Yeah that does seem to be a key part of it. Why everything had to be bigger and spikier. He was clearly compensatingXota wrote:I think it made a good argument for Thrall's motivations. However, I do think there's a key aspect of Garrosh's personality that wasn't mentioned. He never got over his inferiority complex. He wasn't just a tiger that was being expected to be a housecat, he was a tiger that was born with a crippled leg that was trying to prove to himself and others that he was the most ferocious tiger. When he talks about things being dishonorable, he's thinking that his authority is being undermined.Wain wrote:While clearly a very strong opinion piece, I thought it was brilliantly written and really enjoyed it. I found myself agreeing with a lot of it. Thanks for linking thatNiabi wrote:Ironically, this article was posted today and relates to the discussion we've been having. It's just one perspective, but I found it to be extremely persuasive and made me reevaluate my position of Thrall's defense:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/09/21/know- ... of-thrall/.
In-Game Cinematics
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
LOL Wain!
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
While I might be drifting a bit far off-topic now, I think the reality is that the plot writers just wanted Garrosh in control so they could create this crisis and so they contrived a reason for it, even if it didn't make much sense to me. I think Thrall, as he was depicted in WotLK, was not so oblivious that he would have put Garrosh in charge over the established Horde leaders. I feel the story creators might have suspended disbelief a little far when they suddenly yanked us down that road in Cata.
What I would have liked to have seen is something like:
- the Cataclysm hits. The world is in chaos. Thrall has no choice but to stop it shattering. He doesn't even have time for politics and leaves the Horde leaders to work together in his absence.
- Garrosh assumes, or bullies, his way into control of the orcs, and hence Orgrimmar, which is the seat of Horde power
- as the expansion progresses, and then into MoP, he further alienates himself from the other leaders by his xenophobia and resentment at having to be tied to their decisions. His actions become increasingly unilateral and aggressive, culminating in him breaking Orgrimmar from the Horde and taking his own path. Thrall is no longer welcome in his own city and is effectively deposed, leading up to SoO.
I'm sure there are a lot of flaws with that, which a story designer would see immediately, but I think something along those lines would have been more interesting. Of course hindsight is easy too
What I would have liked to have seen is something like:
- the Cataclysm hits. The world is in chaos. Thrall has no choice but to stop it shattering. He doesn't even have time for politics and leaves the Horde leaders to work together in his absence.
- Garrosh assumes, or bullies, his way into control of the orcs, and hence Orgrimmar, which is the seat of Horde power
- as the expansion progresses, and then into MoP, he further alienates himself from the other leaders by his xenophobia and resentment at having to be tied to their decisions. His actions become increasingly unilateral and aggressive, culminating in him breaking Orgrimmar from the Horde and taking his own path. Thrall is no longer welcome in his own city and is effectively deposed, leading up to SoO.
I'm sure there are a lot of flaws with that, which a story designer would see immediately, but I think something along those lines would have been more interesting. Of course hindsight is easy too
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
In defense(?) of half-assing writers, there was a time-skip between the end of WotLK and the Shattering of 3 years. Getting off topic even more, that's when gnome priests came into existence under the tutelage of Mimiron, in my head-canon. It's like there was a magic wand waved over the lore that went, "some time passes, characters and plots develop in mysterious and convenient ways, work it out on your own".
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
My friend is reading War Crimes and told me something that made me gasp rather loudly.....
"One of the charges read against Garrosh in his trial is Forced Pregnancy. Apprently he had orc females raped to breed new orcs for his Horde.
Genocide, Murder, Forcible transfer of population, Enforced disappears of indivuals, Enslavement, The abductions of childern, Torture, The killing of prisoners, Force pregnancy and the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages not justified by military or civilian necessity. That's the list of charges read by Taran-Zhu at the trial"
Apparently he also kidnapped mag'har kids and told their parents "Work for me and I'll free your kids." They agreed and he released the kids......in Azshara....where they get killed by the naga.
Yeah...Garrosh is getting zero sympathy from me. There's no way in hell Grom or Thrall would've supported that.
"One of the charges read against Garrosh in his trial is Forced Pregnancy. Apprently he had orc females raped to breed new orcs for his Horde.
Genocide, Murder, Forcible transfer of population, Enforced disappears of indivuals, Enslavement, The abductions of childern, Torture, The killing of prisoners, Force pregnancy and the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages not justified by military or civilian necessity. That's the list of charges read by Taran-Zhu at the trial"
Apparently he also kidnapped mag'har kids and told their parents "Work for me and I'll free your kids." They agreed and he released the kids......in Azshara....where they get killed by the naga.
Yeah...Garrosh is getting zero sympathy from me. There's no way in hell Grom or Thrall would've supported that.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
Uhm... from what I remember the Forced Pregnancy claim was on Alextrazsa by the Dragonmaw clan, on the basis that Garrosh was to be acused of everything commited by him, by his order, in his name even if he didn't order it himself out loud and by parties he decided to ally with (<- this last part exactly, as he took in the Dragonmaw as his allies, knowing their history). This accusation was a bit to far drawn imo, as the event took place looong before Garry even came to Azeroth, but whatever...
Not mag'har, but magnataur, the mammoth-centaur behemoths from Northrend, and the "work" he had them do was the battle with the Allies from the Wolfheart novel, where they all/most of them got killed when the worgen came to the rescue. Still it's pretty sickJunrei wrote:Apparently he also kidnapped mag'har kids and told their parents "Work for me and I'll free your kids." They agreed and he released the kids......in Azshara....where they get killed by the naga.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
Garrosh is Warchief and chose to ally with the Dragonmaw clan. That makes him responsible for their actions, past and present. Also it seems to hint he still encouraged the forced pregnancy even in his Horde.Myrrmi wrote:Uhm... from what I remember the Forced Pregnancy claim was on Alextrazsa by the Dragonmaw clan, on the basis that Garrosh was to be acused of everything commited by him, by his order, in his name even if he didn't order it himself out loud and by parties he decided to ally with (<- this last part exactly, as he took in the Dragonmaw as his allies, knowing their history). This accusation was a bit to far drawn imo, as the event took place looong before Garry even came to Azeroth, but whatever...
Not mag'har, but magnataur, the mammoth-centaur behemoths from Northrend, and the "work" he had them do was the battle with the Allies from the Wolfheart novel, where they all/most of them got killed when the worgen came to the rescue. Still it's pretty sickJunrei wrote:Apparently he also kidnapped mag'har kids and told their parents "Work for me and I'll free your kids." They agreed and he released the kids......in Azshara....where they get killed by the naga.
Either way...Garrosh deserves zero sympathy, imho.
Re: In-Game Cinematics
A person is not responsible for the past actions of allies, from before they even met, and were under different leadership. Of all the horrible things Garrosh is responsible for, turning Alexstrazsa into livestock isn't one of them.Junrei wrote:Garrosh is Warchief and chose to ally with the Dragonmaw clan. That makes him responsible for their actions, past and present. Also it seems to hint he still encouraged the forced pregnancy even in his Horde.Myrrmi wrote:Uhm... from what I remember the Forced Pregnancy claim was on Alextrazsa by the Dragonmaw clan, on the basis that Garrosh was to be acused of everything commited by him, by his order, in his name even if he didn't order it himself out loud and by parties he decided to ally with (<- this last part exactly, as he took in the Dragonmaw as his allies, knowing their history). This accusation was a bit to far drawn imo, as the event took place looong before Garry even came to Azeroth, but whatever...
Not mag'har, but magnataur, the mammoth-centaur behemoths from Northrend, and the "work" he had them do was the battle with the Allies from the Wolfheart novel, where they all/most of them got killed when the worgen came to the rescue. Still it's pretty sickJunrei wrote:Apparently he also kidnapped mag'har kids and told their parents "Work for me and I'll free your kids." They agreed and he released the kids......in Azshara....where they get killed by the naga.
Either way...Garrosh deserves zero sympathy, imho.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
I know, I thought it was a little overboard but it seems if you take Warchief and take someone under your wing that screwed up royally, you're responsible for them.
Re: In-Game Cinematics
And yet people say Thrall is innocent and Garrosh chose his own path.Junrei wrote:I know, I thought it was a little overboard but it seems if you take Warchief and take someone under your wing that screwed up royally, you're responsible for them.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
That forced pregnancy thing was in another book that I've read, back when I cared only for the dragon side of lore. Much variety that was how Alexstrasza lost consorts. They were all too weak and when Deathwing attacked of course the males weren't going to last very long. Or male. Only one survived to take on Deathwing.Junrei wrote:My friend is reading War Crimes and told me something that made me gasp rather loudly.....
"One of the charges read against Garrosh in his trial is Forced Pregnancy. Apprently he had orc females raped to breed new orcs for his Horde.
Genocide, Murder, Forcible transfer of population, Enforced disappears of indivuals, Enslavement, The abductions of childern, Torture, The killing of prisoners, Force pregnancy and the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages not justified by military or civilian necessity. That's the list of charges read by Taran-Zhu at the trial"
Apparently he also kidnapped mag'har kids and told their parents "Work for me and I'll free your kids." They agreed and he released the kids......in Azshara....where they get killed by the naga.
Yeah...Garrosh is getting zero sympathy from me. There's no way in hell Grom or Thrall would've supported that.
I wouldn't put it past Garrosh to have Orc females forced into pregnancy to gain more warriors however. I mean, it's not a far stretch from forcing dragons to make lots of dragon babies. Honesty, I hated Garrosh from the start. He looks like a pig. And a bear. And a man. And not the nicer qualities of any of the aforementioned beings.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
Oh so that hoo har over forced pregnancy when that book came out was that dragon thing?
That's why Tumblr was up in arms? That is so dumb I feel bad for who ever wrote that in that book.
That's why Tumblr was up in arms? That is so dumb I feel bad for who ever wrote that in that book.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
I don't think Thrall was in charge of those charges. It never says who decided them.Azunara wrote:And yet people say Thrall is innocent and Garrosh chose his own path.Junrei wrote:I know, I thought it was a little overboard but it seems if you take Warchief and take someone under your wing that screwed up royally, you're responsible for them.
Thrall made his errors but Garrosh did choose his own path too. Neither are innocent...only one decided to correct it.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
In regards to the forced pregnancy thing I wouldn't be surprised if he did that with his own orcs. After all he was after the "true horde" master race of Orcs. He was all kinds of screwed up mentally so I wouldn't put it past him. He seems the type of character not to care about a "weak" woman and use them for his own ends. I haven't read War Crimes but this thread make me want to
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
It's not very good. Then again most WoW books are kinda meh at best to me. I could only get through it by reading a liveblog of it as it was making fun of it XD
Now that I know the whole "forced pregnancy" thing was a bit of lore that really had nothing to do with Garrosh I find it even worse of a book
One thing it did do was cement my hatred for Tyrande. There is zero good about her. If I was the leader of the Alliance I'd watch out for her. She could do some horrible shit.
Now that I know the whole "forced pregnancy" thing was a bit of lore that really had nothing to do with Garrosh I find it even worse of a book
One thing it did do was cement my hatred for Tyrande. There is zero good about her. If I was the leader of the Alliance I'd watch out for her. She could do some horrible shit.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
Thats interesting - I've liked most of them as harmless wow fluff. They aren't always well written but i'd place them into the Dan Brown adventure story fluff catergorey as far as books go.cowmuflage wrote:It's not very good. Then again most WoW books are kinda meh at best to me. I could only get through it by reading a liveblog of it as it was making fun of it XD
Now that I know the whole "forced pregnancy" thing was a bit of lore that really had nothing to do with Garrosh I find it even worse of a book
One thing it did do was cement my hatred for Tyrande. There is zero good about her. If I was the leader of the Alliance I'd watch out for her. She could do some horrible shit.
I think Tyrande is just a product of her environment. Her BF pissed off and left her to emerald dream it up and she was kinda left to try and defend her ppl from orcs cutting her trees down and then murdering her people when Garrosh rocked up. He walks back into her life after she's kinda had to deal with alot of shit on her own so she's abit more hardened then what she was. The only leader I really hate is Sylvannas. Again shes a product of her circumstance but chemical warfare crosses a line for me
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
I don't like her blatant racism towards all Horde races. If there was one Alliance leader who would think racial genocide is A ok it's her. That book cemented that because all she does in it is be a racist bitch. Sylvanna and her are really the same in that book
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
The big pet peeve with the book is that it constantly uses the assumption that because Garrosh is allied with someone, he therefore knows everything that they’re doing and approves of it. By that logic we could put all humans on trial because of the Southern Barrens quest chain or put Jaina on trail because she was mates with the Lich King.
But we would not because it would be dumb.
But we would not because it would be dumb.
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My view of the books is thus: they take place in an alternate universe that's mostly similar to the one the game aproximates, but with a lot or silly stuff that you can ignore in favor of your head-canon. If there's important plot points that blizzard wants us to know, they should hire someone to make a machinima about it.
If there were one alliance leader that would think genocide was a-ok, it was Staghelm. He didn't even like Tauren. Jaina has gotten pretty close too, questing through the purge of Dalaran was really unsettling. Tyrande is probably just given the idiot-ball by bad writers (I've only read the Vol'jin book). I know she was written poorly in the "a little patience" scenario, just so Varian could have a foil. At the end of SoO, she wants a detente with the Horde, giving up all claims to Azshara in exchange for Ashenvale.
If there were one alliance leader that would think genocide was a-ok, it was Staghelm. He didn't even like Tauren. Jaina has gotten pretty close too, questing through the purge of Dalaran was really unsettling. Tyrande is probably just given the idiot-ball by bad writers (I've only read the Vol'jin book). I know she was written poorly in the "a little patience" scenario, just so Varian could have a foil. At the end of SoO, she wants a detente with the Horde, giving up all claims to Azshara in exchange for Ashenvale.
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Re: In-Game Cinematics
I'll be honest, that's how I've started treating a lot of lore that comes completely out of left field or that's been massively retconned. I more or less ignore the new Worgen lore, the retconned Stonetalon stuff, etc because it makes absolutely no sense. The books I also pick and choose lore from because it's just unfair to the characters to take all the books as 100% canon. Some of them are so badly written that the characters are just sad ghosts of what they've been established as before. (JAINA)Xota wrote:My view of the books is thus: they take place in an alternate universe that's mostly similar to the one the game aproximates, but with a lot or silly stuff that you can ignore in favor of your head-canon. If there's important plot points that blizzard wants us to know, they should hire someone to make a machinima about it.
It makes lore discussion kind of hard, though. Technically all the books and retcons are canon because Blizzard has decreed it so, but that also makes lore very hard- and sometimes completely impossible- to follow. Some things are literally impossible as lore is right now, so how do you discuss it? How can you talk about a character's decisions when some of their decisions were clearly forced in to make the plot work, despite it not being in character at all?
(On the genocide thing, Tyrande is a little scary. Though I'm getting pretty wary around Varian ever since the Lords of War episode where... Okay, so Maraad has just told him about warlords that fought impossible odds to save their people from the ogres, who have enslaved, tortured, and killed them in droves. He's even told Varian about the one that was a pit fighter. Ring any bells, Varian? Noooo, apparently not, because "So they're all monsters" is a thing he actually says. He apparently has no ability to see the warlords as anything but mindless killing machines despite having these heartstring pulling stories told to him.)
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