Ghostcrawler on Hunters Again

[Miacoda]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2221 ... he-future/

A few points on hunters, gathered from several threads:

We don't want for dots just to ignore crowd control. It's a test of skill for players to decide when to dot and when to CC. However, that's not a fair requirement for attacks that you can't prevent, such as Piercing Shots and MM mastery. Those probably do need to pause or do no damage to CC'd targets.

We're still tweaking focus regen. It does feel a little slow right now.

Stampede needs to appear at the target or you lose too much of the brief duration with the pets moving to the target. It also needs to have a long cooldown and short duration, because it's an awful lot of DPS to have so many pets out. The alternative would be that the extra pets do a lot less damage each, but we didn't feel like that really delivered on the fantasy of "opening the stable."

We want traps to be good CC. Traps are one of the signature hunter mechanics, and we'd rather make them good than just let players ignore them and do all their CC with shots. Improving CC in this way will also give hunters better synergy with other classes in PvP, rather than the hunter's viability being determined by how awesome their burst damage is.

We're still looking at expertise, dodge and running a lot of PvP tests right now. We do think it's a bit disingenuous to argue that melee are always behind their targets in PvP. Just ask any Backstabbing rogue or Shredding druid. Overall, we're still comfortable with the idea of ranged attacks able to be dodged. It's a little weird to argue any of this stuff based on "reality" but heroes so awesome that they could dodge arrows or bullets certainly exist in literature and cinema. If you can leap through the air towards your foe (or backwards in the case of a hunter), shield block a giant, or cast a fireball, then being able to dodge a shot shouldn't be the thing that breaks the suspension of disbelief.

(As an aside, when I was working on historical RTS games, I read that there was some evidence that Native Americans had some skill in dodging arrows, which may have been one of the things that led to their adopting firearms, given that firearms at the time were pretty inferior to arrows or javelins in most other ways. That still doesn't settle whether dodging arrows in a fantasy game with paladins and mages is reasonable or not.)

If it's an undue burden for PvP, then that's another thing (though we think the jury is still out on that), but arguing it's not realistic is a bit... er... dodgy.

[Makoes]

I am happy about the focus regen bit. As much as I really like focus, the amount of time I spend spamming cobra shot to replenish it is to much. I miss being able to cast KC and arcane shot more then 2-3 times, before needing to regain my mana. I am not sure which would be better, tweaking the regen rate or lowering the cost of spells...considering that we have a constant cap on it, having an ability that costs 40focus takes a huge chunk out...

Being able to dodge arrows, makes sense to me really. I might not like it, but it makes sense. And love GC's comments on it, lol.

"If you can leap through the air towards your foe (or backwards in the case of a hunter), shield block a giant, or cast a fireball, then being able to dodge a shot shouldn't be the thing that breaks the suspension of disbelief."

Odd as it might sound I am only now just starting to really focus on throwing traps into my rotation, especially when it comes to mobs, and I am loving the additional boost to my DPS that i am now getting. I'd always assumed that traps where more a SV thing then BM, and only used them for CC. But now I am getting into using them for dps as well, still learning Beta having trap launcher toggled is awsome, being able to launch the trap in one move instead of multi-steps is awsome!!

[Miacoda]

I agree that focus regen is just... ugh.

And the new trap launcher toggle really helps with traps! I use traps as BM even in live, but not as much as I would with the way trap launcher is there. In beta it's so much easier, though. I love it!

[Kalliope]

Totally agreed on the new trap launcher. I had major trouble shooting traps on the run before that change.

I don't think stacking expertise for PvP is a big deal. I mean, the other agility-based classes have to do that, so I'm sure we can find the room for the stats somewhere. If we're losing too much haste or something for steady and other casts, then maybe toss us some passive expertise so we can operate at full capacity with less of it on gear. I agree that arguing that there's no basis for dodging bullets or arrows is kind of silly. Deterrence (for example) used to deflect all attacks fully. There is a precedent.

Very glad focus regen is still being looked at, especially if we have to give up other stats (including haste) for expertise. It was a problem before, but maybe now a solution will come to light.

[Derax]

A few points on hunters, gathered from several threads:

We don't want for dots just to ignore crowd control. It's a test of skill for players to decide when to dot and when to CC. However, that's not a fair requirement for attacks that you can't prevent, such as Piercing Shots and MM mastery. Those probably do need to pause or do no damage to CC'd targets.

Agree. But having attacks we can't prevent not cause damage or get paused cause they could break CC, I think that would kinda be dumb just make it so they still do damage just doesn't break CC. Why punish us for a mechanic they tossed in.

We're still tweaking focus regen. It does feel a little slow right now.

Yay!

Stampede needs to appear at the target or you lose too much of the brief duration with the pets moving to the target. It also needs to have a long cooldown and short duration, because it's an awful lot of DPS to have so many pets out. The alternative would be that the extra pets do a lot less damage each, but we didn't feel like that really delivered on the fantasy of "opening the stable."

Unless you turn around and have your back facing the enemy you loose this precious DPS he talks about. Need to find a way to make it not loose initial dps when you first start it and the cooldown needs to be like 5 minutes. I would vote that it be changed all together it seems underwhelming, I would instead like something like this March of the Machines (If you played dota you will know this) but done to scale for our pets.

We want traps to be good CC. Traps are one of the signature hunter mechanics, and we'd rather make them good than just let players ignore them and do all their CC with shots. Improving CC in this way will also give hunters better synergy with other classes in PvP, rather than the hunter's viability being determined by how awesome their burst damage is.

Traps I HATE them they maybe what makes a hunter a hunter and I think that is the only reason they keep them. I do have to say the toggle of trap launcher makes this much better. Before if you wanted to trap someone in PvP you would have to : Hit Trap launcher --> Scatter shot --> Hit your trap. All this just to get 1 cc off is kinda dumb and this doesn't even include if something broke scatter shot. Now you just cut off the first part leaving Trap launcher toggled on, You still need to scatter shot due to a trap need to 'arm' itself ...

I would vote they just ditch the entire trap system and give us Freezing arrow (Arrow goes directly toward the CC target and freezes him in ice), Frost Arrow (Its just like binding shot you shoot an frosty arrow at the ground and it causes the ground to freeze around it in X yards slowing all targets.) Fire arrow (Takes place of Immo trap, Shoots the Target and causes him to catch on fire burning for X amount for X amount of time.) Scorching arrow (Binding shot kinda arrow again same as Frost arrow but instead of frost its fire instead of slow its damage.) and lastly Snake Trap.. I don't know what can be done to make this an arrow.

We're still looking at expertise, dodge and running a lot of PvP tests right now. We do think it's a bit disingenuous to argue that melee are always behind their targets in PvP. Just ask any Backstabbing rogue or Shredding druid. Overall, we're still comfortable with the idea of ranged attacks able to be dodged. It's a little weird to argue any of this stuff based on "reality" but heroes so awesome that they could dodge arrows or bullets certainly exist in literature and cinema. If you can leap through the air towards your foe (or backwards in the case of a hunter), shield block a giant, or cast a fireball, then being able to dodge a shot shouldn't be the thing that breaks the suspension of disbelief.

(As an aside, when I was working on historical RTS games, I read that there was some evidence that Native Americans had some skill in dodging arrows, which may have been one of the things that led to their adopting firearms, given that firearms at the time were pretty inferior to arrows or javelins in most other ways. That still doesn't settle whether dodging arrows in a fantasy game with paladins and mages is reasonable or not.)

If it's an undue burden for PvP, then that's another thing (though we think the jury is still out on that), but arguing it's not realistic is a bit... er... dodgy.

I may not know what I am talking about here since I don't play other classes let alone pay attention to what they do or have, but I think the problem with expertise from me reading these things in pvp is that other classes that need hit and expertise they can go behind the player and negate the need for expertise since attacks can't be dodged from behind. Us on the other hand with us being range and the "kite" class in pvp we can never get behind the player to negate the need for expertise so we NEED to have both at cap instead of maybe allowing a slack in one like other classes since they can just stay behind a player.

I could be completely off base if so enlighten me

As far as the IRL people can dodge arrows or whatever this is a game not reality I don't see orcs and cows walking around...

[Sesamee]

I agree that focus regen is just... ugh.

And the new trap launcher toggle really helps with traps! I use traps as BM even in live, but not as much as I would with the way trap launcher is there. In beta it's so much easier, though. I love it!

OK maybe this is me being incredibly stupid but I don't like the new trap launcher on Beta at all. I'm a keybinder and having to click each trap is a pain. Am I missing something? As of now it won't let me put the individual traps on my action bars and macros that I use on live don't work. If it's something simple that I'm totally overlooking I'm going to feel really dumb lol.

[Kalliope]

I agree that focus regen is just... ugh.

And the new trap launcher toggle really helps with traps! I use traps as BM even in live, but not as much as I would with the way trap launcher is there. In beta it's so much easier, though. I love it!

OK maybe this is me being incredibly stupid but I don't like the new trap launcher on Beta at all. I'm a keybinder and having to click each trap is a pain. Am I missing something? As of now it won't let me put the individual traps on my action bars and macros that I use on live don't work. If it's something simple that I'm totally overlooking I'm going to feel really dumb lol.

You can still stick the individual traps on your bars; just drag those icons from your spellbook instead of the all-purpose trap icon. There's nothing anywhere that says to do that and it's not exactly intuitive, so don't feel stupid.

[Malackai]

Personally while i do find the abrupt change strange I do not mind we have to stack expertise to lower the dodge of our attacks however what bothers me most is our own dodge rate atm.

The reason our dodge was pound in the floor was the fact our shots where not dodge able so they wanted to give melee a fair chance to hit us.

I wonder if they reverse this back as well?

It seems where still being treated like half caster and half melee. yet we are considered neither when it comes to the benefits.

Traps are considered spells and can be silenced.
Our casting shots suffer delays when being hit just like a caster.

Now we have to deal with dodge like a melee.
Yet when it comes to our own dodge were not on par with other agi melee classes. So now we have people that can dodge our stuff on top of that yet we cant dodge pretty much anything.
We can still be disarmed? like other melee (which basically prevents us from doing anything) and for now we have absolutely no way to counter this.

Other classes seem to have at least a more variation when it comes to enchants or procs.
And we are still stuck with 2 lackluster scopes.

I Really hope blizzard finally makes up there mind on where we fit on either the Melee side or the caster side but not both.

[Sasrei]

I just hope they fix hunters for pvp... on live it can be frustrating but now if beta goes live like it is currently with the whole missing/low focus regen I suspect much.. much pain. I enjoy pvping every now and then, not some hardcore pvper but I like it just hope they fix our dodge and focus stuff. Pvp can be frustrating enough as a hunter so itd be nice if they finally showed us some pvp love ...

PVE looks ok as long as we can get it to the spot of not missing with just upping expertise/hit im fine with that. Hope they rework stampede.. I mean sure its cool but id rather it be useful. Waiting 10 mins for a short duration that spent most of the time running to the target seems like a sad sad waste..

[Sesamee]

I agree that focus regen is just... ugh.

And the new trap launcher toggle really helps with traps! I use traps as BM even in live, but not as much as I would with the way trap launcher is there. In beta it's so much easier, though. I love it!

OK maybe this is me being incredibly stupid but I don't like the new trap launcher on Beta at all. I'm a keybinder and having to click each trap is a pain. Am I missing something? As of now it won't let me put the individual traps on my action bars and macros that I use on live don't work. If it's something simple that I'm totally overlooking I'm going to feel really dumb lol.

You can still stick the individual traps on your bars; just drag those icons from your spellbook instead of the all-purpose trap icon. There's nothing anywhere that says to do that and it's not exactly intuitive, so don't feel stupid.

Hmm that's what it's not letting me do. Maybe it's bugged? On live I use macros that let me launch each trap from it's own hot key. Some like Freezing Trap I keybind to drop right when I hit the button and a macro to let me launch it since I need both for pvp. The macro's aren't working on Beta atm but I'm pretty sure that's a bug. At least I know I'm not a total space case lol. Thanks!

[Kalliope]

Hmm that's what it's not letting me do. Maybe it's bugged? On live I use macros that let me launch each trap from it's own hot key. Some like Freezing Trap I keybind to drop right when I hit the button and a macro to let me launch it since I need both for pvp. The macro's aren't working on Beta atm but I'm pretty sure that's a bug. At least I know I'm not a total space case lol. Thanks!

I just logged in to grab a screenshot, but the traps are no longer individually listed in my spellbook, despite the icons remaining on my bars. O_O Hrmph. Maybe try making a macro for the individual trap (/cast Snake Trap) and then bind that button?

[Tankperson]

I hate focus I really do, deffently During pvp it always seems like no matter how much haste I have that when I need it to get a shot off I'm fresh out. It dosn't reduce the cast time of SS enough to really make it worth it as we have to stand still and be a damn sitting duck while trying to regen focus with it cuase it's a stupid channel ablity. Now if we didn't have to stnad still and kept our AP bonus though Aspect of the Hawk it would be really good.

I miss the days of getting into a group looking over and seeing that you have more mana then the healer and thus knowing it would be a long Heroic.

[Gimlion]

I just hope they fix hunters for pvp... on live it can be frustrating but now if beta goes live like it is currently with the whole missing/low focus regen I suspect much.. much pain. I enjoy pvping every now and then, not some hardcore pvper but I like it just hope they fix our dodge and focus stuff. Pvp can be frustrating enough as a hunter so itd be nice if they finally showed us some pvp love ...

PVE looks ok as long as we can get it to the spot of not missing with just upping expertise/hit im fine with that. Hope they rework stampede.. I mean sure its cool but id rather it be useful. Waiting 10 mins for a short duration that spent most of the time running to the target seems like a sad sad waste..

Honestly, I do much better at PvP than PvE. I enjoy PvP, particularly as a hunter, and I'm fairly decent at it.

[Sasrei]

I dont do bad in pvp either and I do do quite a lot of damage and get kills its just that unfortunately for me the oppossition has this mindset of "see hunter must kill" and ignore the healer beside me and the flag guy running past to all attack me

Wish we had something to get rid of dots, and more stuns/interrupts. I also tend to be even now having issues with focus and its regen capabilities.

[Tankperson]

I dont do bad in pvp either and I do do quite a lot of damage and get kills its just that unfortunately for me the oppossition has this mindset of "see hunter must kill" and ignore the healer beside me and the flag guy running past to all attack me

Wish we had something to get rid of dots, and more stuns/interrupts. I also tend to be even now having issues with focus and its regen capabilities.

I hate that, I think it's more ingrained to them to kill the hunter first as when your leveling you get a well geared skill hunter in pvp they can own a field of battle. I remember leveling Been at 14 in WSG not having a lick of heirloom gear and burning out 100 HK's before the BG was half over. I can remember being BM and having Kill Command One shot most classes with a dps pet.