Pre Cata exotic pet survey

TygerDarkstorm · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:32 pm

Worba wrote:

TygerDarkstorm wrote:

Exotic pets ARE trophies--they're like a reward for sticking to the spec and forming the ultimate bond with pets.

Bearing in mind that most of the really "flashy" exotics require you to be lvl 54+, regardless of whether you have the tame exotics ability per se.

I think for at least some, the idea of lowering the minimum level on the tame exotics spell, brings to mind panicstruck images of lvl 10s running around with a chromaggus or a loque... when in fact the sort of exotics a low BM hunter would have are probably (mostly) the sort that the higher level ones would consider rather... unfashionable plain.

If you've read my earlier posts, I said I was okay with BM hunters having access to exotic pets at level 10. I'm aware the more "flashy" exotics aren't available until later on; I don't want the exotic abilities (that's different than skins

) available at the really low levels because it would create a shitstorm from other players. I'd also like the exotic skins to stay within the BM spec because they're the reward for being BM now.

Worba · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:49 pm

TygerDarkstorm wrote:

If you've read my earlier posts, I said I was okay with BM hunters having access to exotic pets at level 10. I'm aware the more "flashy" exotics aren't available until later on; I don't want the exotic abilities (that's different than skins

) available at the really low levels because it would create a shitstorm from other players. I'd also like the exotic skins to stay within the BM spec because they're the reward for being BM now.

Okay, so when you were talking about exotics as trophies / rewards for dedication, you just meant that their abilities are the part that should be held back for later, but not the pets themselves, correct?

Rhyela · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:14 pm

I'm ready for the inevitable evil glares and threats, but if shiny exotic pets are our "reward" for being BM, then I see that right there as the fundamental flaw with BM. We should haven't to be rewarded with something gimmicky to make up for lower DPS. How about actually fixing the DPS issue with something fun and that works, rather than tossing us a glittery cookie?

I am of the unpopular belief and opinion that all beasts should be normalized across the board so that all pets are created equal. Then, they should let us choose the talent tree for our pets (rather than have them set in stone from the get-go) so that all hunters regardless of spec could personalize each pet how they saw fit. Talk about choice! They could still put plenty of the fun talents in each tree where it "belongs" (utility moves in the Survival tree, crit buffing moves in ferocity, etc.), but let us choose what we want our pets to be. No "exotics" that are pre-determined for us. Let us choose our high-tier "exotic" ability for any pet of our choosing. We could have a spider with a heal if we want, or a boar with a stamina buff, etc.

That's my (highly unpopular) vision and hope for what pets could be someday. Probably not going to happen, I'm aware of that, since BM is now seen as the "shiny pet" spec and it seems it would be incredibly difficult to deviate from that at this point.

But if shiny pets are my "reward" for not doing as much DPS as I should, then they can keep their reward. Give me something useful, not a gimmick.

Personal opinion here people, let's try to remember that. It's just that I've been BM from day one and always will be, but I'm not fond of the whole "exotic" idea. /shrug.

TygerDarkstorm · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:15 pm

Worba wrote:

TygerDarkstorm wrote:

If you've read my earlier posts, I said I was okay with BM hunters having access to exotic pets at level 10. I'm aware the more "flashy" exotics aren't available until later on; I don't want the exotic abilities (that's different than skins

) available at the really low levels because it would create a shitstorm from other players. I'd also like the exotic skins to stay within the BM spec because they're the reward for being BM now.

Okay, so when you were talking about exotics as trophies / rewards for dedication, you just meant that their abilities are the part that should be held back for later, but not the pets themselves, correct?

Correct. BW and Intimidation are pretty lackluster anymore with all the nerfs they've faced so I think it's fair for BMs to get exotics as their level 10 choice for picking BM and just having Blizzard hold back the abilities until they're higher in level.

TygerDarkstorm · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:20 pm

Rhyela wrote:

I'm ready for the inevitable evil glares and threats, but if shiny exotic pets are our "reward" for being BM, then I see that right there as the fundamental flaw with BM. We should haven't to be rewarded with something gimmicky to make up for lower DPS. How about actually fixing the DPS issue with something fun and that works, rather than tossing us a glittery cookie?

I am of the unpopular belief and opinion that all beasts should be normalized across the board so that all pets are created equal. Then, they should let us choose the talent tree for our pets (rather than have them set in stone from the get-go) so that all hunters regardless of spec could personalize each pet how they saw fit. Talk about choice! They could still put plenty of the fun talents in each tree where it "belongs" (utility moves in the Survival tree, crit buffing moves in ferocity, etc.), but let us choose what we want our pets to be. No "exotics" that are pre-determined for us. Let us choose our high-tier "exotic" ability for any pet of our choosing. We could have a spider with a heal if we want, or a boar with a stamina buff, etc.

That's my (highly unpopular) vision and hope for what pets could be someday. Probably not going to happen, I'm aware of that, since BM is now seen as the "shiny pet" spec and it seems it would be incredibly difficult to deviate from that at this point.

But if shiny pets are my "reward" for not doing as much DPS as I should, then they can keep their reward. Give me something useful, not a gimmick.

Personal opinion here people, let's try to remember that. It's just that I've been BM from day one and always will be, but I'm not fond of the whole "exotic" idea. /shrug.

As much fun as picking our pet's talent trees would be (believe me, I would love to do that), it doesn't change that the only real defining thing BMs have atm is our shiny exotic pets. If Blizzard could fix that and either rebuff BW (highly unlikely) or finally give us the signature shot they've been promising, then perhaps I'll consider all skins for all specs even though it doesn't really make sense lore/RP wise for a SV or MM hunter to run around with a giant exotic pet.

My other concern with picking the talent trees is if the pets keep all the same specials they have now...that still leaves very few pets that would make awesome tanks (bears, turtles, and worms are the only ones that come to mind atm). If we could choose ability/utility or something through talents, that would be kind of cool (and possibly imba).

Worba · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:25 pm

TygerDarkstorm wrote:

Worba wrote:

TygerDarkstorm wrote:

If you've read my earlier posts, I said I was okay with BM hunters having access to exotic pets at level 10. I'm aware the more "flashy" exotics aren't available until later on; I don't want the exotic abilities (that's different than skins

) available at the really low levels because it would create a shitstorm from other players. I'd also like the exotic skins to stay within the BM spec because they're the reward for being BM now.

Okay, so when you were talking about exotics as trophies / rewards for dedication, you just meant that their abilities are the part that should be held back for later, but not the pets themselves, correct?

Correct. BW and Intimidation are pretty lackluster anymore with all the nerfs they've faced so I think it's fair for BMs to get exotics as their level 10 choice for picking BM and just having Blizzard hold back the abilities until they're higher in level.

I'd take that over the current system. Like I said earlier, lvl 69 rewards should be primarily focused on substance, not form, and as Blizzard has already confirmed, the difference between exotics and regulars is primarily a matter of aesthetics.

Kasky · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:38 pm

Since this topic keeps coming up...suppose I'll throw my two cents in First, I'd like to say that I'm totally with Rhyela on letting us choose Cunning/Ferocity/Tenacity for our pets...and agree that "shiny" pet skins is a pretty lame end talent/primary defining point. So, here's what I'd sort of like to see, borrowing some things that have been mentioned in previous threads; one for still keeping exotic skins as BM only, but not as "important" as it is now, and one for doing away with exotic skins altogether.

1) If exotic skins remain BM exclusive:
Tame exotics gets moved to level 10 (passive), we get a new talent midway/late in the tree that unlocks a exotic ABILITY/SPELL for all our pets and gives them 4 new talent points (from the current end talent), and BW gets buffed a bit and put back as the last talent.

Pretty much shift what we have to "proper" places in the tree and adding something that would really improve the current system. Exotic skins should be available sooner, all BM pets should be "stronger" than MM/SV pets so it just feels right that even the non-exotic skins get a second ability, and we need to put something at the end to replace the BM talent...BW worked well before, right?

2) If exotic skins become accessible to all specs:
BW gets moved to the level ten ability (with or without intimidation?)...scaled so it's not overpowered, we get a new talent midway/late in the tree that unlocks an exotic ABILITY/SPELL for all our pets and gives them 4 extra talent points, and we get a new end talent ability (several have been suggested in previous threads...I forgot most except for dual pets ^-^; ).

Pretty much rework and add to the BM tree so we don't really have/rely on special pet skins to set our spec apart from the other two. BW moved/added to the level 10 ability because to be honest, Intimidation just doesn't seem to fit as a defining point of BM and BW seems like it'd be easier to scale down/be less overpowered/get less complaints than giving BM pets their second ability at low levels. >.> Then we'd need something to replace BW (the mentioned second ability for all pets) and a new end talent. Not sure if intimidation+BW would be too powerful for level 10, and not sure what to to with intimidation if it is...maybe make it learned from the trainer at a certain level?

Overall, I think BM needs some work...whether or not that includes exotic skins being open to all specs is up to Blizz. I can't say I'd mind losing exotic skins as long as we got other things to replace it...but I don't agree that it necessarily needs to be removed entirely from the spec if Blizz wants to keep it.
That said.../slinks back to lurking in the shadows

PorrasouxRex · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:47 pm

Exotics should NEVER be tameable to the other specs. I do not consider them as a "reward for picking the weaker spec" because quite frankly BM should be more in line with the specs. But for some reason almost every MM or SV hunter just hates BM and pets. 4.0.1 was the best change to BM for a long time. I just think BM needs a bit more spells to make it more unique and not just powered up and re-used spells or BW. Another issue is that if BM only gets a little higher than Survival in DPS, than most Survival hunters would be considered "weaker" and then we'd hear the whining. For some odd reason 50% of outside hunters from this website just hate the idea of BM being even slightly higher than anything because of TBC. Even with the epic changes from Wotlk and now Cata.

That being said, if Exotics were made tameable by the other specs you wouldn't be paying much attention to them anyway. MM and SV hunters are just "Animal-abusers" :lol:

Mainly for the fact for a long while if the pet died they wouldn't have alot of drawback. For a long time it's been BM: Crap I need to keep my epic Chromaggus alive! God he looks so epic fighting Deathwing...." as for MM/SV: Oh, stupid Chromaggus died. I really didn't pay attention to him anyway, all I needed was his Bloodlust." see what I mean? atleast BM you can also view the epicness models and skins of Exotics while you raid/PvP with them. The other specs don't give a damn when fighting.

TygerDarkstorm · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:52 pm

ShadowAkz wrote:

1) If exotic skins remain BM exclusive:
Tame exotics gets moved to level 10 (passive), we get a new talent midway/late in the tree that unlocks a exotic ABILITY/SPELL for all our pets and gives them 4 new talent points (from the current end talent), and BW gets buffed a bit and put back as the last talent.

Pretty much shift what we have to "proper" places in the tree and adding something that would really improve the current system. Exotic skins should be available sooner, all BM pets should be "stronger" than MM/SV pets so it just feels right that even the non-exotic skins get a second ability, and we need to put something at the end to replace the BM talent...BW worked well before, right?

I suppose if Blizzard implemented something like this I could live with it.

Turgus · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:15 pm

(I typed up a much better post, but I lost it... damn computer...)

Personally I find the idea of Marksman Hunters or Survival Hunters having exotic pets quite at odds with the "idea" of their spec.
Marksman and Survival hunters are focused on something completely different than a Beast Master hunter. And the abilities that they have "in-game" are there to just there to flush out what they are "supposed" to be like.

Sure "in-game" exotic pets are just a bunch of pixels that are just about the same as non-exotic pets. Especially since 4.01.
But, the "idea" behind exotic pets is vastly different.

Exotic pets, like the Devilsaur, are so big, so powerful, and so intelligent that only a hunter that has spent incredible amounts of time traveling the world learning about these beasts would ever have a chance at taming one.

So with all things being equal, would a hunter who has focused all of his free time mastering his bow or gun really be able to know and understand a Devilsaur the same as a hunter who focused his free time mastering his relationship with the animals?

I don't think so.

But then again, some people imagine that "their" hunter would be able to tame a Devilsaur, shoot the wings off of a fly at 1000 meters, and live for years in the desert without any water. All at the same time.

TygerDarkstorm · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:50 pm

Turgus wrote:

(I typed up a much better post, but I lost it... damn computer...)

Personally I find the idea of Marksman Hunters or Survival Hunters having exotic pets quite at odds with the "idea" of their spec.
Marksman and Survival hunters are focused on something completely different than a Beast Master hunter. And the abilities that they have "in-game" are there to just there to flush out what they are "supposed" to be like.

Sure "in-game" exotic pets are just a bunch of pixels that are just about the same as non-exotic pets. Especially since 4.01.
But, the "idea" behind exotic pets is vastly different.

Exotic pets, like the Devilsaur, are so big, so powerful, and so intelligent that only a hunter that has spent incredible amounts of time traveling the world learning about these beasts would ever have a chance at taming one.

So with all things being equal, would a hunter who has focused all of his free time mastering his bow or gun really be able to know and understand a Devilsaur the same as a hunter who focused his free time mastering his relationship with the animals?

I don't think so.

But then again, some people imagine that "their" hunter would be able to tame a Devilsaur, shoot the wings off of a fly at 1000 meters, and live for years in the desert without any water. All at the same time.

I agree.

Novikova · **Posted:** Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:57 pm

I don't know. I've met some MM and surv hunters who would be happier without their pet.

Mindsprocket · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:19 am

I picked the last option, that BM needs a completely different 31 talent. I've already given my view of Exotics in another thread and I'll just repost it here because I'm too lazy to write it again. It's a little out of date since I wrote it in August but in essence it still represents my viewpoint.

Me in August wrote:

I've enjoyed both BM and MM since vanilla and personally, I don't like the whole exotics thing as a BM hunter. Why?

Well, when I first heard about exotics, yes, I thought "Sounds neat! And it makes sense that Beast Masters can tame more difficult beasts". My second thought, though, was "But hang on, how's that supposed to work? If exotics are stronger than other pets, BM hunters would have to use them, effectively limiting out pet options rather than expanding them. But if exotics aren't stronger, then they're purely cosmetic. Who on earth puts cosmetics into a talent tree?"

And the way I see it, we got the worst of both possibilities. With the exception of the devilsaur, exotics aren't actually a better option than other pets, making them purely about shinies. And yet, BM is generally considered to be all about exotics, meaning I get strange looks for using anything else, such as my lion (the Rake) that I've loved since vanilla.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't have anything against exotic pets per se. I have a devilsaur and a silithid that I love dearly. But there's something about people expecting me to use them all the time just because "that's what BM is about" that bugs me. Far more than people asking me to use a pet that actually affects my performance (i.e. higher dps or some utility skill). I know that some of this may have to do with the fact the BM just isn't Teh Best spec at the moment, so a lot of people think there's nothing more to it than exotics (which I disagree with, but that's a different story). But I have a feeling that this attitude still wouldn't change much if BM finally got it's long needed workover. It seems to me that by now it's pretty much established that BM = exotics and that's that. And as someone who has enjoyed the playstile of BM long before there were exotics and still wants to use her non-exotic pets, I just can't see that as a possitive development.

All in all I don't think that the exotics idea has done much good for the BM tree and that's why I want the exotics tag to disappear. Not so I can use my Silithid when I'm MM, but so that I don't have to use it when I'm BM. And so that we can finally return to the time when BM was about strong pets, not pretty pets.

Anyway, that's just my personal rant on the subject. I doubt this whole exotics thing will go away anytime soon, but I can dream, and I certainly do.

As for what should replace the BM talent, I'd certainly like to see BW back to its old glory. But I'm not a game designer and I'm really not good at coming up with balanced abilities. I just know that BM used to do fine without exotics, so the "that's the way it's now, therefore it should stay that way forever" argument doesn't work for me. If we keep telling Blizzard that we're happy with BM being all about exotics (i.e. shinies rather than strong pets) they're not gonna do anything about it. They won't try to develop something new, something useful, for BM if they think that looks is all BM hunters care about.

Lysah · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:27 am

Voting for the "replace intimidation with beast mastery" option. Intimidation really feels like a joke of an ability to get when you hit level ten, compared to aimed or explosive shot. And after choosing the masochistic option in going BM at level ten you have to wait sixty agonizing levels before you get what really is the spec's signature ability, being exotic pets.

I see people saying over and over that exotic pets are BM's signature thing. Why, then, does it not make sense to let BM hunters tame them at low levels? I haven't seen anyone talking about how signature intimidation is, and how glad we all are to have it at level ten.

Junrei · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:38 am

Lysah wrote:

Voting for the "replace intimidation with beast mastery" option. Intimidation really feels like a joke of an ability to get when you hit level ten, compared to aimed or explosive shot. And after choosing the masochistic option in going BM at level ten you have to wait sixty agonizing levels before you get what really is the spec's signature ability, being exotic pets.

I see people saying over and over that exotic pets are BM's signature thing. Why, then, does it not make sense to let BM hunters tame them at low levels? I haven't seen anyone talking about how signature intimidation is, and how glad we all are to have it at level ten.

Technically, the only real exotic at lvl 10 is The Kurken, just sayin. Blizzard would have to revamp pets, I think.

Kalliope · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:40 am

Taluwen wrote:

Technically, the only real exotic at lvl 10 is The Kurken, just sayin. Blizzard would have to revamp pets, I think.

Level 12 chimeras in Azshara
Level 13 worms in RFC

That's bloodlust and both AoE pets.

Junrei · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:42 am

Kalliope wrote:

Taluwen wrote:

Technically, the only real exotic at lvl 10 is The Kurken, just sayin. Blizzard would have to revamp pets, I think.

Level 12 chimeras in Azshara
Level 13 worms in RFC

That's bloodlust and both AoE pets.

Huge problems should they allow them at low levels.

Worba · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:23 am

Taluwen wrote:

Kalliope wrote:

Taluwen wrote:

Technically, the only real exotic at lvl 10 is The Kurken, just sayin. Blizzard would have to revamp pets, I think.

Level 12 chimeras in Azshara
Level 13 worms in RFC

That's bloodlust and both AoE pets.

Huge problems should they allow them at low levels.

All avoided by the simple expedient of using scaling, as they do with everything else in the game.

Worba · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:27 am

Lysah wrote:

Voting for the "replace intimidation with beast mastery" option. Intimidation really feels like a joke of an ability to get when you hit level ten, compared to aimed or explosive shot. And after choosing the masochistic option in going BM at level ten you have to wait sixty agonizing levels before you get what really is the spec's signature ability, being exotic pets.

But it doesn't need to be an either/or thing! Tame exotics just needs to be made a core passive, and it would exist alongside intimidation, both from lvl 10.

Lysah wrote:

I see people saying over and over that exotic pets are BM's signature thing. Why, then, does it not make sense to let BM hunters tame them at low levels? I haven't seen anyone talking about how signature intimidation is, and how glad we all are to have it at level ten.

That's because they know that intimidation, by itself, is a very poor excuse for a BM signature, and so they avoid the subject.

Worba · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:35 am

Mindsprocket wrote:

As for what should replace the BM talent, I'd certainly like to see BW back to its old glory. But I'm not a game designer and I'm really not good at coming up with balanced abilities. I just know that BM used to do fine without exotics, so the "that's the way it's now, therefore it should stay that way forever" argument doesn't work for me. If we keep telling Blizzard that we're happy with BM being all about exotics (i.e. shinies rather than strong pets) they're not gonna do anything about it. They won't try to develop something new, something useful, for BM if they think that looks is all BM hunters care about.

The problem with BM in 3.3 was that it was too heavily designed to "run in autopilot" - too many passive abilities, not enough actives.

That's why they revamped KC to become a 6 sec CD ability, along with the various other changes: more clicky = more fun.

Which is why I think it would be more in keeping with the new BM "feel" if they added a new spell at lvl 31: "Kill Them All", shares cd with kill command, 50% dmg to all in melee range; give BM hunters a reason to change tactics from fight to fight, you know (and also a way of propping up their AOE while BW is on CD... and without being forced to use a worm or chimera!)

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