Proto-Drake question

[Lisaara]

Speaking of proto drakes and slightly off topic, but anyone in beta able to see their jump animation (for the mounts)? If you can use them as ground mounts, I am *dying* to see how goofy their jump animation is!

In beta right now they don't have a jump animation really, they just flap their wings the same as though they were flying...only they don't stay in the air.

*giggles* It'd be adorable if they'd wiggle their arms when they jumped.

[PorrasouxRex]

Okay, so Zaela enslaved Galakras, that much we can see. But what of other examples of them using Proto-drakes? In the new Blackrock spire instance, most of the drakes oddly enough aren't acting like they're being held down by anything. When we attack Zaela herself, the drakes are HELPING her, not teaming up with us to murder their master. As well as the Broodmother proto-drake that's protecting her by blocking the way to her room. I didn't see any chains, or magic being used. She even summons her children to attack us. Could you imagine Onyxia doing all that for some Orc?

The same could be said by the Vrykul. Not once did I ever see one chained up by the Vrykul. They had barns, and nesting areas for the whelps and their mothers. Could you ever see a Dragon of the Aspects going. "I'm going to let you guys watch over me and my innocent little babies, and I won't attack you if you ever try anything."

Also, the Cloud Serpent rep questline. As your baby cloud serpent grew, it behaved somewhat like a baby animal. Making silly gestures and leaving poop everywhere. It never once spoke to you, even when growing up. Heck, Cloud Serpents are used by many Pandaren for combat and not just flying around. And you develop some bond with the cloud serpent as time goes on. Isn't that what tame beast does? As for the Cloud Serpents who can speak, those are considered "deities" of their kind, such as the Heavenly Cloud Serpents. But there are several animals out there that are "deities" of their kind. Xuen, Red Crane, the Boar god from Razorfan instance, and even Loque's mate, Tortos is also another example.

[Azunara]

Yes, but they're beasts. Let's look at this practically. The orcs have been enslaving, beating, torturing, even possibly using the Demon Soul on these protos. With the orcs, there is no choice. If they disobey, bad things happen to them. They don't have the intelligence to go beyond that, sure. I understand that. But on the other hand, deeming them tame-worthy purely because they're bestial seems excessive. I see beasts a lot like this:

You have your tamable average monster. NPC classes and PC classes alike use these as pets.

Then you have "mount" beasts--gryphons, hippogryphs, protos, etc. Creatures that tend to be bigger, used more for transport than fighting and calvary units. Rarely, if ever, used by NPC classes as attack beasts, but frequently as mounts.

Then you have 'sentient beast' creatures--the dragonflights, furbolg, worgen, quilboar, etc, etc.

I do understand where you're coming from with vyrkul. But vyrkul are a whole different race--they've got different strengths and abilities than the average Azerothian. Can you imagine a scrawny human trying to subdue a proto like a vyrkul does?

As for cloud serpents, even if it doesn't talk to you doesn't mean it's not intelligent. There are numerous examples of cloud serpents talking--Nalak and that one boss in Vale raid with Sha of Fear are the two off the top of my head that I can think of. I wouldn't consider Loque a deity, just a lucky cat who gets it on with Har'koa.

At the end of day, I think it boils down to we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I simply can't see hunters taming cloud serpents and proto drakes, and honestly think that'd be excessive borderline ridiculous, and you see the rationale behind why they should be tamable. Neither of us, however, are Blizz. They make the final decision one way or another.

[cowmuflage]

Direhorns are not exotic right? IF they ever make them tameable (and I'd rather them not but this is a IF case) I'd much rather them be non-exotic. Just do it like Direhorns but make it harder to get their book. Thinking about it getting the book from archeology would be really neat and a good way of getting it! Because vyrkul are not going to be showing up anymore. Storywise at least as the only ones you see past Wotlk are the one group that does not use protos because they live on the sea

[Xota]

I don't think people should get too hung up on "they're [not] intelligent/sentient" thing. That's the Watsonian explanation. In the end, Blizzard's decisions are Doylist. Dragons, even 'protodrakes', don't fit the mold of an animal companion to a outdoorsy person. And they're too big, and when big things get shrunk down, they don't look quite the same. Like Devilsaurs, they're the same size as raptor mounts (depending on your race), and the just don't look as cool, especially when your head is above theirs. Protodrakes take up even more real estate, which would make "don't stand in the fire" problematic for melee dps.

I'm not going to say it's not going to happen, but I think there's other more likely possible tames first.

I do have a personal opinion though, exotic pets should be Exotic Pets. They're the defining feature of the Beast Master spec. So if protodrakes, or gryphons/windriders, or any other clearly fantastical beast is made tameable, they should be for BM only. There are lots of other existing and potential awesome mostly ordinary beasts that MM and Survival can enjoy.

[PorrasouxRex]

Yes, but they're beasts. Let's look at this practically. The orcs have been enslaving, beating, torturing, even possibly using the Demon Soul on these protos. With the orcs, there is no choice. If they disobey, bad things happen to them. They don't have the intelligence to go beyond that, sure. I understand that. But on the other hand, deeming them tame-worthy purely because they're bestial seems excessive. I see beasts a lot like this:

You have your tamable average monster. NPC classes and PC classes alike use these as pets.

Then you have "mount" beasts--gryphons, hippogryphs, protos, etc. Creatures that tend to be bigger, used more for transport than fighting and calvary units. Rarely, if ever, used by NPC classes as attack beasts, but frequently as mounts.

Then you have 'sentient beast' creatures--the dragonflights, furbolg, worgen, quilboar, etc, etc.

I do understand where you're coming from with vyrkul. But vyrkul are a whole different race--they've got different strengths and abilities than the average Azerothian. Can you imagine a scrawny human trying to subdue a proto like a vyrkul does?

As for cloud serpents, even if it doesn't talk to you doesn't mean it's not intelligent. There are numerous examples of cloud serpents talking--Nalak and that one boss in Vale raid with Sha of Fear are the two off the top of my head that I can think of. I wouldn't consider Loque a deity, just a lucky cat who gets it on with Har'koa.

At the end of day, I think it boils down to we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I simply can't see hunters taming cloud serpents and proto drakes, and honestly think that'd be excessive borderline ridiculous, and you see the rationale behind why they should be tamable. Neither of us, however, are Blizz. They make the final decision one way or another.

Yes, I can see where our opinions collide. There are several bosses or NPCs who combine the two of mounting, and using the mount in combat. If you attack the flight masters the beasts that they use to fly with also come out to attack you for attacking/killing their master. In Blackrock spire a boss mounts a Rylak and uses it to attack us with flames and bleeds while on the ground.

And to your point about the Vrykuls. Those scrawny humans have the potential to tame Devilsaurs, Core Hounds, even Hydras. We even got a book that taught us how to tame Direhorns from the troll dinomancers. It would be cool to have a similar tome for the Vrykul.

And my point about the talking, and loque's mate Har'koa was that you have several godly creatures with tameable versions of themselves. I don't see why the same couldn't be applied to Cloud Serpents.

[PorrasouxRex]

I don't think people should get too hung up on "they're [not] intelligent/sentient" thing. That's the Watsonianexplanation. In the end, Blizzard's decisions are Doylist. Dragons, even 'protodrakes', don't fit the mold of an animal companion to a outdoorsy person. And they're too big, and when big things get shrunk down, they don't look quite the same. Like Devilsaurs, they're the same size as raptor mounts (depending on your race), and the just don't look as cool, especially when your head is above theirs. Protodrakes take up even more real estate, which would make "don't stand in the fire" problematic for melee dps.

I'm not going to say it's not going to happen, but I think there's other more likely possible tames first.

I agree, many things don't look as cool when they're shrunken down. Sometimes I wish for a glyph that increases our pet's size, much to the dismay of PvE.

But while dragons, as in the aspect dragons may look very strange. Blizzard has been experimenting with draconic pets for awhile now. It started with Chimaeras, then Chromaggus, then Arcane Wryms, Rylaks, and even Chimaeron looks like a draconic abomination. The thing is, that proto-drakes are close in relation to the aspect dragons, and I think that's what puts everyone on edge about it.

[Xota]

The thing is, that proto-drakes are close in relation to the aspect dragons, and I think that's what puts everyone on edge about it.

Then I think you missed my point. I'm not "on edge" because proto-drakes are close in relation to "aspect dragons". I don't care about that one bit. Animal demigods and loa have no bearing on an animals' family being a suitable hunter pet. Heck, there's even a spot where you can magically chat with a gorilla, then 5 minutes later come back and tame that very same gorilla.

And I don't think protodrakes' relation to dragon aspects matters a whole lot in the long run to Blizzard either. I think they just don't want hunters to have dragons as pets. Having flying snakes or a two headed monster that has a backstory of being related to dragons is irrelevant, its not 'experimenting'. Dragons are just a different sort of monster.

Hey, did you hear the one about the (your race/class)? OK, here goes:

A(n) (your race/class) walks into a cave and starts fighting gorillas. The leader of the gorillas says, "Hey, why are you doing that?" So then the (your race/class) says, "A goblin told me to."

The gorilla leader says, "Do you do everything that goblins tell you to do?" And the (your race/class) says, "Yes, because I'm stupid and smelly and I walk on two legs."

Pretty funny, huh? Hmm... maybe it needs some work..."

[Lisaara]

I point you to Alexstrasza's case. She was forced to breed and her babies, from birth, were enslaved and knew only that life. The protodrakes are no different and they are still labeled as enslaved. They are enslaved, beaten, tortured. Sorry, but our hunters should not have to beat and enslave our 'pets' just to get something cool.

Looking like a dragon or has some scales or mutation =/= is a dragon. That argument is very weak, imho.

Not everything has to be a hunter pet. Dragons of any kind should always be off limits.

EDIT: Once more, Azunara says it nicely for me. Rofl. Also if for some weird reason Blizz decides enslaving dragons is cool for everyone to do(I'm highly doubting it), then I agree it should be BM only.

[PorrasouxRex]

I point you to Alexstrasza's case. She was forced to breed and her babies, from birth, were enslaved and knew only that life. The protodrakes are no different and they are still labeled as enslaved. They are enslaved, beaten, tortured. Sorry, but our hunters should not have to beat and enslave our 'pets' just to get something cool.

Looking like a dragon or has some scales or mutation =/= is a dragon. That argument is very weak, imho.

Not everything has to be a hunter pet. Dragons of any kind should always be off limits.

I point you to the Vrykul of Northrend. In no case did it ever appear they were enslaved. No chains, and they were all flying alongside their Vrykul masters. They were all raised in barns with their mothers, and the Vrykul even protected them. The Vrykul king in Storm Peaks had a pet proto-drake that assisted him until the drake was captured by (his name I forgot, think it was Lokie) and mutated his form into the abomination we had to fight in Ulduar.

And, let's just say as another example: You can save a beast from enslavement and poor treatment. Because it seems clear Proto-drakes do not possess the intelligence to break free from enslavement, even when the opportunity is right there: Fighting Warlord Zaela in the new Blackrock Spire instance, the Proto-drakes could not figure out this simple solution: If I help these players kill my master, I'll be free! But instead, they assisted her throughout the fight, not once taking advantage of the situation. Remember Scarlet Halls/Courtyard instances? Remember those Scarlet hounds that were treated like trash? In the end of the fight, the dogs had the intelligence to finish off their master after we weakened him "Houndmaster Braun" yet the Proto-drakes didn't do that whatsoever. We can even tame said enslaved dogs to save them from such poor treatment.

Dragons of any kind should be off limits? Chimaeras, Chromaggus, Arcane Wryms, Chimaeron, and Rylaks would all be considered dragonkin.

[cowmuflage]

Chimaeras are beasts not dragons. Unless I'm missing something I've never seen them referenced as dragons in game before.

[PorrasouxRex]

Chimaeras are beasts not dragons. Unless I'm missing something I've never seen them referenced as dragons in game before.

They don't need to really be marked as :dragonkin: to appear like dragons. Compare Arcane Wryms (who were marked as dragonkin for the longest time) to Chimaeras. Which looks more like a dragon? Be it a beastial, two-headed dragonkin (unless you talk about the ones from Outland, which are even more dragonkin-like)

[cowmuflage]

I would not consider them to be dragonkin.

[Lisaara]

I point you to Alexstrasza's case. She was forced to breed and her babies, from birth, were enslaved and knew only that life. The protodrakes are no different and they are still labeled as enslaved. They are enslaved, beaten, tortured. Sorry, but our hunters should not have to beat and enslave our 'pets' just to get something cool.

Looking like a dragon or has some scales or mutation =/= is a dragon. That argument is very weak, imho.

Not everything has to be a hunter pet. Dragons of any kind should always be off limits.

I point you to the Vrykul of Northrend. In no case did it ever appear they were enslaved. No chains, and they were all flying alongside their Vrykul masters. They were all raised in barns with their mothers, and the Vrykul even protected them. The Vrykul king in Storm Peaks had a pet proto-drake that assisted him until the drake was captured by (his name I forgot, think it was Lokie) and mutated his form into the abomination we had to fight in Ulduar.

And, let's just say as another example: You can save a beast from enslavement and poor treatment. Because it seems clear Proto-drakes do not possess the intelligence to break free from enslavement, even when the opportunity is right there: Fighting Warlord Zaela in the new Blackrock Spire instance, the Proto-drakes could not figure out this simple solution: If I help these players kill my master, I'll be free! But instead, they assisted her throughout the fight, not once taking advantage of the situation. Remember Scarlet Halls/Courtyard instances? Remember those Scarlet hounds that were treated like trash? In the end of the fight, the dogs had the intelligence to finish off their master after we weakened him "Houndmaster Braun" yet the Proto-drakes didn't do that whatsoever. We can even tame said enslaved dogs to save them from such poor treatment.

Dragons of any kind should be off limits? Chimaeras, Chromaggus, Arcane Wryms, Chimaeron, and Rylaks would all be considered dragonkin.

Actually none of what you listed are considered dragonkin(some formerly were but not anymore.). They're beasts. Just because they have dragon-like qualities doesn't mean they are dragons, which I said earlier. That's like calling a half elf draconic sorcerer in D&D a dragon just because one of her ancestors was a dragon. She's not a dragon. She's a half elf. That argument otherwise won't sway me.

Again, you missed the point with the Vyrkul as that was also going along with Alexstrasza. Those protos were raised in captivity. The first ones were probably enslaved by the vyrkul to get that way.

[Xota]

Chimaeras shouldn't be pets. But they are, and Blizzard can't really undo it. Pointing to them isn't a good argument that dragons should be pets. And Rylaks are just chimaera they separated out when the decided they needed an exotic family when hookwasps didn't pan out.

Don't get hung up on the word "dragonkin". Monsters defy taxonomy. Also, "dragonkin" is a silly word made up in like the 80s or 90s. The idea of dragons is millennia older than that. And that idea is that they're unconquerable.

Job 41

1. Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2. Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3. Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4. Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life?
5. Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls?
6. Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7. Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?
8. If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9. Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.

But we get it, you want dragons for pets. Don't hold your breath.

[cowmuflage]

It's WoW taxonomy and should be used for it. It's not RL.

[cowmuflage]

Anyway I'm done with this thread. It's become pointless.

[PorrasouxRex]

I point you to Alexstrasza's case. She was forced to breed and her babies, from birth, were enslaved and knew only that life. The protodrakes are no different and they are still labeled as enslaved. They are enslaved, beaten, tortured. Sorry, but our hunters should not have to beat and enslave our 'pets' just to get something cool.

Looking like a dragon or has some scales or mutation =/= is a dragon. That argument is very weak, imho.

Not everything has to be a hunter pet. Dragons of any kind should always be off limits.

I point you to the Vrykul of Northrend. In no case did it ever appear they were enslaved. No chains, and they were all flying alongside their Vrykul masters. They were all raised in barns with their mothers, and the Vrykul even protected them. The Vrykul king in Storm Peaks had a pet proto-drake that assisted him until the drake was captured by (his name I forgot, think it was Lokie) and mutated his form into the abomination we had to fight in Ulduar.

And, let's just say as another example: You can save a beast from enslavement and poor treatment. Because it seems clear Proto-drakes do not possess the intelligence to break free from enslavement, even when the opportunity is right there: Fighting Warlord Zaela in the new Blackrock Spire instance, the Proto-drakes could not figure out this simple solution: If I help these players kill my master, I'll be free! But instead, they assisted her throughout the fight, not once taking advantage of the situation. Remember Scarlet Halls/Courtyard instances? Remember those Scarlet hounds that were treated like trash? In the end of the fight, the dogs had the intelligence to finish off their master after we weakened him "Houndmaster Braun" yet the Proto-drakes didn't do that whatsoever. We can even tame said enslaved dogs to save them from such poor treatment.

Dragons of any kind should be off limits? Chimaeras, Chromaggus, Arcane Wryms, Chimaeron, and Rylaks would all be considered dragonkin.

Actually none of what you listed are considered dragonkin(some formerly were but not anymore.). They're beasts. Just because they have dragon-like qualities doesn't mean they are dragons, which I said earlier. That's like calling a half elf draconic sorcerer in D&D a dragon just because one of her ancestors was a dragon. She's not a dragon. She's a half elf. That argument otherwise won't sway me.

Again, you missed the point with the Vyrkul as that was also going along with Alexstrasza. Those protos were raised in captivity. The first ones were probably enslaved by the vyrkul to get that way.

Well, what makes a Proto-drake like a dragon? Okay. So they have scales, can fly, and can breathe fire. But they do not possess the power or intelligence as say the Aspect's dragonflights. They also appear to be more feral-like, preferring to use their talons and teeth than to use fire breath, only as a last resort or to assist an ally. Rylaks have done this, and Chimaeras have as well in the past. I mean, is it okay that Chromaggus, or Arcane Wryms were changed into beasts? Because they can't fly or breathe fire? Or do is it because Proto-drakes appear too similar to the Aspect Dragons, considering they were once these primal dragonkin before "evolving" via the Titans? And your point about the draconic half elf? Of course she's not a dragon. Because she posses qualities of a humanoid. What do proto-drakes possess qualities of? Beastial dragonkin. What do Chimaeras and Rylaks possess qualities of? Beastial two-headed dragonkin. They don't think like humanoids or deities, they think like wild animals.

Also, are you saying that every single Proto-drake we met in Northrend were all raised in captivity? Not a single Proto-drake wanted to rebel, or to turn on their masters (Like the Hounds in Scarlet Halls) did? Just because you raise a baby in captivity doesn't mean it's going to comply to all of your commands if you also treat it like trash. They would probably want to turn on their masters more than their parents, their whole lives being hell. Because if we assume these proto-drakes were treated like trash (hardly any food or water, shelter, killed their siblings because they deemed them worthless) then would they not want to strike back? They can't, because unlike Alexstraza they don't possess the intelligence to try and break free from their situation (if, again we assume they were all enslaved or raised in captivity) they only obey their master. So we tame it and not only are they free from enslavement, they get treated fairly (Food, water, and companion that actually takes care of it) similar to the Scarlet Hounds.

[Lisaara]

Chimaeras shouldn't be pets. But they are, and Blizzard can't really undo it. Pointing to them isn't a good argument that dragons should be pets. And Rylaks are just chimaera they separated out when the decided they needed an exotic family when hookwasps didn't pan out.

Don't get hung up on the word "dragonkin". Monsters defy taxonomy. Also, "dragonkin" is a silly word made up in like the 80s or 90s. The idea of dragons is millennia older than that. And that idea is that they're unconquerable.

Job 41

1. Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2. Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3. Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4. Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life?
5. Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls?
6. Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7. Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?
8. If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9. Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.

But we get it, you want dragons for pets. Don't hold your breath.

Pretty much this. Playing devils advocate doesn't really help an argument. I've said my piece. No dragons.

[Qraljar]

Yeah, no. I'm not even going to bother if the opinion of "no dragons" is so enforced in this thread. That's just trying to swim upstream. I'm out.