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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:45 am 
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http://www.wowhead.com/item=151012/marsuul-egg&bonus=1826:1667

Above is the proof that they lay eggs; and rodents don't lay eggs. So what does that mean? Marsuul should had not been in the same group as porcupine and labelled as rodents.

The only mammals that lay eggs are platypus and echidnas; monotremes. But the lack of beak makes it an impossible candidate to be a monotreme.

So what does that mean? Marsuul is an alien life form that cannot be grouped with known mammal as it's either a new order within the Mammal group or it's can be classified as a synapsids which are proto mammals.

Panthara too seems to have scale like hide and other attributes to proto mammals, thus both Marsuul and Panthara should be group together into a single proto mammal family; Argsuial.

I propose a new Mammal order in Warcraft for terrestrial omnivores of Argus named Argusial and I propose this tamable family can only be found on Argus, making Argus very unique of being the only zone to have this family.

My suggested family abilities are 'Prowl' and 'Bio-Luminescent'. Bio-Luminescent is the same as the Fox's family ability but with effects of showing bio lights surrounding the beasts, increasing their evasiveness.

We already have large sewers rats, squirrels and beavers in game; make them tamable and group them with porcupines for the new rodent family.

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Last edited by pop on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:56 am 
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I disagree with Panthara, seeing as they are far too similar to Cats to not be in that family. Further much of what you are saying is based off of RL biology, which doesn't always have a place in a world filled with undead, dragons, and magic, but I digree. As good of ideas as those are, I would much rather Blizz actually work on the existing families than to create another family with no unique abilities.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:57 am 
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I think the "rodent" classification was just one of convenience. It's not what I would have chosen either, but at least they're tameable :) I love them :) The model designers clearly intended them to be a kind of Argus take on the weasel, and there are a few things to support that, but to enable that they would have had to create a new family and it seems they didn't want to.

I wouldn't support them being grouped with panthara in a single family as I don't think their form and attacks would support it. I think pet families need to be as much about how a beast attacks as what it would be genetically related to.

But that also reinforces my feeling that they don't belong with porcupines. The new family is by default tenacity (tank!) because of the pocupine origin, even though marsuul (and most rodents) would clearly be Cunning by default.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:34 am 
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Maybe the topic about genetic, evolution and stuff would be more apropriate for that conversation ? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=24747
(That I find interesting. I have stuff to say about the evolution on Argus)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:34 am 
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Valnaaros wrote:
I disagree with Panthara, seeing as they are far too similar to Cats to not be in that family. Further much of what you are saying is based off of RL biology, which doesn't always have a place in a world filled with undead, dragons, and magic, but I digree. As good of ideas as those are, I would much rather Blizz actually work on the existing families than to create another family with no unique abilities.

If we are not going by real life biology, we should not use biological terms like rodents.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:35 am 
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Wain wrote:
I think the "rodent" classification was just one of convenience. It's not what I would have chosen either, but at least they're tameable :) I love them :) The model designers clearly intended them to be a kind of Argus take on the weasel, and there are a few things to support that, but to enable that they would have had to create a new family and it seems they didn't want to.

I wouldn't support them being grouped with panthara in a single family as I don't think their form and attacks would support it. I think pet families need to be as much about how a beast attacks as what it would be genetically related to.

But that also reinforces my feeling that they don't belong with porcupines. The new family is by default tenacity (tank!) because of the pocupine origin, even though marsuul (and most rodents) would clearly be Cunning by default.

If by genetics, I see them as same as other synapids, marsupials and monotremes; family members have extreme morphological differences but they share traits such as the way they reproduce.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:00 am 
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They're aliens that resemble rodents, but fall under the classification of Monotreme. That is, egg-laying mammals. In real life, Platypus and Echidna are the only ones, and you can pretty much call them rodents since they look like giant mutant rats anyway. Another fun fact, that I totally didn't google, is that some ancient mammals by the broad name of Prototheria were very rodent-like and laid eggs. It's safe to assume that Marsuul are just alien dinosaur rats.

Edit: It's 4 am. Why did I go out of my way to learn about prehistoric mammals that laid eggs?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:27 am 
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Because it's interesting.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:03 am 
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WerebearGuy wrote:
They're aliens that resemble rodents, but fall under the classification of Monotreme. That is, egg-laying mammals. In real life, Platypus and Echidna are the only ones, and you can pretty much call them rodents since they look like giant mutant rats anyway. Another fun fact, that I totally didn't google, is that some ancient mammals by the broad name of Prototheria were very rodent-like and laid eggs. It's safe to assume that Marsuul are just alien dinosaur rats.

Edit: It's 4 am. Why did I go out of my way to learn about prehistoric mammals that laid eggs?


Rodents are defined by their incisors and the early rodent like mammals have different types of incisors and also are more like shrews instead of actual rodents. Like I said, rodents are placentals which means that they can't lay eggs; if they do lay eggs they aren't rodents.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:10 am 
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pop wrote:
If by genetics, I see them as same as other synapids, marsupials and monotremes; family members have extreme morphological differences but they share traits such as the way they reproduce.

Yeah but unless they attack with their reproductive organs they don't necessarily make sense in the same Hunter pet family :) Thylacines and kangaroos are both marsupials, but (if they were in the game) it would be silly to put them in the same hunter family as their attack styles would be different.

I would have preferred marsuul to be placed in a family with a generic name (as we discussed before) that allowed the addition of all kinds of gnaw-toothed, slinky mammal-like things. Like they did with Scalehides.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:18 am 
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Yep, wow has nothing to do with real biology--species from different planets shouldn't be related to each other at all, much less be able to interbreed (half-orcs!!).

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:00 am 
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GormanGhaste wrote:
Yep, wow has nothing to do with real biology--species from different planets shouldn't be related to each other at all, much less be able to interbreed (half-orcs!!).

Except that both Orcs and Draenei are placental species. Marsuuls laying eggs making it a totally different kind of animal than a rodent because rodents are placentals animals. Do you really want to breed an egg laying animal with a live birth animals? That would only produce something that wants it to be killed upon given birth, or at least a yolk-like-fetus without any sort of shell which is sucks.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:54 am 
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GormanGhaste wrote:
Yep, wow has nothing to do with real biology--species from different planets shouldn't be related to each other at all, much less be able to interbreed (half-orcs!!).


There are inspirations from RL biology, but they don't copy it 100%. Honestly, the Marsuuls are just an alien version of a Weasel, and it just so happens to lay eggs. Going into it any further is nonsensical. There are tons of Pet families that wouldn't make sense or be able to exist in the real world.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:51 am 
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pop wrote:
Do you really want to breed an egg laying animal with a live birth animals? That would only produce something that wants it to be killed upon given birth, or at least a yolk-like-fetus without any sort of shell which is sucks


Why would their classification mean that they could "breed" together? Not all RL rodents can be interbred (example: mice cannot breed with capybara), so why should that have any bearing in a fantasy universe?? There is no functional or detailed system of taxonomic rank on any WoW planet, nor do we have any details on the genetic makeup of any of these creatures, so there really is no way of using breeding possibilities to classify creatures.

If you really wanted to get into it, an egg-laying rodent would at the very least be in an entirely different genus than placental rodents, because they would not produce viable offspring. HOWEVER, that does not mean that both are not rodents. The order Rodentia would include both animals, since the main criterion for being in that order of animals would be that they're mammals with continuously growing upper and lower incisors.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:55 am 
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The bottom line is, it's convenient to add them to an existing hunter pet family. Unless WoW adds a "fantasy zoologist" class, it won't matter.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:58 am 
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Rhaenia wrote:
The bottom line is, it's convenient to add them to an existing hunter pet family. Unless WoW adds a "fantasy zoologist" class, it won't matter.


Basically, this. RL biology can only apply so much in a fantasy world.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:38 am 
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Rhaenia wrote:
pop wrote:
Do you really want to breed an egg laying animal with a live birth animals? That would only produce something that wants it to be killed upon given birth, or at least a yolk-like-fetus without any sort of shell which is sucks


Why would their classification mean that they could "breed" together? Not all RL rodents can be interbred (example: mice cannot breed with capybara), so why should that have any bearing in a fantasy universe?? There is no functional or detailed system of taxonomic rank on any WoW planet, nor do we have any details on the genetic makeup of any of these creatures, so there really is no way of using breeding possibilities to classify creatures.

If you really wanted to get into it, an egg-laying rodent would at the very least be in an entirely different genus than placental rodents, because they would not produce viable offspring. HOWEVER, that does not mean that both are not rodents. The order Rodentia would include both animals, since the main criterion for being in that order of animals would be that they're mammals with continuously growing upper and lower incisors.

Because I was replying to someone who talked about interbreeding Orcs?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:40 am 
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Rhaenia wrote:
The bottom line is, it's convenient to add them to an existing hunter pet family. Unless WoW adds a "fantasy zoologist" class, it won't matter.

Why is it you are the one who gets to define what is the bottom line? As far as wow concern, Hunters are the fantasy zoologist class hence why we learn Bestiary and Beast Lore.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:41 am 
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Valnaaros wrote:
Rhaenia wrote:
The bottom line is, it's convenient to add them to an existing hunter pet family. Unless WoW adds a "fantasy zoologist" class, it won't matter.


Basically, this. RL biology can only apply so much in a fantasy world.

By that logic, my point of Panthara are not cats and Marsuuls are not rodents still stands

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:55 am 
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We know very little about many species of animals in Azeroth, and we know even less about their genetics. Hunters and Druids may study and learn about animals, but the lore is far from complete.

As I said, it can only apply so much, and not everything is lore based. Are Pantharas cats? No, but they have a very similar appearance to cats, have a similar social structure, sound the same, etc. Making a seperate family for them is like what Blizz did for Rylaks and Chimaera, or were going to do with Mana Sabers and Cats.

Marsuuls do not have an RL equivalent. We cannot really base it off of anything 100%. But if Blizz went out of their way to change Porcupines to Rodents, for the sake of including the Marsuuls, then that is what Marsuuls are. You don't have to like or agree with it.


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