More hunter nerfs coming... sigh...

Neilaren · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:58 pm

I only found it recently...
On the serpent wall, near the Shado-Pan in Kun-Lai (but not exactly there) one of the towers has the PvP vendors.
(Well, that's Horde, anyway, I'd wager that the Alliance are just on the other side of the Shado-Pan garrison and in a similar fashion)

Both the Honor and Conquest qms are just handing gear out, with conquest being the higher ilvl of course.

Taeliana · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:05 pm

Having them nerf hunters *now* and not at the beginning of the expac on live is a good thing. They tend to overreact harder when classes are too strong on live (i.e., survival at the beginning of cata).

Kalliope · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:20 pm

Neilaren wrote:

I only found it recently...
On the serpent wall, near the Shado-Pan in Kun-Lai (but not exactly there) one of the towers has the PvP vendors.
(Well, that's Horde, anyway, I'd wager that the Alliance are just on the other side of the Shado-Pan garrison and in a similar fashion)

Both the Honor and Conquest qms are just handing gear out, with conquest being the higher ilvl of course.

Yep, Alliance has those too.

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:59 pm

Spiritbinder wrote:

And sure, there are other things that are still a little out, like FF/Frenzy like you mentioned, and I certainly hope they find a better balance for that because atm, with a lot of people doing a lot of testing, using FF atm is a DPS lost under just about every circumstance.

Wait what that?!?

Kennyloggins wrote:

After some discussion with a fellow hunter, I have been questioning the worth of Focus Fire. In its current state, it seems that casting Focus Fire could actually result in a net DPS loss, based on information gained using Zeherah's sim and personal observations. I feel like this is a conundrum similar to the original Arcane Shot vs. Cobra Shot problem, except maybe to an even worse degree. Why have Focus Fire in the game if it is not worthwhile to use? The whole Frenzy/Focus Fire mechanic seems to be in a state of flux, with no one really understanding just how it is intended to work. I think providing some clarity on the intended mechanic would be nice, as well as perhaps changing the values around so that it is actually worth the spot on your action bar.

Crithto wrote:

We did notice this and have buffed it a bit, but that change didn’t make the build you’re just now getting. I believe the amount of haste it grants your character went up to 6% and we might need to increase it further. It should be a significant DPS increase, not just break even.

*** EDIT ***

Also...

Quote:

Arcane Shot damage reduced by 50%.

Super fast napkin math go!

Taking Lennykoggins 1st log, from the one's he provided, he did 84535.4 DPS

39.3% of his DPS was from Arcane shot alone, which is 33222.41 DPS

Lets crudely just half that number, now that arcane is getting a 50% nerf, and you get a 16611.2 DPS loss

Take this from the original DPS he did, 84535.4 DPS, and you end up with 67924.2 DPS

Which if you reinsert that back into that particular log, with everyone else, it would place him 5th among all other dps. (This includes 2 rouges, so places the hunter behind 3 other classes, of which we already had a post that other classes will be brought down a little, just saying

)

TLDR:50% nerf to arcane, does not = the sky is not falling so far. (with super crud napkin math

)

Kalliope · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:05 pm

Eeee, Crithto the puppy commented!

Err...

I'll be over here. >_>

(On a more serious note, we got a new build today, so we'll see what changed.

)

Neilaren · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:19 pm

Yeaaah I saw that FF change.

I still feel like my pet is focus starved though, FF procs way less than it does on live. :<

Was that arcane shot nerf the one that just happened in latest build? The tooltip modifier says something like 110% weapon damage + 2500 instead of 110% weapon damage + 5000. It didn't seem like a big loss so I was assuming they weren't done just yet.

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:27 pm

Neilaren wrote:

Yeaaah I saw that FF change.

I still feel like my pet is focus starved though, FF procs way less than it does on live. :<

Was that arcane shot nerf the one that just happened in latest build? The tooltip modifier says something like 110% weapon damage + 2500 instead of 110% weapon damage + 5000. It didn't seem like a big loss so I was assuming they weren't done just yet.

Yeah, it will be in the 15929 build, so not sure if it is live yet, it was only just announced. Though I'm sure they will adjust quite a few other things b4 the beta is out. I think Crithto maybe right to suspect that the increment to the FF they intend to increase it by, may still not be quite enough, but it will still require some testing 1st.

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:45 pm

Seems my crud napkin math is totally fail (though I hated math nearly as much as it hated me) but I'm not that surprised :lol:

The 50% reduction is only just 50% on the arcane damage portion, it still does 110% weapon damage, therefore the nerf is not nearly as bad I "crudely" tried to work out.

Slickrock · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:19 pm

Spiritbinder wrote:

Seems my crud napkin math is totally fail (though I hated math nearly as much as it hated me) but I'm not that surprised :lol:

The 50% reduction is only just 50% on the arcane damage portion, it still does 110% weapon damage, therefore the nerf is not nearly as bad I "crudely" tried to work out.

MMO-Champ is saying a flat 50%, but, that's MMO-Champ. need to see the actual build first...

At least they realize that FF is a mess now, although that change won't be in this build.

Still not sure ToH will be worth it...

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:52 pm

Slickrock wrote:

MMO-Champ is saying a flat 50%, but, that's MMO-Champ. need to see the actual build first.....

** Note ** Only the "plus XXXX damage as Arcane Damage" has been effected, the weapon damage remains untouched at 110%

Slickrock wrote:

Still not sure ToH will be worth it...

I guess that the point of their new talent tree system, making people not sure which one will be worth it regarding a clear winner overall. Hopefully making your choice more situational, specific, or utility based. (whether they will ever achieve this, I'm not sure, but they are getting better at it as the beta goes on.)

Slickrock · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:03 pm

Spiritbinder wrote:

I guess that the point of their new talent tree system, making people not sure which one will be worth it regarding a clear winner overall. Hopefully making your choice more situational, specific, or utility based. (whether they will ever achieve this, I'm not sure, but they are getting better at it as the beta goes on.)
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Yeah, they still would have to do a lot more in my book to make it compelling.. Dire Beast is still a lot more functional and a lot less proccy.

Myzou · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:17 pm

Spiritbinder wrote:

I guess that the point of their new talent tree system, making people not sure which one will be worth it regarding a clear winner overall. Hopefully making your choice more situational, specific, or utility based. (whether they will ever achieve this, I'm not sure, but they are getting better at it as the beta goes on.)
[/color]

Depends on the talents, methinks.

Like, I find Narrow Escape, Exhilaration, and A Murder of Crow (MM/Surv)/Blink Strike (PvP)/Lynx Rush (BM) as necessities. (By the last one, I mean I find them necessity based on those specs.

The others yes, I believe that will be situational or by preference. xD I just see no reason to grab anything other than Narrow Escape and Exhilaration, to be honest.

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:18 pm

Slickrock wrote:

Yeah, they still would have to do a lot more in my book to make it compelling.. Dire Beast is still a lot more functional and a lot less proccy.

That's the beauty of it, everyone has a different book. Some people love the aspect of the "proccy" system, it can help break the monotony of a standard rotation and keep one on their toes. Others like the predictability of an "On use" ability, etc.

As long as these different options/talents don't wildly effect ones potential performance to differently compared to thier counterparts, more choice is a grand thing.

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:29 pm

Myzou wrote:

Depends on the talents, methinks.

Like, I find Narrow Escape, Exhilaration, and A Murder of Crow (MM/Surv)/Blink Strike (PvP)/Lynx Rush (BM) as necessities. (By the last one, I mean I find them necessity based on those specs.

The others yes, I believe that will be situational or by preference. xD I just see no reason to grab anything other than Narrow Escape and Exhilaration, to be honest.

This is true at the moment in some cases or for a general setup. And sadly, as much as they may wish everything to be perfectly balanced in a perfect world.... or warcarft, it is rather... impossible to a certain degree. Especially when you throw PVP into the mix and try and balance it all. That and some talents just lean a little harder towards some specs than others, simply due to the way the spec plays/handles (eg, Blink Strike, BM and PVP)

Also there will always be number crunchers and theory crafters that will somehow work out that X is superior to Z by Y amount in a certain situation. And that's fine with me, as long as on the odd occasion Z becomes more beneficial than X in a different situation. Or if you use X for every situation, if it's something that you love to add to your play style and you can't live without it, it wont be overly detrimental to your performance.

We can see them trying though, and I'll give them props for that... thus far

Neilaren · **Posted:** Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:43 pm

I still don't get Lynx Rush as BM... is this based on single-target? Because I remember early beta, it was just not worth using for AoE since it didn't put its damage on top of Beast Cleave numbers...

I've been using Dire Beast the whole time. Now that it's moved, I've also been using Blink Strike. They need to fix the tooltip or the range (since it'll be in range but then say not in range) but I like it.

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:11 am

I've actually not heard much of Lynx Rush as of late, which is to say, I think it's still on the low end and may still need some balancing to make it a little more competitive. It does have the benefit of a small teleport attached to it if the mod/player is moving fast which adds a little utility to it, that and can be cast at 100yards which is handy, but alas I think that's it. I'm pretty sure it was originally designed to be a Beast orientated AOE cooldown, but I'm not sure how well it actually works with BM regardless of it's output.

(Eg.) if you are using a worm and you use it's AOE ability (burrow), if you multi-shot, will you worm still cleave? if so if you used Lynx Rush, would it work or interrupt the burrow? If beast cleave is active and you use Lynx Rush, with the cleave damage still work? etc.

I like the idea of Lynx Rush being an Beast orientated AOE cooldown, but I'm just not sure it's utility is good enough to compete with the other 2. Whether they need to adjust the cooldown length or up the damage component, I'm not sure, but I'd like to see it become a little more of a competitive choice for AOE centered situations for the BM Spec also.

Ziarre · **Posted:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:20 am

I love proccy things, so I've actually been running TotH in beta. Since BM priority can be a bit simplistic at times, it really helps to shake things up a bit. Haven't been in beta since they retooled it, though...

I hope that Lynx Rush turns out to be competitive with the others...since I want to make tanks boggle at my pet spazzing out. :B

Slickrock · **Posted:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:05 pm

Ziarre wrote:

I love proccy things, so I've actually been running TotH in beta. Since BM priority can be a bit simplistic at times, it really helps to shake things up a bit. Haven't been in beta since they retooled it, though...

Well, as has been reinforced, we do have choices... :shock:

The main problem with proccy things is the fight designs. My guild is still working on H Spine, and you need total control of all your cooldowns, and procs don't help you at all on that fight. If we get other burst fights like that in Panda, Dire Beast will probably be the clear winner (or on any fight were certain things need to die fast).

swimgremlin · **Posted:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Spiritbinder wrote:

I've actually not heard much of Lynx Rush as of late, which is to say, I think it's still on the low end and may still need some balancing to make it a little more competitive. It does have the benefit of a small teleport attached to it if the mod/player is moving fast which adds a little utility to it, that and can be cast at 100yards which is handy, but alas I think that's it. I'm pretty sure it was originally designed to be a Beast orientated AOE cooldown, but I'm not sure how well it actually works with BM regardless of it's output.

(Eg.) if you are using a worm and you use it's AOE ability (burrow), if you multi-shot, will you worm still cleave? if so if you used Lynx Rush, would it work or interrupt the burrow? If beast cleave is active and you use Lynx Rush, with the cleave damage still work? etc.

I like the idea of Lynx Rush being an Beast orientated AOE cooldown, but I'm just not sure it's utility is good enough to compete with the other 2. Whether they need to adjust the cooldown length or up the damage component, I'm not sure, but I'd like to see it become a little more of a competitive choice for AOE centered situations for the BM Spec also.

Good point. I wonde if we'll. E cycling the AoEs on cd. I currently use a worm so I would hope the beast cleave still works while burrowed.

Also, seems to me like blink strike and kill command may alternate priority a bit too.

SpiritBinder · **Posted:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:40 pm

Slickrock wrote:

The main problem with proccy things is the fight designs. My guild is still working on H Spine, and you need total control of all your cooldowns, and procs don't help you at all on that fight. If we get other burst fights like that in Panda, Dire Beast will probably be the clear winner (or on any fight were certain things need to die fast).

I did notice that you where still on spine, and your right about that that particular fight. There is a particular talent types, in which their utility will be preferred due the mechanics that are involved in the fight. They will most likely be controllable/on use ones. I did mention that in an earlier post I think as well.

Spiritbinder wrote:

Also there will always be number crunchers and theory crafters that will somehow work out that X is superior to Z by Y amount in a certain situation. And that's fine with me, as long as on the odd occasion Z becomes more beneficial than X in a different situation.

There is also a blue post in the "Beta Class Balance Analysis" concerning your main problem.

Brennvin wrote:

Heroic Spine is an extremely skewing fight, as it forced you to value 20-second burst damage every 1:30 to 2:00 over just about everything else. It’s no surprise when that does unfortunate things to class/spec balance. We try to balance different specs to do similar sustained damage, but allow them to have different strengths and weaknesses, such as burst potential. One of the class designers (who also happens to be a raid leader in a 25-player raid progression guild) says that if there were a similar encounter in Mists of Pandaria, he would definitely ask his warlocks to switch to Destruction, given that Destruction’s potential 20-second burst is incredibly high. Warlocks would definitely not be sat in that situation.

So yes, "if we get other burst fights like that in Panda, Dire Beast will probably be the clear winner (or on any fight were certain things need to die fast)." But one may even need to change spec per the needs of a HM progression kill for the needs of a particular fights mechanics, that's just the way it is sometimes. (though if it where burst that was needed, BM seems to have even more potential for that come MOP.) They also know how extremely skewing those types of fights are, and to try and balance all choices in all talents for the potential of an extremely skewed fight in the future, is near impossible and a bit moot.

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More hunter nerfs coming... sigh...

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