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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:56 pm 
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Grand Master Hunter
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It would be cool if the winged wolf mount appeared as beasts around the hunter lodge and became tameable.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:56 pm 
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That is the Dragonmaw Clan, not the Horde and Alliance. And last I checked, their clan has mostly been wiped off the map. Most stories you read in lore concerning a race (orcs, vrykul, etc.) enslaving something else, usually dragons, doesn't end well for them.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:08 pm 
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Valnaaros wrote:
We don't know the story behind Leokk, so we don't know how he and Rexxar met, why he chose to travel with Rexxar, etc. Second, not all Wyverns are willingly allied with the Horde. Those that are hostile or neutral are not with them. Seeing as they are capable of speech and understanding what it is they're actually saying (unlike a Parrot, which just copies words without knowing or being truly capable of knowing the meaning), it would be similar to walking into a village and enslaving someone. These Wyvern are, for all purposes, their own race. They are rather primitive, but still a species/race capable of higher thinking.


But as I said... is there any reason why we can't form a bond with a wyvern that chooses to aid us, just as a companion instead of a mount?

Besides, the family won't be like any other considering it's attached to the class hall mount. You won't be seeing a low level running around with a wyvern - only high-leveled hunters that have proven themselves as successful leaders of their order will have access to them. I just think that after all we've done in this game, at the very least we should be on a similar level to other heroes like Rexxar.

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Last edited by Lupen202 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:10 pm 
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Illustrious Master Hunter
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Valnaaros wrote:
In the case of Wyvern, Hippogryph, and Dragon mounts, they all choose to be a mount. Each of them have lore backing them as mounts, and the support for them all being mounts states that they are willingly serving as such.


Valnaaros wrote:
That is the Dragonmaw Clan, not the Horde and Alliance. And last I checked, their clan has mostly been wiped off the map. Most stories you read in lore concerning a race (orcs, vrykul, etc.) enslaving something else, usually dragons, doesn't end well for them.


That's not the point, the point is there are some, be it beast or dragon, that are forced to serve as mounts and you can see them in game riding them. Also when doing the Cata quests, as Horde, you enslave one to be a mount (you don't get to keep him tho :( ). Speaking of Cata, before that expansion Undead couldn't tame beasts (unless they were also undead, see Howling Fjord quests) but the Broken have been able to tame Druids sense BC, so really it's a craps shoot on what we are going to get, until something official comes out. :mrgreen:

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Last edited by Rawr on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:15 pm 
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Lupen202 wrote:
But as I said... is there any reason why we also couldn't form a bond with a wyvern that chooses to aid us willingly? After all, the family won't be like any other considering it's attached to the class hall mount. You won't be seeing a low level running around with a wyvern - only high-leveled hunters that have proven themselves as successful leaders of their order will have access to them.

I think after all we've done in this game, at the very least we should be on a similar level to other heroes like Rexxar.


I like the idea of Horde being able to tame wyverns, Alliance taming gryphons, and both taming hippogryphs. Seems like the best "lore friendly" option as they are Horde, Alliance faction mounts respectively and both can ride hippogryphs. :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:20 pm 
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Artisan Hunter
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Of course we can form a bond with a Wyvern, assuming it is done the right way. Just marching into Wyvern territory and taming the first one you see isn't the right way of doing it. Further, you're assuming that all Wyvern know or care that you're the leader of the Unseen Path (which, canonically, we all aren't). There are several families that I do believe we should be able to tame, but there are others (Wyvern) that we shouldn't unless there is a good reason to it. And in regards to Wyvern, they aren't some random animal that isn't capable of thought like you and I.

If you could, please, link the quest that the enslaving of the dragon occurs in. I vaguely remember it. As for the rest of our mounts, the only ones we actually enslave and ride are the Garrison Stable mounts, and I wouldn't place a Clefthoof on the same tier as a Wyvern. Besides, as I said, many mounts are just there for fun or flavor. They aren't canonically capable of being mounts. Look at Firehawks - they only live two days after hatching.

The Broken only "tamed" one, and that was in the Underbog. The Druid even stated that he wasn't in control of himself, so in no way did that Broken form a bond with the Druid. If anything, he enslaved/mind controlled him.

I agree with Alliance taming Gryphons and both factions taming Hippogryphs. But as I said, not all Wyverns serve the Horde. Many are hostile towards them.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:41 pm 
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The act of taming doesn't have to include bonding, have you ever seen how a wild horse or elephant is broken so someone can ride it? It's horrid and there is no love/bonding in it. People do this all the time to wild and tame animals, they beat them till they submit (see youtube of guy walking a bunch of German Shepards off leash in street, they don't act like that because he bonded with them). Not to say all people do this to their animals/beasts, but what I'm saying is that you don't NEED to bond with something to make it do what you want it to do. Speaking of, the name of the quest is "How to Maim Your Dragon" and I know it's not the only "beat it till it submits" quest, some of our tames are like that even. :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:52 pm 
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Ah yes, that one. As I said, the Dragonmaw aren't around anymore for a reason, and that Dragon really didn't have much of a choice, seeing as it was enslaved via the Demon Chain. And yes, I understand that not all animals are bonded with and that many in-game (mostly the rares) are tamed via lowering them to a certain health, though I would attribute that to a mechanic rather than it actually canonically being something.

And as I have said several times, a Wyvern isn't the same as a wolf or a nightsaber or an eagle. It has enough intelligence to understand and speak Orcish and Taurahe. It has enough intelligence to achieve higher reasoning, which a wolf or eagle cannot. It has enough intelligence to make a choice on whether to ally/bond/befriend with something/someone or not. So going into a Wyvern breeding ground and beating one until it submits is the same as walking into a village and beating a person until they submit.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:29 pm 
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Few things wrong with this, first of why do you keep saying the Dragonmaw "aren't around anymore"? I go quest and get rep/items from them still, I can see them in pandaland end raid, are all factions not in current content "gone"?

Secondly I still don't understand what being able to understand and speak a language has to do with being a pet and higher reasoning isn't there when the one telling you what to do has a bigger stick. Case in point Windcaller Claw who, once freed from Musel'ek, says "How embarrassing to be taken as a pet by a hunter!". :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:39 pm 
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And there goes my last two stable slots...

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:45 pm 
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Because that is past lore. In current lore, the Dragonmaw are no more. You can also go and Kill the Lich King, but does that mean he is still alive in lore? No, he isn't. The Klaxxi are a faction in Pandaria that you can still gain rep with, but does that mean that they are still friendly with us after what happened in SoO? No, they aren't. I can give several examples.

The lore behind Musel'ek (the Broken that enslaved Windcaller Claw), flat out says that he enthralled him, so it wasn't his choice to be a pet. After we snap him out of it, he realizes what happened and is embarrassed.

But with what you said, we should be able to go and tame Wyvern because "we have the bigger stick", even though they sentient creatures just like you and I. It would be like saying that we can go find some random Gnome, beat him till he submits, then make him our pet just because "we have a bigger stick." Higher reasoning doesn't disappear just because you beat someone.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:28 am 
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Pets fight you while you are casting tame pet, so none of our pets are willing. And Claw doesn't "snap out" of it when Musel'ek dies, you have to fight him to a sliver of health. Most pets fight you till death even after their master dies, Claw had to be beat to an inch of his life for him to remember he was a Tauren, he was a pet, a smart pet, but still a pet.

"Higher reasoning doesn't disappear just because you beat someone." Do you know anything about world history? It's full of stories of people being beaten until higher reasoning is gone, it's call brainwashing. Cults use it to get people to drink their coolaid, religions use/used it to get people to do some horrific things, etc......

Wyverns are no more smart than gorillas that know sign-language, they just have vocal cords similar to a humanoids. Not sure why you keep making it out like they are some beacon of intelligence in the wild when parrots can be taught to speak and recognize human words. They have never shown any intellect beyond needing help from harpy attack and that one time a Druid said he talked to one. :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:39 am 
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That is more of a game mechanic than anything else. When you use a hostile spell against a mob, it attacks you. And I never said that he snaps out of it when you kill Musel'ek. He snaps out of it, as you said, when you get him to low health. And the reason for that to happen is due to the nature of Shapeshifting. When a druid shapeshifts, they grapple with the feral side of whatever form they take. The longer they linger in that form, the more their mind becomes that of the animal they are transformed into. Eventually, they fully lose themselves to it, and the only way to change that is either through magical means, or to beat them out of it.

Yes, I'm well aware of brainwashing, and I can't see that as a viable method to bond/befriend/tame/subdue a Wyvern. Rather, that shouldn't be the way it is done. I'm sure we can tame just about anything in WoW if we nearly beat it to death.

You aren't understanding it. A gorilla performs sign-language in order to obtain a reward, usually food. It doesn't truly understand what it is that it is signing. As I mentioned earlier, a Wyvern actually knows the meanings of the words it is speaking. It is capable of having a conversation with you and understand it. I don't think you can have an actual conversation with a parrot.

That Tauren, Pao'ka, isn't said to be a Druid. It is possible, but it is never outright said that he is. If anything, he is a Tauren studying Wyvern. If he was a druid, then why did he need our help to fight he way out of the Wyvern's nesting grounds rather than just shapeshift into a bird and fly away?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:41 am 
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We may have to wind up this two-person debate on whether certain beasts are sentient (though the Korrah's Hippogryph bug was hilarious, I hadn't heard about that :) ). While the discussion is relevant to possible additions to the new family, it's not the central issue and it's now been dominating the discussion for a couple of pages ;P I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the significance of the evidence and just wait and see what Blizzard decides.

Honestly, I hope wyverns aren't included, and I'm sure some people will be annoyed with me for that, but it's not that I don't want to see them tameable, I just think they're an awkward fit in the same family as gryphons and hippogryphs. If you include them just because they have wings, you may as well lump every flying family in the same one ~ birds, bats, chimaeras, everything. I'd love to see them tameable, but in a separate family of leathery/bat-winged magical hybrid creatures, and have gryphons/hippogryphs/owlcats in a distinct family of feathery bird/mammal hybrids.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:11 am 
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Go look up Koko the gorilla and Pao'ka's quest was made in vanilla originally so he couldn't fly. :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:17 am 
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If these magical flying creatures (wyverns or not) become tameable, then Legion will officially have given my stables the biggest overhaul ever. Especially if the spectral versions are spirit beasts (must have all spirit beasts) and BurntGryphSkinRed are available. I've collected more Mechanical pets then originally intended because I liked them so much and can see myself doing it again with this new family...

I'm gonna need a bigger stable...


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:18 am 
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I know about Koko, and again, she doesn't necessarily understand what they mean. Not in the same way you or I do. It flat-out states that Koko's understanding of vocabulary is less than that of a young human child.

Actually, whilst Flight Form did not exist, The Druids of the Talon and the Crow Form did exist in lore for thousands of years prior. Most druids are capable of at least transforming into a crow or bat. Further, in Teldrassil, there has always been a quest where you had to free captured Druids of the Talon. What did they do when they were freed? They turned into birds and flew away. There are plenty of other examples that I could give.

It seems to me that your of the mentality "lore be damned, just give me more pets", and that is your prerogative. But that doesn't change that fact that most decisions Blizz makes is based even a bit on existing lore. Wyvern are capable of speech and higher levels of thought, just like you and I.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:39 am 
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"Lore be damned" is what happened in Cata when Blizzard said "to Molten Core with lore lets let everything fly", I don't see why all of a sudden now they would follow lore. Before Cata Undead couldn't be Hunters, several NPCs in-game even talked about it (not sure why Humans couldn't before then). Rexxar, for forever was a Beastmaster doesn't matter where you look, he was always a Beastmaster. Legion hits, boom, Rexxar is now a Survival Hunter.....

Blizzard doesn't stick to any lore in this game for long (we went back in time just to rewrite it), just look at Beastmasters now, our lore was one with beasts, now its zookeeper with lightning gun. I mean what part of Beastmaster lore says machines, mechagnomes, and Titans? Not going into other specs/classes (glares at her rogue) and I'm done for now. :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:47 am 
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I... don't see how Blizz allowing flying in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms has anything to do with lore. There isn't a reason why Humans and Undead couldn't be Hunters, outside of game mechanics. They wanted to create a balance of available race/class combos between Horde and Alliance. Same reason why Blood Elves couldn't be Warriors or Trolls couldn't be Magi. No lore reason behind it.

In regards to Rexxar, I do partially agree, though I think that is also a game mechanic more than anything else.

Whilst Titanstrike doesn't fit BM very well, it is Blizz's design choice. It doesn't mean they aren't following lore by making it a thing.

Blizz has Retconned things in the past, that is true, but it doesn't mean they should continue to do so, especially just so you can get what you want.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:37 am 
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Last thing, just because I don't like being misinterpreted, when I said "let everything fly", I wasn't talking about mounts, I was using the expression 'to let (something) fly'. Meaning to ignore something or let it pass. :mrgreen:

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