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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Slickrock wrote:
One thing to think about here is the impact of the squish on soloing content. You won't necessarily be as OP anymore against old raid bosses and such. Perhaps it will even out, but I would expect that soloing is going to get more challenging.

Squish isn't going to affect our power, it's just reducing all the numbers across the board. It's just a display issue, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:14 pm 
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GormanGhaste wrote:
Slickrock wrote:
One thing to think about here is the impact of the squish on soloing content. You won't necessarily be as OP anymore against old raid bosses and such. Perhaps it will even out, but I would expect that soloing is going to get more challenging.

Squish isn't going to affect our power, it's just reducing all the numbers across the board. It's just a display issue, really.

There's a topic explaining all that too that I made. :3

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Quivering wrote:
Good point, the AoE spray is smaller than Multi-shot but its only smaller by 3 yards. Multi is 8 yards in the spread, verses Bola's 5. I can't imagine a practical situation where we can eyeball "this group is 6-8 yards apart so I need to multi shot" and "this group is 5 or less yards, so I need to Bola." Seems to overlap in that regard. 3 yards doesn't seem to be enough of a difference to justify another niche spell. Maybe it'll change though! Maybe they will tweak the yards affected, which would change the niche greatly.


That might be true but Bola Shot does replace Arcane Shot, so I guess we can use both if we have enough Focus regardless of spec, though I think BM and SV don't need to spam Multi Shot a lot to let time for Beast Cleave and the Serpent Sting spread ( I forgot its name) to work, but I might be wrong about that, haven't raided in almost 7 months.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:22 am 
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GormanGhaste wrote:
Slickrock wrote:
One thing to think about here is the impact of the squish on soloing content. You won't necessarily be as OP anymore against old raid bosses and such. Perhaps it will even out, but I would expect that soloing is going to get more challenging.

Squish isn't going to affect our power, it's just reducing all the numbers across the board. It's just a display issue, really.


They made a point today that soloing would not be effected. So this seems to be taken care of. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:22 am 
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I would take WOWY for both my BM and SV specs. I only use SV for fights where the target can not be reached by my pet so it would fit perfectly. I like Arcane Shot and Snipe has too long of a cast time. The 70% pet damage increase is really only a little bit more than what we have without the talent so it's really not OP compared to what the other 2 specs get. In fact it may not even equal their damage increase. I also have never found my pet's actions to be overly "wonky" though. 99% of the time it seems just fine.

I do agree that giving BM the ability to fight petless would make no sense at all. It would completely negate what is the heart of the spec, being able to train wild beasts to do nearly as much damage as before they were tamed. Unlike the other specs where the pet is just a shadow of it's former self. That is what the Mastery in the spec's name really means. The Beast Within does not define BM. It is merely a side effect of the power generated by the pet.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:37 pm 
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I do wonder what the rotation would be with Snipe and Aimed shot.. Might be interesting, if you never have to move.. but with the cast times of each, gonna be hard to imagine that working in most situations. With the squish, I assume haste will get pulled down again, so it's not like we are going to have severely reduced cast times.

WoWY is of course going to be the BM choice, but the real benefit of it will be in soloing. You won't use a lot of those other abilities in a raid, at least not often.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:05 am 
Slickrock wrote:
I do wonder what the rotation would be with Snipe and Aimed shot.. Might be interesting, if you never have to move.. but with the cast times of each, gonna be hard to imagine that working in most situations. With the squish, I assume haste will get pulled down again, so it's not like we are going to have severely reduced cast times.

WoWY is of course going to be the BM choice, but the real benefit of it will be in soloing. You won't use a lot of those other abilities in a raid, at least not often.


Snipe is nothing new, its what steady shot and cobra shot was before aspect of the fox/ aspect dancing. They will also adjust the focus regen, MM will need 2 snipes in row for ISS = 120 focus. There not done tweaking that. Might be a starting point cause BM has 120 focus.

WoWY...I HATE..there should never be a petless option for the hunter class. If you don't want to play a pet class roll something else.

For all those that want a archer type class, blizz needs to make a new class to fit this roll, not change a core characteristic of a class. If this talent is optimal for DPS for MM and Surv will be having hunters raiding without pets...and that just isn't wow.


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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Banard wrote:
Slickrock wrote:
I do wonder what the rotation would be with Snipe and Aimed shot.. Might be interesting, if you never have to move.. but with the cast times of each, gonna be hard to imagine that working in most situations. With the squish, I assume haste will get pulled down again, so it's not like we are going to have severely reduced cast times.

WoWY is of course going to be the BM choice, but the real benefit of it will be in soloing. You won't use a lot of those other abilities in a raid, at least not often.


Snipe is nothing new, its what steady shot and cobra shot was before aspect of the fox/ aspect dancing. They will also adjust the focus regen, MM will need 2 snipes in row for ISS = 120 focus. There not done tweaking that. Might be a starting point cause BM has 120 focus.

WoWY...I HATE..there should never be a petless option for the hunter class. If you don't want to play a pet class roll something else.

For all those that want a archer type class, blizz needs to make a new class to fit this roll, not change a core characteristic of a class. If this talent is optimal for DPS for MM and Surv will be having hunters raiding without pets...and that just isn't wow.

You do realize...an archer class IS the hunter, correct? It'd be silly to make it separate. Even in D&D, Archers can use pets and are sometimes referred to as hunters, but it's optional. So why not honor the roots of mmorpgs and what the archer stands for? Even in Hearthstone, you're not required to have a pet to play your hunter deck. Your main ability is an archery attack. Having a pet is NOT core for the hunter. That's Core for BM, which is one spec out of the entire class.

So I'm sorry but I fully disagree with hatred over a talent that people have been desiring for eons and isn't taking away from the class. This is my stance on it and I will happily make my MM spec be petless so that my BM can feel more unique.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:50 pm 
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I have always played BM, and always will. I like both aspects of the W/WO Y talent. If MM/SV hunters don't want to manage a pet, I'd rather they didn't. Maybe there will be less hunter pets with Growl on during boss fights :) MM/SV hunters who love pets can pick one of the other talents. Choices are good.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:03 pm 
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GormanGhaste wrote:
I have always played BM, and always will. I like both aspects of the W/WO Y talent. If MM/SV hunters don't want to manage a pet, I'd rather they didn't. Maybe there will be less hunter pets with Growl on during boss fights :) MM/SV hunters who love pets can pick one of the other talents. Choices are good.

Definitely agreed. Choices are always good. :3

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:28 am 
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GormanGhaste wrote:
I have always played BM, and always will. I like both aspects of the W/WO Y talent. If MM/SV hunters don't want to manage a pet, I'd rather they didn't. Maybe there will be less hunter pets with Growl on during boss fights :) MM/SV hunters who love pets can pick one of the other talents. Choices are good.

At first I hated the very idea of this talent but now, I agree, choices are good in this instance. Like I said it will be good for my SV spec in those fights where the pet can't do anything because the target is in the air or something like that and the extra boost in pet damage will benefit my primary spec which is and always will be BM. I certainly wouldn't want to solo anything or quest as SV without a pet though so it's good that it's a max level talent choice. I'm not good without my pet in those situations.

Of course it's pretty much a given that these talents will be modified or even dumped before WoD goes live. Things like that always happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:45 am 
Look it all comes down to this...

A lot pf people selected a Hunter b/c it is a pet class. This whole community was built because it is a pet class.

For those playing the game casual this talent is truly optional, i understand why those people have no problems with it.

But what about folks that selected the hunter class b/c its a pet class that what to be the best they can be? No matter what setting, if its 5 mans, scenarios, LFR, Flex, Normal or Heoric that player just wants to be the best they can be?

At some point, with this talent in the game, to max dps it will be MMM/SURV with this talent. The time will come. Like everything in wow talents and specs have there time. These days its usually boss by boss.

So then, to be the best i can be..i have to be a pet-less class? That's not what i picked in 2007.

I see and understand the reason people want a archer type class with no pet...but changing the core characteristic of a class is not the answer.


Side note so i can get my Geek on:
To Junrei since the first edition of D&D rangers got animal companions as "followers" in 1st and 2nd. In 3/3.5 they got animal companion as a class feature; only years later did the introduce alternative such as the "urtban ranger" with no pet option.

Only in 4th did the pet come in later books...but 4th is ..well ask wizards how 4th did.

If ya wanted to be a pure archer the best route was always the Fighter.


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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:32 pm 
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4th Edition did fine. I know plenty of D&Ders that play it and love it. I also play it personally and play Pathfinder. Archers didn't have to have pets but they could choose to.

Don't deny people their right to choose. That talent isn't the end all/be all.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Regarding the pets or no pets... let's look at one boss fight. Immersius.

Last night in raid my pet despawned at least 3 times during the fight, because of the distance between the boss where the pet was attacking, and where I was running from the water jet. There's also lost dps time due to all that running.

So for a fight like that, a MM spec without a pet would be ideal.

Gotta remember that this is a choice, and the talents are now such that we can swap for each fight if needed.

The better question here should be, are those other two talents worthwhile if you don't want to take WoWY?

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:12 am 
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Slickrock wrote:
Regarding the pets or no pets... let's look at one boss fight. Immersius.

Last night in raid my pet despawned at least 3 times during the fight, because of the distance between the boss where the pet was attacking, and where I was running from the water jet. There's also lost dps time due to all that running.

So for a fight like that, a MM spec without a pet would be ideal.

Gotta remember that this is a choice, and the talents are now such that we can swap for each fight if needed.

The better question here should be, are those other two talents worthwhile if you don't want to take WoWY?
I had no issues with Immersius. His hit box is huge and my pet is usually very close to me in that fight. The fight that caused problems for me is the Iron Juggernaut. I frequently got knocked back so far that I lost contact with my pet and had to resummon him.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:52 am 
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I had pet despawning issues due to knockbacks on both Immersius (LFR/flex, ignoring the wave) and Iron Juggernaut. I also had to keep my pet on passive and direct him manually on Megara, or he would auto-agro onto one of the far heads/the supposed main body of Meg/some shiny in Meg's pond or whatever, and despawn due to distance. I don't know how pets work on the birdmom from ToT, as I've never been in an egg group, but this seems like another problematic situation to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:19 am 
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I'm fine with the no-pet option and will probably end up using it- and this is coming from a BM fanatic who only played wow for the hunter pets. Just keep in mind that the way talent trees are now, everything is meant to be super flexible. You don't have to pay through the nose to reset your talents all the time now so you can tweak your build whenever you feel like it.
During my time in MoP I kept a stack of cheap regents with me so I could reset my talents and glyphs on the fly. I had at least 3 different combos I would use, often switching between them six times a day. I would tweak everything for soloing, questing, pvp and raiding. chances are whether you use this new talent as your main choice or a side choice, you will find yourself switching it on and off as you go. Not every encounter will force you to use it or not use it and its great for the players who like that play style.
I would have loved to have this for certain boss fights where my pet was out of range or would mess up raid mechanics. I think its a choice that caters to those annoying situations where your pet just ends up getting stuck in mid air half way through a dps race with a boss. definitely going to keep my pet y my side but I see the positive implications for this. Wish I had had it for alysrazor.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:24 am 
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I think if they keep this talent, the 30% extra damage will be reduced and be closer to the 11 or 12% a MM or SV pet does. People are saying it will be a 5-7% increase for BM so 15-20% bonus damage for SV and MM would probably be better. So many other talents will have to be redone to make this work though.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:42 am 
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Assuming the abilities themselves don't change (I fully expect numbers to get tweaked) I won't be taking WOWY as survival unless there's specific fights where having a pet is causing problems. A good example of a fight where I could do without a pet for sure would be Siegemaster where the pet doesn't want to come up to the conveyor belt (if it simply despawned I could resummon, but instead it's just standing there staring at me!) Personally I like having a pet out, even if I'm screaming at it half the time, "NO THE OTHER TARGET!" and I think it's part of a hunter's job to know how to manage their pets. A well managed pet can even save your raid group from trash wipes all the way to first time boss kills. That said, if part of managing your pet means deciding if you want to use it or not, I'm all for it. I like choices and this would definitely be an interesting choice for many hunters to consider.

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Last edited by peanutbuttercup on Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 100 talent??
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:00 am 
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yeah I'm pretty sure the numbers will get tweaked quite a bit too. probably all through the expansion. Game isint even in Alpha yet.

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