The downfall of raiding as BM?

[Slickrock]

Now mind you, this is specifically regarding raiding as BM. BM is fine for soloing, 5-mans, etc.

BM appears to have 3 (or 4) new problems that were introduced in 4.2.

1) Sic'Em bugfix/nerf. There was a "bug" that was allowing pets to get much more focus. With that "fixed" pets are doing anywhere from 5-20% less dps, depending on your focus regen and your pet spec (primarly with WildHunt points).

2) Pets are far more suspectible to AOE in Firelands. My pet is dying much more often. So a second dps loss.

3) The new stances are causing pets to run around a lot more, and not stay on target. Also a dps loss.

So, for my setup and gear, I was seeing a ~10% dps loss (from around 17k down to 15k, by rough comparisons). So I'm trying out SV. If I can get it where I want it, BM might be relegated to my soloing spec. I'm finally tired of fighting the treatment of BM as a raiding spec. I just am too tired to fight for it anymore.

[Loffter]

Now mind you, this is specifically regarding raiding as BM. BM is fine for soloing, 5-mans, etc.

BM appears to have 3 (or 4) new problems that were introduced in 4.2.

1) Sic'Em bugfix/nerf. There was a "bug" that was allowing pets to get much more focus. With that "fixed" pets are doing anywhere from 5-20% less dps, depending on your focus regen and your pet spec (primarly with WildHunt points).

2) Pets are far more suspectible to AOE in Firelands. My pet is dying much more often. So a second dps loss.

3) The new stances are causing pets to run around a lot more, and not stay on target. Also a dps loss.

So, for my setup and gear, I was seeing a ~10% dps loss (from around 17k down to 15k, by rough comparisons). So I'm trying out SV. If I can get it where I want it, BM might be relegated to my soloing spec. I'm finally tired of fighting the treatment of BM as a raiding spec. I just am too tired to fight for it anymore.

1) The Sic'em nerf, I can see being a problem.

2) Pets being suceptable to AoE just means you have to possition them well. I've been playing BM since before pets got all the cool "Lol aoe" stuff. I fought hakkar, rag, all of those bosses as BM (knowing my dps wasnt as good as other specs), and managed to consistantly keep my pets alive. It's doable, and it's what makes the spec more fun.

3) I've never, ever used the stances. On rare occasions when out soloing I would turn on agressive, but I 99% of the time keep my pet on passive, and I have hunters mark macroed to my pet attack, and it's on Q. Tank pulls, I target the dps target, press Q, and my pet goes in. When the next target dies, I tab to the next tarter, press Q, then Shift + E for serpent sting, which triggers autoshot, and I rotate from there.

So basically, it's just like it's always been for hunters. The spec is playable, it's not optimal but it has it's perks (raid wipe prevention, buffs, debuffs, etc), and overall you just have to have the trust of your raiding group. They have to respect your decision and know you know what you are doing. Only one of your reasons is an applicable reason as to why BM falls behind, the others are just huntard reasons (Not saying you are one).

[Slickrock]

2) Pets being suceptable to AoE just means you have to possition them well. I've been playing BM since before pets got all the cool "Lol aoe" stuff. I fought hakkar, rag, all of those bosses as BM (knowing my dps wasnt as good as other specs), and managed to consistantly keep my pets alive. It's doable, and it's what makes the spec more fun.

3) I've never, ever used the stances. On rare occasions when out soloing I would turn on agressive, but I 99% of the time keep my pet on passive, and I have hunters mark macroed to my pet attack, and it's on Q. Tank pulls, I target the dps target, press Q, and my pet goes in. When the next target dies, I tab to the next tarter, press Q, then Shift + E for serpent sting, which triggers autoshot, and I rotate from there.

Regarding #2, there are certainly instances where positioning doesn't help. The mini-surger guys in the FL trash are a good example. They tick for such a high rate that you either loose dps keeping them alive, or by having them at your side. Pets are clearly taking a lot more damage in FL.

Regarding #3, I used aggressive to keep my pet on target, still managing him. Never had a problem with that. Using all the stances doesn't make you a huntard. Not knowing how to use them does.

[Loffter]

2) Pets being suceptable to AoE just means you have to possition them well. I've been playing BM since before pets got all the cool "Lol aoe" stuff. I fought hakkar, rag, all of those bosses as BM (knowing my dps wasnt as good as other specs), and managed to consistantly keep my pets alive. It's doable, and it's what makes the spec more fun.

3) I've never, ever used the stances. On rare occasions when out soloing I would turn on agressive, but I 99% of the time keep my pet on passive, and I have hunters mark macroed to my pet attack, and it's on Q. Tank pulls, I target the dps target, press Q, and my pet goes in. When the next target dies, I tab to the next tarter, press Q, then Shift + E for serpent sting, which triggers autoshot, and I rotate from there.

Regarding #2, there are certainly instances where positioning doesn't help. The mini-surger guys in the FL trash are a good example. They tick for such a high rate that you either loose dps keeping them alive, or by having them at your side. Pets are clearly taking a lot more damage in FL.

Regarding #3, I used aggressive to keep my pet on target, still managing him. Never had a problem with that. Using all the stances doesn't make you a huntard. Not knowing how to use them does.

Well again, I wasnt calling you a huntard. I was just saying those were the reasons. Like, if someone says you cant join a group for X reason its because they ran with a huntard that ruined their opinion of whatever.

And I disagree with the stance thing. There's no reason to use them, ever. You can control where your pet moves and what they attack with precision, why would you ever leave it up to the AI, which is very faulty?

And lastly, I feel that the utility you bring to a raid/heroic outweighs the occasional DPS loss you take when something happens with your pet. well, maybe not outweighs, more like compensates.

[Kurenio]

People are still claiming this? even after the nerfs to BM I'm still out dpsing MM hunters.... I may be the god of BM hunters if thats what you want to claim, but at the moment BM is far from dead when it comes to raiding. On certain fights it may be near impossible (those fights where your pet cannot get to the target), but on other fights this is far from the case. I've always been BM and it will stay that way.

Sorry to all the haters out there who want to change me, but that's just not going to happen.

And I'll get even if your personal DPS falls a little would you rather the entire raids dps fall by 3% to up your dps by 2k? or would you rather have that low dps give everyone a 3% damage buff as well as many other buffs that maybe needed in any situation.

[Loffter]

People are still claiming this? even after the nerfs to BM I'm still out dpsing MM hunters.... I may be the god of BM hunters if thats what you want to claim, but at the moment BM is far from dead when it comes to raiding. On certain fights it may be near impossible (those fights where your pet cannot get to the target), but on other fights this is far from the case. I've always been BM and it will stay that way.

Sorry to all the haters out there who want to change me, but that's just not going to happen.

And I'll get even if your personal DPS falls a little would you rather the entire raids dps fall by 3% to up your dps by 2k? or would you rather have that low dps give everyone a 3% damage buff as well as many other buffs that maybe needed in any situation.

Oh my god, right? I got into a huge fight with my guild back in the days of BC, because of ferocious insperation. We went into a raid with me as BM, and I had FI up. After a boss, they posted meters and I was like #5, there was another hunter above me, and they said "See? If you were marksman, yould be up there with him." And my response was "Yeah ok, So take the entire raid's dps during that fight, subtract 3% from there, and add it to my %, because I provided it.

And no amount of logic would make that fight end in my favor. And believe me, I fought. Hard.

[Shade]

I've been doing a lot of FL trash runs, and I've not had any problem keeping Gojira (King Krush-Devilsaur), Hatsu (Ban'thalos-Spirit Beast) and Rend (purple raptor), the three pets I use the most in those places alive at all.

For the turtles, corehound, snake-people, elementals and spiders I use either Gojira or Rend.

For the fire guy-cannot recall the name right now-who does the massive AOE, I switch over to my spirit beast, keep mend pet up and he usually will stay alive without much trouble at all. I don't notice much of a dip in those fights while I am constantly healing when needed.

But I've not done the bosses yet there. Even though, I really think it is just a matter of how you play and what your main focus is. If you want to provide a decent DPS and keep giving the raid a nice buff via one of your pets, then run as a BM. If you are focused only on having the highest DPS in the raid group, then go MM or SV. Its all about priorities.

[Ziarre]

I'm still kicking ass, taking names, and impressing my guildies. :B One even keeps her alt hunter BM since I do so well with it!

[Makoes]

I've yet to come across most of the issues of the firt post. My pet remains very much alive, as for assist stance, I find it best when using it to just target something else when my current target is about to drop. Pet goes from one target to the next without running back that way. On fights with lots of mobs after I've opened up, I'll toss in a multi-shot and then go back to rotation.

As for pets dying, toss a mend pet on em every so often and they live just fine. If your pet is taking to much damage, then just put them on passive with a mend pet for a few seconds while you pew pew, then send em back in, a few second dps loss from a pet is far better then the full dps loss of having to stop and revive your pet. Or from leaving your pet dead for the rest of the fight.

Its just learning the full ins/outs of your class, and adapting to the situations and changes. Every class has its nerfs/buffs/changes, and every class learns to adapt.
I have always been, and always will be BM, whether solo, dungeon, raiding or pvp. I know I provide a nice buff to everyone, and my pet as well, and I usually come in at about 3rd on the dps chart, above well better geared players, and just under the awsomely raid geared hunter and rogue.

[Ziarre]

I know the packs he's talking about his pet dying on...for those, there's simply no recourse but to keep your pet on passive and only send it in on the smaller mobs. The big one lays a nasty dot on nearby pets/players, and it's hard to keep a pet up with Mend Pet alone once they get it. The rest of Firelands trash, so far, I've had little issue with.

[Kurenio]

If your talking about trash dps... well trash dps doesn't matter.... i /afk brain on trash lol

[Lisaara]

People are still claiming this? even after the nerfs to BM I'm still out dpsing MM hunters.... I may be the god of BM hunters if thats what you want to claim, but at the moment BM is far from dead when it comes to raiding. On certain fights it may be near impossible (those fights where your pet cannot get to the target), but on other fights this is far from the case. I've always been BM and it will stay that way.

Sorry to all the haters out there who want to change me, but that's just not going to happen.

And I'll get even if your personal DPS falls a little would you rather the entire raids dps fall by 3% to up your dps by 2k? or would you rather have that low dps give everyone a 3% damage buff as well as many other buffs that maybe needed in any situation.

^ This

There is no downfall. It's actually rising. Tis all in your mind. :3