Idea for BM hunters in Cataclysm

[Hawkshadow]

Allow BM hunters to have 2 pets out at once. All abilities such as mend pet and BW /Intimidation would effect both pets at the same time. I think this would greatly help close the gap in the dps difference between BM, Marks and Surv.

Just an idea though, what do you guys think?

[Vephriel]

I've always secretly wished for some BM ability that allowed you to have multiple pets out at once, even if for only a short time.

I know one of the main arguments against this is that micro-managing more than one pet would be pretty stressful in a raiding situation, however if they're both/all synched up to be identical to each other (aka, you can't have one pet do one thing, and another do something else), I don't see an issue. It would basically just be doubling your pet damage or whatnot.

I'd have to wonder, though, which of all your pets would be selected for this ability...and what happens if someone only has 1 pet?

Technicalities aside, I certainly don't mind the idea. :3

[Saturo]

Let's call survival 125% and BM 100%. 50% of a BM hunters DPS comes from their pet. That means that with two pets, they would be doing 150% damage. A bit overpowered. The only way I can see for this to make it into the game is trough a great buff for SV and MM, and an overall nerf for pets.

However, if the two pets did 25% less damage each, it would be fairly equal.

(If my math is wrong, correct me.)

I do however believe that Blizz will do some pretty great changes to all talent trees, and I think it's highly likely for BM to be made viable again. Besides, having two pets out at once would probably require some pretty heavy reprogamming, but it would be neat!

[Hawkshadow]

Im sure that all 3 specs will get something that will improve /change how their tree works. So if marks / Surv get a new shot or more ranged dmg or something it would be nice for BM to get more dmg out of pets, or have 2 pets doing dmg. So long as they pets are in a way grouped together to do the same things (go after same target, cast BW, heal ect) i dont think it would be a problem in raids. Each pet could still have their own unique abilities, but those would not be a problem i dont think.

PVP wise i think it would be fair because the pets would act together so you would not have 2 seprate stuns or 2 separate BW, just 2 pets trying to rip something apart lol.

[Vephriel]

Mm hmm, the second pet could definitely not be at full power...it would only add a portion of its usual damage, for obvious reasons.

[Hawkshadow]

Yeah having both at full power all the time might make BM a little bit OP. Maybe your idea of just having 2 pets for a limited amount of time would be good, in that case they could be at full power but you would only have the 2 of them for like 30 seconds (same as a moonkin's trents?). IDK i do kinda like the thought of having both out all the time, but yeah that would be OP, maybe a slight pet dmg reduction or something.

[Dulanie]

this brought 3 thoughts to mind....#1 the 2nd pet does 50% dmg....#2 a 2nd pet is spawned similarly to a blood DK's dancing rune weapon.....#3 a short term ability that summoned all a BM hunter's pets like a DK's army of the dead.

I think that something along those lines would make BM a viable raid dps tree as well as pvp since I'm sure Blizz would have it share the cooldown limitations that similar abilities other classes have in the arena.

[Saturo]

But what if you haven't purchased all your stable slots? That spell would suck without a maxed stable.

[Hawkshadow]

Oooo that would be cool, i like the rune dancing weapon and army of the...pets? haha! that would be nice. That does sound reasonable too, not to overpowered.

[Ryno]

I suggested this in the guild or something the other day, I remember saying something about having two pets.

And yeah, they could make it work so that it's like a shaman's ghost wolves.

[Danielfboone]

Two pets is not a good idea. Ideally speaking, we need a buff that is not dependent on increased pet damage. The gap between the specs is nowhere near what the min/max crowd would have you believe anyway. In theorycrafting the difference for a highly geared Hunter is only about 10% but in some raid encounters, BM can actually outperform MM and SV because a BM hunter can keep up steadier damage in fights where a lot of movement is required. A BM hunter can also break or be immune to disabling effects such as fear and roots.

I do agree that a buff is needed though and buffing the BM spec would be a very easy thing to do. I know of 3 ways that would be simple for Blizzard to implement.

1. Scale ArP to the pet - even some of it would give a nice boost to BM dps but I think this is unlikely to happen since ArP is going away as a stat and also because it would buff the other 2 specs as well

2. Give BM a special shot unique to the spec like the other 2 specs have. BM's only shot buff is to Arcane.

3. Buff Steady Shot only for BM - This is my favorite of the 3 and would be very easily implemented by adding the buff to an existing talent deep in the BM tree the same way they did with the arcane buff. A 5% damage increase to Steady shot would go a long ways in increasing BM dps.

[Ryno]

Two pets is not a good idea.

Eh, maybe from a raiding perspective.

But from a fun perspective? Two pets would be really cool.

[Danielfboone]

Let's call survival 125% and BM 100%. 50% of a BM hunters DPS comes from their pet. That means that with two pets, they would be doing 150% damage. A bit overpowered. The only way I can see for this to make it into the game is trough a great buff for SV and MM, and an overall nerf for pets.

However, if the two pets did 25% less damage each, it would be fairly equal.

(If my math is wrong, correct me.)

I do however believe that Blizz will do some pretty great changes to all talent trees, and I think it's highly likely for BM to be made viable again. Besides, having two pets out at once would probably require some pretty heavy reprogamming, but it would be neat!

Your math is wrong from the beginning since the difference between BM and SV is only about 8%. It's 10-11% for MM. 25% is a huge overstatement. Also, the percentage of damage from the pet for BM is 40% at the most. In most cases, it's less than that. As I have stated a couple of times now, BM is viable in a great many encounters. You don't see big numbers from it in online parses because none of the Hunters in the top guilds have even tried it to see what it can do. They all blindly follow the min/max crowd who base everything on theorycrafting instead of real in game numbers. If some of the top Hunters would try doing a raid as BM, they would be surprised at the results.

[SpiritBinder]

I do agree that a buff is needed though and buffing the BM spec would be a very easy thing to do. I know of 3 ways that would be simple for Blizzard to implement.

1. Scale ArP to the pet - even some of it would give a nice boost to BM dps but I think this is unlikely to happen since ArP is going away as a stat and also because it would buff the other 2 specs as well

Blizzard has already stated on multiple occasions that they will be adding the master’s stats to the pet. e.g. Crit, ap, armor, etc.

They have also stated that ArmP will not be making the cut as it is too hard to implement and there will be no such "stat" per say come Cata.

2. Give BM a special shot unique to the spec like the other 2 specs have. BM's only shot buff is to Arcane.

They have also started that they don’t want every tree to be a one "shot" pony, hence we have not got one. That’s not to say that we wont get one in the future, but it will most likely revolve around our pet somehow. (e.g. Bleeding shot: causes the target to bleed which inturn triggers your pet go into a vicious frenzy for the next 5 secs increasing its damage by 6%)

3. Buff Steady Shot only for BM - This is my favourite of the 3 and would be very easily implemented by adding the buff to an existing talent deep in the BM tree the same way they did with the arcane buff. A 5% damage increase to Steady shot would go a long ways in increasing BM dps.

I doubt this will happen anytime soon ether, they went to extreme lengths to remove our dependency on SS. They didn't just want us to spam SS over and over and over. This was why BM got so hurt before hand. They could add a talent deep in the BM tree that affect SS similar to MM, but now they have a chance to have a hunter "redo" when cat hits, so it could really be a drastically different approach to using a hunter.

[SpiritBinder]

Your math is wrong from the beginning since the difference between BM and SV is only about 8%. It's 10-11% for MM. 25% is a huge overstatement. Also, the percentage of damage from the pet for BM is 40% at the most. In most cases, it's less than that.

Ok the numbers are a little off, but I think it's more to do with the ideas, rather than the maths.
The idea of have 2 or more of your pets out as a Hunter just makes some people squeal on the inside. I for one would love to see some kind of implementation like that. But if it ever were, yes it would have to be balanced, Yes it would have to have to not be another button as they crowned BW before the nerf. But the idea is fun.

How about adding some of your own suggestions to balance the "math".

E.g.

Sounds good, but how about... This skill would probably be unusable at the same time as BW, or even share the same cool down?
or
Both pets summoned would be only have 65% of their stats but both retain their own individual family skills and/or all damage done to ether the pets or the hunter is evenly dispersed among the 3 of you.
or
Maybe you summon all 5 pets from your stables like army of the dead? they all do 30% of their dps? Maybe it would be a channelled spell like AOTD too? If you don’t have 5 pets in your stable to just get some randomised pets that are added by blizzard for the spell.


There are sooo many factors to consider, but I too would love to be able to call more than one of my pets at a time through some kind of skill.

[Hawkshadow]

yeah i did no math what so ever when i threw out this idea. I just thought it would be fun

Though there is the math to consider, and the pvp aspects, and a ton of other things. But i for one would LOVE to see something like this happen, even if only for a short amount of time.

Also as far as other shots and such goes i disagree that BM needs something to make us less reliable on the pet. I play BM because i love my pets, BM is the pet spec. Marks / Surv is the spec you go shoot stuff with, and if you like that cool thats great, have fun. But please leave BM the pet spec. If BM needs a buff it should be somehow through the pet, maybe a bleed shot like someone said above, but it should have to do with the pet.

[Karathyriel]

As much fun as having more than one pet running alongside you might be, there still are some things to consider.

First of all, the whole hunter class will completely be redesigned for Cataclysm, as they take mana away and give us focus. I really start to wonder, how they believe they can do that, without altering the class completely. I really hope that the new style of playing a hunter will suit me and not take the fun away.
Just this change could relocate the speccs in the damage ranking. Why? Well, focus will be something like energy from rogues, right? Ever seen a rogue not complaining about "need more energy"? That could possibly mean that a BM hunter, who has a lot more of his damage come from his pet, can do more damage than the other speccs, just because he doesn't rely on his own abilities so much and makes more use of the pets focus points. While a MM or SV is out of energy, the BMs pet will still bite the mob, right?

Second, try to imagine all the hunters who didn't specc BM in the first place! Can't you already hear them whine and cry and shout? "Bad Blizz, we want 2 pets too!" The official forums will go nuts if this happens! I spent 1000 Gold on my warrior for double specc. Why? Because it made sense! "Wanna join for a heroic?" "Sure, what do you need?" "We'll need a melee DD." click, click, click, "OK, ready to go." "Oh, wait, bear just said he wants to go as a cat today." click, click, click, "OK, I'm a tank now. Let's move!" But did I spend it for my hunter? No. Why? "I'm a bad-ass damage dealer" click, click, click, "What are you now?" "A not so bad-ass damage dealer!" Makes no frigging sense! And to spend 1000 Gold just to be able to tame exotics? No, thanks. They are not that cool! So having only one specc to be allowed to have 2 pets out will cause an outrage!

Third, if those pets would act all the same and you couldn't manage them seperately, were is the point? Blizz could just raise the damage done by the single one pet you have and not have the FPS crush down on weaker systems, because all of a sudden another model has to be computed.

Fourth, in my opinion, it would make a lot more sense, if you insist on having more pet models out there, to give you the ability to skill your pet (not the hunter) in a way that gives your pet something like "call to the pack" which will spawn one or two "helpers" of the same pet family (not necessarily the same color) for 10 seconds, boosting your pets damage and with a rather large cooldown. So it would be like your pet is calling some relatives to help out.

Just my 2 cents...

[SpiritBinder]

First of all, the whole hunter class will completely be redesigned for Cataclysm

Totally agreed, so many people are trying to accurately forecast allot of things, but hunters with no mana??? there is no future to forecast

Second, try to imagine all the hunters who didn't specc BM in the first place! Can't you already hear them whine and cry and shout? "Bad Blizz, we want 2 pets too!"

I'd bet my backside that every hunter will have every talent point refunded to them. So if you want the 2 pets, you can always spec BM... or you may want to spec MM because of the new ***"petrifaction shot that turns things to stone!!!"*** omgpwnage!
But seriously, who knows what any of the specs will end up having as flavour...

Third, if those pets would act all the same and you couldn't manage them separately, were is the point?

The point is... two pets out at once!!!

Blizz could just raise the damage done by the single one pet you have and not have the FPS crush down on weaker systems, because all of a sudden another model has to be computed

I don’t see the FPS being to much of a drama. No different to you running into another hunter with their pet out I guess, I don’t lag to much when that happens.

Fourth, in my opinion, it would make a lot more sense, if you insist on having more pet models out there, to give you the ability to skill your pet (not the hunter) in a way that gives your pet something like "call to the pack" which will spawn one or two "helpers" of the same pet family (not necessarily the same colour) for 10 seconds, boosting your pets damage and with a rather large cool down. So it would be like your pet is calling some relatives to help out.

I like this idea too. If its more than one other of your stabled pets, A pack of your current modelled pet would work well imo.

[Danielfboone]

yeah i did no math what so ever when i threw out this idea. I just thought it would be fun

Though there is the math to consider, and the pvp aspects, and a ton of other things. But i for one would LOVE to see something like this happen, even if only for a short amount of time.

Also as far as other shots and such goes i disagree that BM needs something to make us less reliable on the pet. I play BM because i love my pets, BM is the pet spec. Marks / Surv is the spec you go shoot stuff with, and if you like that cool thats great, have fun. But please leave BM the pet spec. If BM needs a buff it should be somehow through the pet, maybe a bleed shot like someone said above, but it should have to do with the pet.

But Ghostcrawler has already said that any buff they do to BM will not be to the pet but to the Hunter. They don't want to make BM pay even more of a penalty if the pet dies or is taken out of action then is currently the case. I agree with that philosophy for the spec. Losing a bigger part of your damage in arenas (I have never done a single arena but can imagine the effect) or in raids would not be the way to make the spec more viable. Bringing out 2 pets and having to scale them to keep from being ridiculously OP would be too hard to balance and just not the way to go. I can guarantee you that it's something that we will never see.

[Danielfboone]

They have also started that they don’t want every tree to be a one "shot" pony, hence we have not got one. That’s not to say that we wont get one in the future, but it will most likely revolve around our pet somehow. (e.g. Bleeding shot: causes the target to bleed which inturn triggers your pet go into a vicious frenzy for the next 5 secs increasing its damage by 6%)

This makes no sense. The very fact that the other specs do have special shots makes them less of a "one shot pony" then BM is. BM is a 2 shot spec, Steady and arcane. With the occasional multi thrown in when there are more than 2 mobs. The other specs use 5 shots on a regular basis. Giving BM another shot will reduce our dependence on particular shots, not increase it. I did suggest in the Blizzard forums a while ago giving BM a shot like the ones the npc's are using on the Jormungar in Thorim's arena. It's a bleed effect shot. It does not need to have an effect on the pet though. In my opinion, pet dps is fine, It's the Hunter himself who needs a buff.

I also used to think that having a dual spec for a hunter made little sense but I have changed my mind with the advent of ICC. I raided strictly as BM before ICC. The gear we are getting now is much better for the MM spec than it is for BM, but, I have also found that there are fights in ICC where I can do more damage in my BM spec than as MM. So for me, dual spec is now very useful. I can consistently do 10 % more damage in the Festergut encounter as BM than as MM even though the hunter Spreadsheet I use predicts exactly the opposite. In contrast, the Lady Deathwhisper fight favors the MM spec. The spreadsheet is modeled on a fight like Patchwerk and also averages out all procs and crits. So of course, you will never see the numbers predicted in the sheet but it is a useful tool in making gear planning decisions.