Garrosh vs Varian

[Ryno]

I voted Varian too.

He's just all stupid. Garrosh just needs a nap in my opinion.

"Hey Varian, they want to make pea-" "KILL ORKZ. NAOW. NOOBZ." "..."

[Bulletdance]

I really like Varian, but its probably because I liked the comic book. I hate Garrosh though he doesn't even look like an orc and since Thrall is so awesome it makes me angry he'll be replaced by him.

[Karathyriel]

Yes, Varian is willing to go to war - because this is the only language you "green-skinned aberrations" understand .

Now about that.

I give the alliance credit for one thing: The orcs actually invaded a world they didn't belong to and fought for pure lust for bloodspilling action. But back then, they were under influence of the demons bllod and not in their right mind. I'm not justifying the attacks, though.
Wenn all this was over, Thrall took over the horde. Thrall, who has been kept like an animal and sent into fights for men to watch. This tells us a) only humans can have the idea of treating a clearly intelligent, humanlike being this way. b) they don't have the guts to fight themselves.
When Thrall took over, a treaty was met. Durotar was made orcland and look what a crappy piece of land they took. But they decided on building a new home as Draenor was destroyed by that time. Who broke the treaty? Admiral Proudmore, Jainas father. No, he's not a gnome! *hint, hint*
Look at the forsaken, who were able to break their bindings to the scourge and get a free will again. Had they ever had a chance for a peaceful life? Did the humans even think about letting them live (die? undie? unlive?) in peace for only one second? Nope, they didn't. As soon as they emerged from the nightmare of the scourge, they entered the nightmare of being fair game. Not even their leader, Sylvanas Windrunner, could get their former friends to listen.
The blood elves... Most discussed race of the horde. Yes, they were Highborne once. Yes, they belonged to the alliance once. Yes, they murdered and slaughtered trolls wherever they found them.

The blood elves defended their homeland, and, eventually, having reestablished a degree of safety to their land and prevented their society from degenerating, Kael'thas left his homeland. He took a group of the strongest blood elf warriors and spell casters and joined the Alliance against the Scourge. They were eager to avenge themselves on the undead forces; however, bigotry prevented the human forces from seeing the aid the blood elves could bring to their fight. Due to those human prejudices, Kael'thas was forced to accept the assistance of the naga queen's servant, Lady Vashj, and the reptilian naga. When the humans discovered that the blood elves were working with the naga, they were imprisoned and sentenced to death by the racist human Grand Marshall Garithos (who had commanded the New Alliance)

After that, they turned to the horde and Thrall took them. Even the trolls could actually live with them, but then there were mostly Amani trolls who suffered from them. But again, it was the humans arrogance that made them weaker and drove a whole nation away from the alliance.

Look at the dwarves... They want to know were they came from. I can understand that. And look what they found! Titans and old realms and dark, old gods... Just about everything you need to destroy the world. Does it stop them from digging? Looking at all the holes in the earth, I'd say we're looking at some idiots right now...

I'll stop here or it'll take me some time to get it all out. But this should prove that the horde is not the "evil side" after all. The "green skinned aberrations" are just one-fifth of the horde (OK, come expansion, they'll be one-third as the goblins are green too).

In the end, I guess, you just got the idiot for a king you humans deserve...

So, I say it again...

For the Horde!

(Not to be taken seriously, I'm just a horde fan and simply love these discussions!)

[Saturo]

About the elves, the trolls can also justify themselves by defending their lands. As Vol'Jin says in the Zul'Aman trailer, "Dis wus Troll land! Our land!". The elves actually landed in Tirisfal Glades first, but since an old god under the ground there was driving some of 'em mad, they relocated to Eversong, which was actually Troll territory. Since the elves joined the Alliance, the trolls joined the Horde to get help with their elf problem. When their ancient enemies the elves joined the Horde, the trolls were incredibly angry with their old allies, and that justifies their attacks against the elves. They are fighting for something they lost long ago, and in my opinion, it's a justified fight.

Fan of the elven factions.

For Silvermoon!

[Karathyriel]

I don't think so, saturo...

Only the Darkspear trolls joined the horde and onyl because they were close to extinction by other troll tribes, as far as I remember.
In the ZUl'Aman trailer, it's Zul'Jin talking as Vol'Jin is a Darkspear and no Amani and resides in Thralls throne room, not in Zul'Aman.

The trolls had two rather large empires back in time. The Amani and the Gurubashi. As the Gurubashi were located in stranglethorn, the Amani were in Eversong and were the only troll fighting with the elves. The Darkspear trolls (meaning the playable trolls) are jungle trolls and belonged to the Gurubashi empire.

However, ancient texts speak of a small faction of trolls that broke off from the Amani Empire and founded their own colony in the heart of the dark continent.
There, these brave pioneers discovered the cosmic Well of Eternity which transformed them into beings of immense power. Some legends suggest that these adventurous trolls were the first night elves, though this hypothesis has never been proven.

Interesting, isn't it?

[Saturo]

Ok, I completely mixed Vol'Jin up with Zul'Jin, but the forest trolls did join the Horde, in WCII. Of this I am certain.

[Karathyriel]

As tribal rivalries erupted throughout the former Gurubashi Empire, the Darkspear tribe found themselves driven from their homeland in Stranglethorn Vale. Having settled in what are believed today to be the Broken Isles, the tribe soon found themselves entangled in a conflict with a band of murlocs. Their fate seemed sealed until the orcish Warchief Thrall and his band of newly freed orcs took shelter on their island home. Controlled by a Sea Witch, a group of rampaging murlocs captured the Darkspears' leader Sen'jin, along with Thrall and several other orcs and trolls. Thrall managed to free himself and others, but was ultimately unable to save the trolls' leader. Although Sen'jin was sacrificed to the Sea Witch, he was able to reveal a vision he had in which Thrall would lead the Darkspear from the island.

After returning to the island, Thrall and his followers managed to fend off further attacks by the Sea Witch and her murloc minions, and set sail for Kalimdor once again. Under the new leadership of Vol'jin, the Darkspear swore allegiance to Thrall's Horde and followed him to Kalimdor. Now considered enemies by all other trolls except the Revantusk and the Zandalari, the Darkspear are held in contempt to this day. Yet, the Darkspear have not forgotten being driven from their ancestral homes and this animosity is eagerly returned, especially towards the other jungle trolls. Having reached the orc's new homeland, Durotar, the trolls carved out another home for themselves — this time among the Echo Isles on the eastern shores of the new orc kingdom.

However, with the coming of Kul Tiras and its navy, the Darkspear were forced to retreat inland under the onslaught of the misguided commander Daelin Proudmoore. The trolls, fighting alongside their Horde brethren, defeated the enemy and reclaimed their new homeland. Shortly thereafter, a witch doctor by the name of Zalazane began using dark magic to take the minds of his fellow Darkspear. As his army of mindless followers grew, Vol'jin ordered the free trolls to evacuate, and Zalazane took control of the Echo Isles. The Darkspear have since settled on the nearby shore, naming their new village after their old leader, Sen'jin. From Sen'jin Village they, along with their allies, send forces to battle Zalazane and his enslaved army.

See? OK, it was murlocs, not trolls who had them almost wiped out but the rest...

Which forest trolls do you mean? I can't remember WarCraft II to be honest.

[Sonata]

Guys guys! As much as I like knowing the history of Wow, let's try to stay on topic.

This is not the bash The Horde or The Alliance (if you want one make one in the Offtopic forum as a game)...or what happened and when.
This is a discussion about Garrosh and Varian.

On the note, I'd actualy want to see Varian saying he hates Orc's...even his WowWiki profile says he hates the Horde in general. Most of his sufferings were caused by the orcs yes...but that's that.
I can't make out a clear persona from the game image, he doens't seem as arrogant as Garrosh but he is ignoring almost everything around him unless provoked.

Garrosh hates the Alliance with a hatred fiercer than fire. This might be the factor that he is young why he's arrogant, a fierce warriors spirit that is making might make him think that the Horde can topple even the Lich King with out fail.
He is the cannon, doesn't think before he leaps...and that might be his downfall.

Maybe they both need to be dumped down a well and be hammered down, made to stay there untill they can make an agreement.

(I so feel like a bad guy now, someone give me a hug please! )

[Saturo]

(Sorry for posting this, even after you asked not to, but I felt that it needed clearig up. Let's stop or discussion of troll history now, it's clearly not going anywhere...)

I'm not talking about Thrall's horde here, I'm talking about the demoncorrupted war juggernaut it used to be. The forest trolls (Amani) joined the horde, fought with it a bit, then left when the orcs were placed in the concentration camps built by the humans. Later, when Thrall escaped and reformed the horde, he sailed across the sea (WC3) and the timeline plays out as you quoted.

Basically, I'm talking waay back in Warcraft history. My point, regardless, is that the forest trolls are right to attack the elves, they are protecting their ancient lands. As Zul'Jin so elegantly put it in the Zul'Aman trailer. Also, in the TBC history recap in the WOTLK manual, it retells the same story I've even trying to tell, only less confusing.

(I voted Garrosh by the way. Stupid arrogant kid, that thinks he can rule...)

[Sonata]

(Sorry for posting this, even after you asked not to, but I felt that it needed clearig up. Let's stop or discussion of troll history now, it's clearly not going anywhere...)

To be honest actualy I don't mind it that much, I actualy want to know the cleared version of the issue, I never really read into the troll history that deeply so it would be nice to know.

Besides the opener of the thread is the one to manage it not me anyway.

[Zangor]

Garrosh is so the bigger jerk

varian even repents on his actions in icecrown after you kill deathbringer so there you have it straight from the raid dungeon itself!

[Kayb]

i dislike them both. i want them both dead or seriously smacked down. hmmm dead preferably.

as far as which faction is or isn't the biggest jerks on whole, it would easily be the alliance. straight off the bat they have the bulk of the prejudicial races who simply can't and won't see past black and white. Humans, Draeni, Nelfs are massivly keen on holding grudges and making book cover judgements

it's a freakin miracle they're accepting the Worgen, because 99% of the time, as far as alliance general thinking goes, "if it doesn't look kinda like us, then its a monster!"

don't get me wrong, the horde have their share of drawbacks too, but storywise? the alliance are just plain boring.

[Zangor]

the alliance are just plain boring.

LIES ALL LIES!!!

alliance is actually pretty chill.....youd know that if you play them past level 10

[Aleu]

I will admit, I'll give Varian brownie points for allowing Saurfang to get Dranosh's body. I guess he understands since he is also a father.

For Garrosh... I just think Thrall needs to be tougher on him. Varian just needs a hard whack on the head.

Intersting enough that the poll says more people think Garrosh is the bigger jerk, but the comments seem to go Varians way.

[Karathyriel]

As all horde players might remember:
Garrosh did challenge Thrall for the title of warchief! The started fighting in the Orgrimmar arena but were interrupted by a scourge attack.

This duel is still imminent and the outcome is yet to see. I can't imagine that Blizz forgot about that. The orcs sure wouldn't... Either Garrosh takes over the horde in this way or he is finally put in his place by a victorious Thrall.

[Dvorkin]

Wenn all this was over, Thrall took over the horde. Thrall, who has been kept like an animal and sent into fights for men to watch. This tells us a) only humans can have the idea of treating a clearly intelligent, humanlike being this way. b) they don't have the guts to fight themselves.

How conveniently you forget that Varian was forced to fight in arenas as well! And for your "has been kept like an animal", wowiki has different opinion:

"He was trained and taught by many, wet-nursed by a human woman, and grew to befriend her daughter, Taretha Foxton."

When Thrall took over, a treaty was met. Durotar was made orcland and look what a crappy piece of land they took. But they decided on building a new home as Draenor was destroyed by that time. Who broke the treaty? Admiral Proudmore, Jainas father. No, he's not a gnome! *hint, hint*

Well, I never said humans were pure angels . But it's not like orcs are keeping the treaty either - last time I checked, they still fight with elves on their native lands.

Look at the forsaken, who were able to break their bindings to the scourge and get a free will again. Had they ever had a chance for a peaceful life? Did the humans even think about letting them live (die? undie? unlive?) in peace for only one second? Nope, they didn't. As soon as they emerged from the nightmare of the scourge, they entered the nightmare of being fair game. Not even their leader, Sylvanas Windrunner, could get their former friends to listen.

"Forsaken" and "peaceful life"?

Did they ever tried to live in peace? for just one second? I did a lot of quests for them, and it looks like they think only about 2 things - the revenge and that new plague. (And, in any case Scarlet Crusade is not part of Alliance, just for you to know .)

The blood elves...

According to the wowwiki, "The western Horde recognizes the blood elves as dangerous, volatile and ultimately destructive." - and you expect Alliance to trust them? (But this is going to be too big of off-topic, so let us stop here.)

Look at the dwarves... They want to know were they came from. I can understand that. And look what they found! Titans and old realms and dark, old gods... Just about everything you need to destroy the world. Does it stop them from digging? Looking at all the holes in the earth, I'd say we're looking at some idiots right now...

May be you have just one single example when dwarves awaken something terrible, of made things worse? So far, their digging helped to uncover (and then prevent!) some quite serious threats (like Algalon). Or you prefer to prefer to dig your head into sand and hope all those old gods and titans just go away? Guess what - they won't!

(Not to be taken seriously, I'm just a horde fan and simply love these discussions!)

Oh, sure! I'm not even an Alliance fan, was arguing just for fun .

-Dvorkin.

[Kayb]

Garrosh needs his ass handed to him by Thrall, seriously, he doesn't deserve to wake up one morning and decide he should run the Horde after having done nothing all his life but sit around in a emo slump.

Anime hair boy king needs either to have his butt handed to him by a hordey, or to witness the horde rescuing/helping alliance interests in some way, or even be saved himself by one of them, for him to truly understand that the modern horde isn't out to rule the world like the old horde was

[Sonata]

Anime hair boy king needs either to have his butt handed to him by a hordey, or to witness the horde rescuing/helping alliance interests in some way, or even be saved himself by one of them, for him to truly understand that the modern horde isn't out to rule the world like the old horde was

Another enigma to add here is that one of the kings friends is a Blood elf. But Valeera and Broll haven't had any impact on the game so they might be there just for show, a cameo of the comics. Even if they are at your side at the Wrath Gate.

And Varian still remembers what happened to him when he was Lo'Gosh, how Hamuul in a awesome way helped them escape Regnar.
But I read somewhere that it is stated that the comic might be a standalone universe so it might not count to the game or to the story!

[Ryai]

I have a different point of view.
Garrosh Hellscream is an orc. Now that he knows of his heritage, he just tries to live up to his name. The problem is, they allowed him to play with the big boys but he has no experience whatsoever in leading. If you take that into account, he's doing a rather good job in northrend. Maybe he's a hothead but that might be in the blood (Grom Hellscream was no war hero for nothing) or again being inexperienced.

King Varian is a grown man and used to wear the crown. He suffered and now tries to pay back. He doesn't care that it wasn't Thrall or the new horde that had him suffer and he is willing to go to war and sacrifice his own people for his personal thirst for revenge.

Actually, Varian ISN'T the bigger jerk- if you've been anywhere near the Saurfang fight, he evidently orders his men to stand down to allow Saurfang to collect his son/attempt to collect Saurfang the younger. And that actually surprised and shocked me BUT supported what Palla said that while Varian is a bastard and does tend to side with his hatred and racism more than he should, but for obvious reasons, he isn't a total and complete waste of space. He does have morals. He does have honor. He does listen to it.

Garrosh? Garrosh is just a pig headed bastard. If you listened to him for even a second when you did the quests he assigns you in Warsong hold or even the discussions he causes to happen between him and Saurfang, you'll see not only does he throw any sage advice OUT of the window given to him but he goes OUT of his way to be an utter ass. IE the people need reinforcements but supposedly only you and a few others are there and instead of actually trying to offer more help to those that need it, he just sends you.

And Saurfang appears to save you and a forsaken in one quests and orders you and the forsaken to both be silent and NOT tell Garrosh anything. Why? Because Saurfang knows Garrosh is utterly useless and it's more than just a 'small inexperienced boy in a big pond'.

And then there's what Agrim[?]'s hammer or whatever? Mean the first time in Northrend outside of Warsong hold where I actually wanted to reach through the screen and utterly destroy a quest giver for actually dare insulting me, my character and how I am with the horde.

Just because he's Garrosh's little buttfriend. And while I do want to call him worse I am trying to keep myself in check. At anyrate, once again it's Saurfang who's being forced to have loyal and true to the sane horde members who aren't influenced by Garrosh's madness helping you out/sending word. As you have to put up with a mostly pig headed, elitist prick.

You then meet another one in du du du du, Icecrown! What is he doing? A useless fight with the ally ship when the true threat is actually below them crawling around skankily on the ice and rock and unearthing more whelps and more dragons and more undead. He then has you go and kill alliance that are dying. Why? Cause evidently he thinks that's much better than anything. And who appointed him?

Garrosh if I remember right.

Everyone has faults and I know that the most. But Garrosh has used up any sane excuses. And the worst part? The worst part?

Listen to the full discussion between him and Saurfang. Because while I know in war there are casualties of innocents and sometimes children are killed or you have to kill them [because of brainwashing but it's still a horrible act]. Garrosh actually seems to try and defend it and idk, like it.

And it just makes me question who would actually defend killing harmless children. Who. And outside of the 'it was an unfortunate act because of the war' that sane people do.

Garrosh is twisted, he's messed up. He's not right in the head. He shouldn't get anu excuses for his actions [pixels or not].