Open Debate: The New Talent System

Moonlost · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:39 am

It's been just a little under a week since Blizzcon and I think that's been more than enough time for things to simmer down a little. All the surprise and excitement is pretty much over, leaving us staring at the few facts we know. (Well, so long as Blizzard decides to keep all the new features they've announced anyway.)
One of the biggest, and arguably most controversial, changes announced is the talent tree revamp. Gone is our branching mass of abilities separated into three distinct specialisations, replaced instead by one 'path'. I've heard many different opinions on the matter; Some people feel that this is dumbing the game down to ridiculous levels, others think that this is a fresh and exciting new series of choices for our characters. Still more are unsure on what to make of the system and are waiting to see it in action before judging.

For those unaware, or confused about the details, here's a brief summary of the new system (As I understand it myself, I may have some of the details wrong):
Come patch 5.0, your character will be able to choose from one of three (or four, in the case of the druid) talent specialisations which will govern the role you will take, not unlike the system currently in place. What is unlike the current system is that you will only be able to pick one 'talent' every 15 levels from a selection of three, with six 'tiers' of talents in total. These new talents will be shared among each specialisation with the goal of having each talent be useful to each specialisation in some way. You will only ever be able to pick one talent per tier, but swapping between a talent you have picked has been stated to be no more difficult than swapping out a glyph.
A preview of the new talent system can be found on Wowhead here.
As you level, you will automatically gain access to specialisation abilities. These are spells and powers only available to your chosen specialisation, akin to the ability-giving talents currently in place. (An example would be Aimed Shot for Marksman Hunters, or Stormstrike for Enhancement Shaman.)

This site has a lot of people with a pretty good head on their shoulders and is less prone to, shall we say, overly emotional outbursts. There have been the few exceptions, but in general we're a pretty smart and cool bunch. Certainly less rabid than many other forums out there. As such, I'm very curious to see people's thoughts on the new talent path and I would like to encourage an open discussion and debate on the subject.
Do you think that this is yet another nail in the coffin of World of Warcraft; a desperate attempt to dumb down this aspect of gameplay in order to appeal to the lowest masses? Or do you think that this is an innovative idea, one which has the potential to make the game that much more compelling?

~

As for myself?

I've thought long and hard about this new system. Initially, I was quite confused by this new change. Not particularly angry, but I had to wonder why this was necessary. I've been playing the game for a good number of years now and this is the most radical change to our talent system to date. Gone was my familiar branching sprawl of coloured icons, replaced with a rather boring looking set of eighteen abilities with a set, linear progression. "Why was one of the most identifiable systems of World of Warcraft changed?" I asked myself.

Then I stopped to consider our current talent setup.

To quote from some very, very smart people:

Quote:

At first glance, the talent trees are full of tough choices. But, ask any experienced WoW player and they'll tell you that there are a few best builds for any given class. [...] Anyway, the reason there are best builds for any given class is that, rather than being fundamentally different, all of a player's decisions regarding a talent tree can be related to the same question. "Does this raise my Damage per Second?" or "Does this raise my Healing Output?", etcetera. By putting a common currency behind all these choices, they cease to be choices and become problems with definitive answers. Calculations.

In simpler terms, outside of a few specialised builds, our current talent trees have little real choice to them. There is one, maybe two builds for each talent tree, with a few points here and there that you can spend freely. We had a little more choice in our system pre-cataclysm for more outlandish builds, but in general there was only one correct way to talent yourself for maxiumum DPS/Heals/Survivability and deviating from that would have you branded as a noob.
Moreover, were talent trees ever really that much fun? I'm not a math geek. I don't theorycraft personally. Every so often I head over to Elitist jerks, find out the optimal talent specialisation for my class, copy it and then promptly forget about it. That... doesn't sound like engaging game-play to me.

I want the difficulty of my game to come not from the coloured icons I choose to make on my talent selection screen (or have other, smarter people choose for me), but from the encounters I have to face and the strategies I have to pull off. I want to make my own decisions towards how my character plays, rather than rely on others to tell me how. This new talent system has the potential to actually give players choice in how their character plays, if Blizzard manages to do it right. I doubt it'll be perfect, nothing ever is, but I am very hopeful and can't wait to try it out in beta.

Kalliope · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:10 am

Well-said, Moonlost.

This is exactly why I'm excited about the new system! (And why I keep hoping pet talent trees will go the same way.) The new talent options are the thing I'm thus far most excited for in the expansion. Every choice is interesting and feels necessary. Each tier is a treasure trove of appealing options that can be arranged to the player's liking. Sure, I'm sure there will be favorite cookie cutter choices for certain situations, but there's going to be a lot more room for personal preference to factor in.

Color me happy.

Worba · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:09 pm

This is like the upcoming change to pet talents imo - replacing the illusion of choice (read: wall of pretty icons) with a small, meaningful list.

I'm for it. Needless complexity <> cool.

Kalliope · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:02 pm

I haven't seen that actually confirmed anywhere, Worba, only some speculation that pet talents are on the chopping block. Have you seen otherwise? I do hope so; I just haven't seen it.

Vephriel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:35 pm

Fully in agreement as well Moonlost.

I'm loving the look of it so far and I can't wait to fiddle around with the new talents. I'd much prefer these fun, meaningful choices rather than (as Worba said) having just an illusion of choice.

Slickrock · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:55 pm

I don't have any problem with the change. The best thing about it is it will eliminate much of uninformed players having really really bad specs.

It will also help out less skilled players in certain classes by making some talents that were difficult to master optional. (See GC's comments about RNG based abilities for ret paladins).

Worba · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:27 pm

Kalliope wrote:

I haven't seen that actually confirmed anywhere, Worba, only some speculation that pet talents are on the chopping block. Have you seen otherwise? I do hope so; I just haven't seen it.

The voices told me so.

Kalliope · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Worba wrote:

Kalliope wrote:

I haven't seen that actually confirmed anywhere, Worba, only some speculation that pet talents are on the chopping block. Have you seen otherwise? I do hope so; I just haven't seen it.

The voices told me so.

Ha! As long as the voices are blue....

Junrei · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:21 pm

Well said, Moonlost. Definitely agreed. At first it seems kinda like "WTF D:" but after you think about it.....it's something we've needed. We needed something to shed the cookie cutter specs.

Shalyth · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:49 pm

i dont mind this change except for one thing for druids specifically. Lvl 75, 2 of their abilities requires bear form, and if you use it while not in bear for, your instantly forced into that form. The only one that works for any other shapeshift is Ursol's Vortex which pulls enemies within a certain range of you to you. I dont like these options at all, the only useful ones appeal to bear form only and i really dont care for the vortex, its a terrible ability imo, if it could pull single mobs to me, then i would choose it but otherwise, i am dissapointed and a little ticked off that i waste an important talent when they now are very few and far inbetween just to be able to unlock the lvl 90 talents. I seriously hope they change them around, make demoralize roar a spell not talent and replace it with a unique feral ability like Leader of the Pack which say, increases armor by X% and attack power by X% for bear form and increases crit and attack power by X% for cat form, and change Ursol's Vortex to be moonkin friendly, and get rid of Bear Hug (since it renders you unable to move or attack, it cancels the effect if you do either) and make a resto friendly talent.

Junrei · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:42 pm

Xakaal wrote:

i dont mind this change except for one thing for druids specifically. Lvl 75, 2 of their abilities requires bear form, and if you use it while not in bear for, your instantly forced into that form. The only one that works for any other shapeshift is Ursol's Vortex which pulls enemies within a certain range of you to you. I dont like these options at all, the only useful ones appeal to bear form only and i really dont care for the vortex, its a terrible ability imo, if it could pull single mobs to me, then i would choose it but otherwise, i am dissapointed and a little ticked off that i waste an important talent when they now are very few and far inbetween just to be able to unlock the lvl 90 talents. I seriously hope they change them around, make demoralize roar a spell not talent and replace it with a unique feral ability like Leader of the Pack which say, increases armor by X% and attack power by X% for bear form and increases crit and attack power by X% for cat form, and change Ursol's Vortex to be moonkin friendly, and get rid of Bear Hug (since it renders you unable to move or attack, it cancels the effect if you do either) and make a resto friendly talent.

Not really a waste cause bears have a hard time aggroing bigger groups. Bears dont have Death and Decay or anything like that.

Shalyth · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:47 pm

id like to see them make demoralize roar a high aggro attack then, as well as the current attack power reduction, im definitely getting turned off my druids cause of this, id need to see the new spells (if they do make a lot of the talents they got rid of as spells to buy) before i contemplate seriously using my night elf for anything beyond bouncing around and flying people places with her alch drake (still regret using it on her and not my hunter /sigh)

Kalliope · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:39 pm

Xakaal wrote:

The only one that works for any other shapeshift is Ursol's Vortex which pulls enemies within a certain range of you to you.

AoE death grip. I think that speaks for itself for PvP.

Shalyth · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:08 pm

i wouldnt like the idea of DGing 6 ally to me only to have them all gank me and continue on their merry way....

Rawr · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:21 pm

I want them to release the skills with tool tips. GC said Kill Command would be the BM signature shot (finally), I want to see what we are getting. (Also I'm hoping beyond hope that we get EotB back) :mrgreen:

Kalliope · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:11 pm

Xakaal wrote:

i wouldnt like the idea of DGing 6 ally to me only to have them all gank me and continue on their merry way....

Think of it from a Horde perspective. If you're a tauren, you can grip+warstomp them all.

Also, owls could grip enemies in, then blast them back with typhoon.

Shrug. Just takes thinking outside the box.

Makoes · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:49 pm

I think Moonlost, that you pretty much summed it all up for me.

initially I'd been a bit miffed at the dumbing down, but now I look at it and I am looking forward to being able to just focus on making my characters play the way I want without the cookie cutter build.

Jadein92 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:12 am

Jessibelle wrote:

Xakaal wrote:

i dont mind this change except for one thing for druids specifically. Lvl 75, 2 of their abilities requires bear form, and if you use it while not in bear for, your instantly forced into that form. The only one that works for any other shapeshift is Ursol's Vortex which pulls enemies within a certain range of you to you. I dont like these options at all, the only useful ones appeal to bear form only and i really dont care for the vortex, its a terrible ability imo, if it could pull single mobs to me, then i would choose it but otherwise, i am dissapointed and a little ticked off that i waste an important talent when they now are very few and far inbetween just to be able to unlock the lvl 90 talents. I seriously hope they change them around, make demoralize roar a spell not talent and replace it with a unique feral ability like Leader of the Pack which say, increases armor by X% and attack power by X% for bear form and increases crit and attack power by X% for cat form, and change Ursol's Vortex to be moonkin friendly, and get rid of Bear Hug (since it renders you unable to move or attack, it cancels the effect if you do either) and make a resto friendly talent.

Not really a waste cause bears have a hard time aggroing bigger groups. Bears dont have Death and Decay or anything like that.

Not necessarily, bears have swipe and Thrash for AoE threat, also with Maul glyphed they hit 2 targets. Imo bears are great aoe tanks. Plus Beserking + tab target mangle spam = AoE threat heaven.

Junrei · **Posted:** Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:16 am

Can't really swipe spam anymore though. Swipe is on cooldown. I've tried.

It helps a little with Berserk but if thats on cooldown, eh....

Jadein92 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:23 am

But with Thrash as an added swipe, but with an extra dot on each target.

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Open Debate: The New Talent System

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