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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:24 am 
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So today I finally decided to take the plunge and bring my two Alliance hunters through the Broken Isles scenario (and then off to get their artifact weapons).

I've gone through it as Horde a number of times, but really needed to see what happened from the Alliance side.

You know what? The biggest thing I feel is sadness at the bitterness, and hatred, and misunderstanding, and intolerance that both sides have shown toward each other.

It was great seeing the events unfold from the opposite side of the great divide. Though I will always be truly Horde at heart, it was important to understand both sides.

In a way, it was like when Garona stabbed king Wrynn in Warcraft. It was a necessity, but neither side understood the significance of the event because they weren't privy to the reason why. And what comes of it? Years of hatred and conflict.

:cry:

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:12 am 
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Sadly, the conflict in question has turned out to be a very token and shallow thing in the end. It abruptly starts brewing again in Stormheim, and as suddenly drops off the face of Azeroth to never be mentioned again, ever, and be brought up only through Warden Towers.

On my Blood Elf hunter I follow the orders of the Warchief and attack Gilnean objects, only to retun to Class Order Hall and interact peacefully with the Worgen quatermaster (who stands in PvP armor!). Participant of the Purge of Dalaran, bane of the Alliance (named through Prestige quest) chats sweetly with Vereesa Windrunner and Shandris Feathermoon while sitting in very distinctively Night Elven place. Totally gameplay related, but I did Stormheim first, and so, on the high point of that new conflict, went to Val'sharah... and quested under two Alliance leaders and at a slightly later point also rushed off to help Exodar.

When I saw the Broken Shore (both versions) during pre-event, I'd sort of hoped Blizzard will follow through with the storyline, show us how factions go from open hostility to grudgingly working together against a great threat and then, finally, that due to such drastic differences in structure and races the Horde and Alliance can at beast be in a shaky fragile peace with local fightings occuring here and there and both sides closing their eyes to them. Instead, from Horde PoV, in one zone we have the open hostility (Stormheim), in another - grudgingly working together (Val'sharah), and in the rest relative peace with local fightings around. And those who play through latest Nightfallen story arcs get to see continued coordinated efforts between Red and Blue.

TL;DR: It would have been a very interesting, if bitter, side of WoW were Blizzard actually wanting to explore it and do what they mentioned pre-release (conflict raging on, heroes uniting into Class Order Halls being sick of it and to get things done). As is it, however, it is very contained and chopped off piece of a story with no conclusion or consequences. There was no Sylvanas vs. Greymane in Trial of Valor, they won't be in 7.1.5 and it doesn't seem like we'd get to them in 7.2 as well, instead following Xe'ra and Illidan "The Redeemer and Savior, Child of Light and Darkness" Stormrage.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:20 am 
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Is there seriously not even one single Alliance character at all who stopped and asked 'Maybe there was a reason the Horde left?' Like, for real, genuinely asking, not trolling or throwing faction hate, I really want to know. Was there even just one? One at all? Or did the entire faction whole heartedly make an assumption?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:06 am 
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Kayb wrote:
Is there seriously not even one single Alliance character at all who stopped and asked 'Maybe there was a reason the Horde left?' Like, for real, genuinely asking, not trolling or throwing faction hate, I really want to know. Was there even just one? One at all? Or did the entire faction whole heartedly make an assumption?


That was exactly what I thought.
I wished my character could have screamed it out.
There was an incredible degree of bigotry in the automatic assumption of betrayal, and Jaina's little tantrums afterwards REALLY made me dislike her even more than when she was storming around Dalaran killing everything that moved (that long quest chain that started in Krasarang Wilds, and ended up rewarding a mount).
And as much as I really love my few Worgen toons, and the story and lore, I absolutely LOATHE Genn Greymane after his little rage speech.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:42 am 
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As far as I can tell, the Alliance chicanery in Broken Isles is 100% Genn and what's-her-face Admiral Hates-The-Horde; at some point either during the Broken Shore follow-up questline, the royal summons, or the out-of-game pre-Legion comic, Anduin mentions that he understands why Genn (and/or Jaina) have it in for the Horde, but that there's "got to be a better way" or some such. Rogers is actively anti-Horde and has never been otherwise (that we players have ever seen), and Greymane's primary beef is with the Forsaken specifically; I don't think that the "unofficial mission" detailed on the Skyfire review part of the Stormheim opening would have ended in the slugging match and inter-faction hostilities it did had Rogers not been captaining (fleet admiraling?) the flagship. Well, and if Greymane hadn't been there, but a different captain/admiral may have argued tactics/orders with him instead of just being like "heck yeah let's do it" :|

Which begs the question, how well does Anduin know Rogers and her agenda? Personal hunch is that even if he does know her well (personally or by reputation) it's been sort of drown out in his other concerns; whether they will ever follow up on it either way is an open question, given that they need something to stir the pot and Jaina has been written off as a dreadlord insane by players on both sides by now.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:55 am 
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Having played both sides for years, they use this device for a great deal of faction conflict storylines, i.e. both sides are partly at fault and each misunderstanding the actions of the other. I guess they have to, really, in order to keep players from both sides feeling like they're a part of something righteous.

Having said that, the bulk of the times in Horde where I felt I was doing something REALLY wrong were in Forsaken storylines. I'm unsure if it's changed since Cataclysm but at least originally questing felt very jarring for nature-loving Tauren when they reached the Barrens and were suddenly willingly performing services for the Forsaken to poison the world. So, while I feel most Horde leaders are pretty decent people, I regard Sylvanas in a similar light to Garrosh. And there's a certain plot point (and cutscene) in Stormheim where I laughed my arse off at what happens to Sylvanas, even though she's supposed to be my Warchief.

On the other hand, I felt they handled her dilemma very well when the Horde retreated from the Broken Shore. It actually seemed like she felt something.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:59 am 
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I came across a video yesterday of someone arguing that "gamers don't care about the story in video games".

I think our raw emotions here, and how deeply we are feeling our relationships to these various characters, is ample proof that there are MANY gamers who are more than a little invested in the story contained within their game.

I tried playing Aion, it's a gorgeous game, and the mechanics were fun, but the story was lacklustre, to the point of being almost nonexistent.

Previously I had played Final Fantasy 11 for many years, which had its faults, but also had a relatively strong story arc.

This is why I love World of Warcraft so much. The story. And I particularly love that the story can be slightly different depending on which race you play as, or even radically different depending on which faction you play. I forgive many of Blizzard's story-telling errors, mostly because I realize how immense the lore of WoW is, and how complicated it is to balance story content with actual gameplay and with class mechanics.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:41 pm 
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The purge of Dalaran during MoP felt really bad as an alliance player. The conflict in Stormheim felt like King Anduin knew it had a high probability of being needed, and sent people who would make that decision for him. Otherwise he would have sent spies instead of the seventh legion.

At the battle of broken shore, the alliance should have heard that the horde was being overrun before the horde sounded the "we're leaving" horn.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:28 am 
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Sukurachi wrote:
I came across a video yesterday of someone arguing that "gamers don't care about the story in video games".

I think our raw emotions here, and how deeply we are feeling our relationships to these various characters, is ample proof that there are MANY gamers who are more than a little invested in the story contained within their game.

Absolutely! And there have been so many good storylines in the Broken Isles. Blizzard have some great quest designers. Though for sheer emotion I think the cutscene at the end of the Shadowmoon Valley story in WoD still tears me up like no other.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:10 am 
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Wain wrote:
Absolutely! And there have been so many good storylines in the Broken Isles. Blizzard have some great quest designers. Though for sheer emotion I think the cutscene at the end of the Shadowmoon Valley story in WoD still tears me up like no other.


I'll have to go back to Draenor with my two alliance toons. I haven't really played them, I mostly "cheated" them from level 45 to 100 by taking advantage of the massive amounts of exp. from the legion Invasion events.

Now its time to go back and revisit Draenor.

From my understanding, Pandaria wouldn't really be worth it, I seem to have read that the stories are more or less identical for Horde and Alliance.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:57 am 
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Wain wrote:
There's a certain plot point (and cutscene) in Stormheim where I laughed my arse off at what happens to Sylvanas, even though she's supposed to be my Warchief.

On the other hand, I felt they handled her dilemma very well when the Horde retreated from the Broken Shore. It actually seemed like she felt something.


This is one of the things that bothers me greatly in Legion. It's like during Broken Shore pre-launch event Blizzard wanted to portrait Sylvanas as dark anti-hero sort of character, but with actual depth (however much an MMO will allow), but once the events of actual expansion start we're back to point zero with Sylvanas being 2 dimensional villain with emotional constipation.
Every time I see the Stormheim cinematic and / or do Warden Tower ("Obe-e-e-ey.... The Val'kyr are mi-i-ine!"), I inwardly cringe and wonder when our Warchief has turned into Disney villain.

It's like a step forward and two steps back, dammit :(


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:21 am 
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Shelassa wrote:
Every time I see the Stormheim cinematic and / or do Warden Tower ("Obe-e-e-ey.... The Val'kyr are mi-i-ine!"), I inwardly cringe and wonder when our Warchief has turned into Disney villain.

Well, she's in good company in Stormheim, with Ursula Helya ;)

Actually, there's a characterization that really shits me. She fought on the side of good, and was betrayed and abused by Odyn so of course she's pissed. But the storylines in Stormheim seem to paint Odyn as a reasonable guy and Helya is over-reacting for, well, being violated and twisted into one of his minions. It's like an Old Boys Club story.

Also, is it more than coincidence that Tirion died at the start of this expansion and now we get Odyn? Can there be only one pompous windbag at a time?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:00 am 
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Legit, I can't work out what side of the coin Odyn is meant to be. Good, bad, demented, neutral, delusional, all knowing, know nothing, warmonger, peacekeeper... He bugs the hell out of me, are they 50 different people writing for him?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:52 am 
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Wain wrote:
Actually, there's a characterization that really shits me. She fought on the side of good, and was betrayed and abused by Odyn so of course she's pissed. But the storylines in Stormheim seem to paint Odyn as a reasonable guy and Helya is over-reacting for, well, being violated and twisted into one of his minions. It's like an Old Boys Club story.


I don't even want to think about Odyn, tbh. Every time he opens his mouth and booms "HOW DARES SHE DEFY ME, THAT SEA WITCH" or something of the sort, my eyes roll on their own accord (+ he killed my Shadow Priest for asking him about Loken, thanks a ton, Xal'atath).

I hoped there would be continuation to Sylvanas vs. Genn (+ Odyn vs. Helya / Val'kyr) conflict and that it just miiight be not quite so black and white, since Odyn and Helya's story section in Chronicles was so vast and somewhat could've alluded to Sylvanas and Arthas (defied the dudes, got risen and transformed against their will, got free but are forever darkened and changed), but that obviously wasn't the case. Instead we got Halls of Valor v2.0

I wonder if there will even be anything added to Red vs Blue Stormheim conflict or to the conflict altogether, since at least one of the major points of it was the fact that Sylvanas had a bargain of sorts with Helya for the lantern to enslave the Val'kyr. Now that Helya is gone, continuation of that plotline seems unlikely, unless Sylvanas' side of bargain was to ress her in such a case :D


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:41 pm 
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*reads thread*

*sighs*

Blizzard, when are you going to hire women for your writing team? This is ridiculous.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:23 pm 
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Kalliope wrote:
*reads thread*
*sighs*
Blizzard, when are you going to hire women for your writing team? This is ridiculous.

A woman rebels against her manipulative abuser, so we beat her up for him. Not Blizzard's finest moment in storytelling.

From the team that brought you hysterical, emotionally unstable Jaina.

I think there are many great moments of storytelling, especially with the zone questlines. I just think these are not some of them.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:27 am 
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Wain, what was your first example? Were you talking about Helya again or someone else? (Sorry if this is a weird question).


Anyways, it's not really on topic(?) but I hated the Stormheim Alliance/Horde a lot. Both sides made me go errrgh.
And I bloody loath Odyn.

(sniffle, I want justice for Helya.)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:34 am 
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Peridot wrote:
Wain, what was your first example? Were you talking about Helya again or someone else? (Sorry if this is a weird question).

Yeah, Helya :)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:06 am 
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It's no wonder he's been estranged from the Ulduar Watchers.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:32 am 
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In the latest I-hate-Odyn news:

The dude's such a troll.

"I will reward you for your worth!" -> beats his and his goons' asses in the raid -> gets 4 gold. Well played, well played.

Returning to Red and Blue:

Except Lady Liadrin kicking ass in the latest questlines for the Nightfallen, are there any Horde leaders at all on the Broken Isles? On both my Hordie Hunter and Ally Shaman before going to Broken Isles I even had a running in with Magni, then got a chance to hang out with Night Elven racial leaders (Tyrande & Malfurion in Val'sharah), had a party in Exodar with Velen.

We are, sort of, at war after Broken Shore, no? Where are my people to quest with / under the command of? You can recolor my Blood elf blue and not a thing would change. So far the most Horde thing was getting rewarded for a Prestige level.

The PvP story feels as awkward to me as Xe'ra altogether.

P.S. And Vereesa had a flip - from being a hero worthy of Thas'dorah I went to "I don't trust you or any of your kin! Ever! :c" during elven Suramar campaign.


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