the rushing tanks. If I'm a healer I usually leave the group when there are tanks like that. It's too stressfull for me.

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Re: Why is it so hard?

Unread post by peanutbuttercup »

Part of the problem right now is tanks really aren't needed in all dungeon situations. So some DPS probably get antsy and figure they can tank if the tank isn't going their speed.

At the lowest levels there's very little difference between roles and specs. And at the higher levels, like with the current level 90 heroic dungeons, they're so easy that DPS can solo them. I even see DPS tanking normal 10m SoO raid trash (I know I've done it, but only after someone else started it and died).

As a courtesy I don't pull ahead of the tank unless there really is some sort of problem, but not everyone has patience or manners.
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