My wish that will never come true: Neutrality

Andine · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 6:04 pm

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5149541595

This thread made me think of one of my main gripes with WoW, its recent story and organisation. The shoe-horning of everything and everyone into the faction war. All it led to was instead of making both factions likeable, it made them both absolutely despicable - from Alliance which suddenly forgets Light and nobility and starts slaughtering villages full of civilians, to Horde which for some reason is on its way to go back to First/Second War kind of atrocities.

The character of mine that I most identify myself with is an Argent Crusader, a draenei paladin. While his family died to orcs, he's smart enough to know what kind of influence possessed them back then and that modern orcs often had nothing to do with that time. Because he never felt any sort of ties to the Alliance, he joined the then Argent Dawn as soon as he saw their actions in the Plaguelands and never looked back - especially as Alliance was only going down since, with the new leadership and a human king who usurps the title of a king of races thousands times older than him and his whole city.

Maybe that's a bit of a RP story here, but draenei in general have very flimsy reasons to stick with the Alliance. Similarly, trolls and tauren are on the edge with the way the Horde is going, and the new race - Pandaren - should probably just take two steps back as soon as they hear Garrosh's racist ranting (instead of welcoming them) or when Varian tells them to forget their family and friends for his personal war (and laughs at being hit/shot in the face - which isn't evil but just batshit crazy). The general consensus? A lot of characters have absolutely no reasons to support this war.

The solution I had since a while - and which the OP of the thread I linked seems to also support - is an option to drop the faction you spawn with (for a price) and join a neutral faction, like the Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle or Earthen Ring. That would allow you to cities of both factions, interact with players and NPCs of both, and would force your PvP flag to be down at all times. I imagine it could be undoable, but only once, and with no coming back to neutrality.

So, I was curious, are there any other people completely disillusioned with the portrayal of both factions and would prefer remaining neutral, even if it meant losing the ability to do PvP on that char?

GormanGhaste · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 7:32 pm

Sign me up. I've always preferred the neutral factions, and the faction strife in so many of the new 1-60 story lines is just awful.

My dream is that the story arc of this expansion is the Pandaren bringing the rest of us back in balance, ending the faction war.

cowmuflage · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 7:46 pm

No not really. I think we need the faction war it's world of warcraft after all. Yes we fight other threats but it's allways been about the war between the two factions and taking away that would not be a good thing.

Andine · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 8:03 pm

cowmuflage wrote:

No not really. I think we need the faction war it's world of warcraft after all. Yes we fight other threats but it's allways been about the war between the two factions and taking away that would not be a good thing.

I always found the "It's world of WARcraft" argument funny. So the war against the Scourge, Legion or Old Gods is not a war? Does a war have to include killing innocent mortals who were ordered to kill you by someone on a personal vendetta? Because that's the current AvH war is: it started when a human king made a racist remark and tried to shift the blame of a particular atrocity on a member of a race he was prejudiced against. Then it was made worse when a racist on the other side became the ruler. While the original instigator has somewhat mellowed out, the other side is only getting worse.

Also, was it always war between two factions? As a person who really started with WarCraft III, I fell in love with that game because of its final message, one perfectly worded much later by Tirion Fordring - "only by working together, can we succeed". WC3 brought the factions together, and showed everyone who thought otherwise was wrong - including people like Daelin Proudmoore (who paid for his prejudices with his life), Grom Hellscream (who sacrificed himself for a better future) or Arthas (who became a complete monster). That's the message that brought in many players, who very likely are still there in numbers, after Wrath repeated this message... before Angrathar at least.
And even vanilla WoW had little to no faction warfare. While there were PvP quests, they were rare and far between and you didn't get any sort of urgency or threat from the other faction unless you sought it yourself. That means, for all the people who joined from WC3 to Wrath, the essence of Warcraft is not "orcs vs humans", but "we must stand together" - and I wish that those people were given an option to stand back from this war.

cowmuflage · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 8:06 pm

I did not say those were not wars sheesh thats what "yes we fight other threats" was saying. I was merely saying what I think.

Bonita · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 8:17 pm

I think it could be a fun option for possibly RP realms.

Junrei · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 8:35 pm

I'd love to be neutral. Most of my characters are. Jessibelle is Alliance but Jetfyre? Talu? Lisa? Nope. Neutral.

Neilaren · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 10:00 pm

Oh, I gripe about it to myself all the time. I get that the basis of the game requires the two separate factions, but even when you had, say, Scryers vs. Aldor, at least they knew how to be diplomatic with each other when it counted; sure there's some people on each side willing to duke it out in Eye of the Storm or whatever, but that's not supposed to be all of them. A lot of story lately seems to be "aggression for the sake of gameplay mechanics", and then every time the two sides start being friendly (and I'm going "Aw, yeah! Character development!") something gets shoehorned in to destroy it all.

I remember saying this in the Garrosh/Warchief thread, but I enjoy designing characters, so when character development starts going somewhere and then just stops and immediately starts back at the original state, it bothers me.

Neilaren has always been a Neutral Good entity in my mind (Your average forest ranger "yay nature and animals" type). She lives on a tradesman's instincts, so she has more in common with a goblin or ethereal than she does with, say, the Sin'dorei or the Horde. So, in my mind, it's not a stretch to see her communicating with and even hanging around members of the Alliance. Her only real reason to be Horde (aside from, well, I HAVE to be in-game) is because her family is still alive and kicking in Silvermoon.

If they gave such a neutral option, I'd probably go for it. And I wouldn't mind losing out on PvP... because I don't really do it, anyway.

Kalliope · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 10:04 pm

Neutral? Sure.

Giving up my right to kill everyone else? Don't think so.

Being attached to neither the Alliance nor the Horde doesn't mean you're a peaceable sort.

cowmuflage · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 11:24 pm

Kalliope wrote:

Neutral? Sure.

Giving up my right to kill everyone else? Don't think so.

Being attached to neither the Alliance nor the Horde doesn't mean you're a peaceable sort.

Would be fun to say join the Grimtotem tribe or like the Twilight cult or something. That would be fun!

Aleu · **Posted:** Fri May 25, 2012 11:43 pm

I always wondered what it would be like if you could choose a neutral option for your toons. Although I'm not giving up my ability to kill people in PVP, there are some people on Horde side I'd be more then happy to kill. >.>

Wain · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 1:09 am

I couldn't agree more. There are certain races that really have to be "shoehorned in" as you said, to be made to fit. I couldn't imagine that the draenei, who are at heart a pacifist people with a wise leader and were fleeing to find a new home, would immediately take sides in a planetary conflict as soon as they arrived. On the other faction, when I first started a Tauren I loved it up to the point I reached the Barrens. Then for me the story just shattered when I'm suddenly being recruited to spread toxic poisons for a race of walking corpses and help orcs clear-fell forests and kill the elves who live in them. It just felt like it went against everything the player is taught about the Tauren up to that point. One minute you're a peace-loving conservationist, the next you without question turn mercenary. Those are just two examples that stuck in my head, out of many.

However, to be fair, I also accept that the story of WoW is secondary to the playability of the MMO. And sometimes a thin explanation is all that can be given for something they badly want to implement in gameplay. I also accept that it's not great literature or even a very original story, so I don't get my heart broken over it. In this particular MMO the story is there to facilitate the game world and the gameplay itself is primary. In novel terms I'd say the story is pulp. And I don't mean that as criticism, just that it's the kind of game that it is.

GormanGhaste · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 7:10 am

cowmuflage wrote:

Would be fun to say join the Twilight cult. That would be fun!

*slips cowmuflage a pamphlet*

Sukurachi · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 7:38 am

creating a third (or even a fourth) faction, with a different dynamic to the original two, would be game-changing.

it would also probably be too huge an undertaking.

but MAN! would it ever keep WoW relevant! Are there any other MMOs that have multiple factions with complex interrelations?

I can see it as immensely difficult to implement, however. it would almost redefine the entire game.

Andine · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 7:45 am

Kalliope wrote:

Being attached to neither the Alliance nor the Horde doesn't mean you're a peaceable sort.

It's just that WoW PvP is completely organised around the conflict between those two factions. If you wash your hands from that war, you basically have no reason to join a battleground or do world PvP. Maybe arenas or the PvA areas (think the Gurubashi Arena in Stranglethorn) would be still available, but in general, there'd be little PvP left.

I'm currently imagining there would be a "recruiter" NPC for most major neutral factions (say, Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle, Earthen Ring, Steamwheedle Cartel - maybe even the Black Prince, to become a personal crony of Wrathion). The NPC would give you papers to get signed by the leader of your current faction (so Varian or Garrosh/whoever replaces him), who in turn demands a price to pay for your dismissal. With those signed, you go to the faction's leader (Tirion, Malfurion in Hyjal, Thrall over the Maelstrom, Baron Revilgaz, Wrathion, etc.) and hand those in, with a message that this will forfeit most PvP forms and will be undoable only once. With that done, congratulations, you can now group up with and talk to players of both factions.

Sukurachi · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 11:00 am

making a real "neutral" faction would really screw up the way Blizz has limited transfers of items and gold from faction to faction.
I'm not so sure that a playable neutral faction would be able to get away with absolute neutrality versus both Horde and Alliance. Realistically, both factions could, and probably should, view you as a traitor or a deserter. Meaning it would be realistic to have both of those factions limit the amount of interaction you could have with their citizenry.

A real neutral player faction would require a new capital city with all of its inherent infrastructures. I could easily see this as a distinct city like Dalaran, without having the need for an entire starter zone to go with it (I presume that to switch to this neutral faction would have a certain level requirement, thus negating the need for a starter zone).

Andine · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 2:27 pm

Sukurachi wrote:

making a real "neutral" faction would really screw up the way Blizz has limited transfers of items and gold from faction to faction.
I'm not so sure that a playable neutral faction would be able to get away with absolute neutrality versus both Horde and Alliance. Realistically, both factions could, and probably should, view you as a traitor or a deserter. Meaning it would be realistic to have both of those factions limit the amount of interaction you could have with their citizenry.

A real neutral player faction would require a new capital city with all of its inherent infrastructures. I could easily see this as a distinct city like Dalaran, without having the need for an entire starter zone to go with it (I presume that to switch to this neutral faction would have a certain level requirement, thus negating the need for a starter zone).

Is Tirion considered a traitor? Is Thrall? They're the people who left to join a neutral, allied organisation - it's like UN, so members of the chief staff of UN are not considered traitors in any respect, just as the numerous neutral organisations on Azeroth. Argent Crusaders and Cenarion druids (and memebers of many other organisations) are not only welcome in both Alliance and Horde cities, but usually people are very friendly to them as allies - unless they meet some stupid fanatical Orc who hates anything that doesn't look like him.

Though an additional, neutral capital wouldn't be too far-fetched - say, have the Argent Crusade officially retake Stratholme and add all the necessary trappings of a capital there. That's all if Shattrath, Dalaran, Booty Bay and other cities are not enough.

As for problems with economy, yeah, that's probably one of the reasons this wish will never happen - not because it's an insurmountable obstacle, but because Blizzard would not be willing to deal with stuff like this.

cowmuflage · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 4:20 pm

I'd hate it if they retook Stratholme. I mean where would people famr that mount? :lol:

Kalliope · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 4:53 pm

Andine wrote:

Kalliope wrote:

Being attached to neither the Alliance nor the Horde doesn't mean you're a peaceable sort.

It's just that WoW PvP is completely organised around the conflict between those two factions. If you wash your hands from that war, you basically have no reason to join a battleground or do world PvP. Maybe arenas or the PvA areas (think the Gurubashi Arena in Stranglethorn) would be still available, but in general, there'd be little PvP left.

Arena pits you against people of your own faction too. It should absolutely remain available.

There are always reasons to kill people in world PvP - self-preservation and personal circumstances. You don't have to have a political reason to kill someone. How many times have I wanted to take a potshot at another alliance player who stole my node? Oh yes, world PvP would be even more appealing as a neutral.

The battleground issue could be fixed if you have to queue for a side. You won't be able to see what's going on until you're in there, so there's no foul play.

I do believe that covers everything.

Andine · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 6:28 pm

cowmuflage wrote:

I'd hate it if they retook Stratholme. I mean where would people famr that mount? :lol:

If I was to do that, I'd leave the instance available through some backdoor (I mean, *another* backdoor, not the backdoor backdoor that's currently there).

As I said, I believe arenas would be doable, BGs only in the War Games (because really, an Argent Crusader or Cenarion druid has no interest in fighting Horde). I re-thought world PvP and I think that if a neutral player would flag himself, he'd go PvA (free for all). Neutrals also wouldn't get flagged accidentally, because they would be able to drop their flag only by manually doing it or attacking a player under PvA flag - so flagged Hordes would remain neutral and unattackable, but other flagged neutrals would be the "risk".

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My wish that will never come true: Neutrality

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