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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:37 pm 
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Well this just sucks.. If they go through with this, I'm not sure I would even bother with the expansion till the first major patch.. Trying to get around places with a ground mount, is super annoying. During lvling I can understand, but to force you to stay grounded till the first Major patch is simply stupid.

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here's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.


http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/356 ... -Beta-Keys

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:42 pm 
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I think it's perfectly reasonable, I've never had a problem with waiting to fly until after content has been completed. I agree with them that it makes the world much more immersive, plus we're already accustomed to it from daily quest hubs where flying isn't an option anyways. Gaining it with the first patch seems fine to me.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Vephriel wrote:
I think it's perfectly reasonable, I've never had a problem with waiting to fly until after content has been completed. I agree with them that it makes the world much more immersive, plus we're already accustomed to it from daily quest hubs where flying isn't an option anyways. Gaining it with the first patch seems fine to me.

Agreed. I dont mind waiting either. I want to explore! :3

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Vephriel wrote:
I think it's perfectly reasonable, I've never had a problem with waiting to fly until after content has been completed. I agree with them that it makes the world much more immersive, plus we're already accustomed to it from daily quest hubs where flying isn't an option anyways. Gaining it with the first patch seems fine to me.



Well said Veph and I Couldn't agree more. I'm not surprised or upset in the least by this news. :)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:47 pm 
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obviously I kind of go "ugh" every time I'm forced to stay on the ground but I completely understand why they are doing it. It is a little annoying that you will have to wait for the next patch to fly but back in my BC days I had to wait months while I saved up my gold and I did just fine so I think I can endure it.

Besides, I actually kind of like that big-unexplored-world feeling you get when you first see a new zone. that goes away once you get flying and all the zones start to feel small.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Well you guys can go nuts with your ground mounts. I find them annoying to use and get around. The timeless isle isn't quite as painful, but to make it world wide ? That's a game breaker for me. I would buy the expansion and let my toons build up rest exp, then unsub till 6.1. Unless they provide a good motivation to use a ground mount, then I refuse.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Vephriel wrote:
I think it's perfectly reasonable, I've never had a problem with waiting to fly until after content has been completed. I agree with them that it makes the world much more immersive, plus we're already accustomed to it from daily quest hubs where flying isn't an option anyways. Gaining it with the first patch seems fine to me.


This for me too! Well said!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:52 pm 
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I just don't see why it's a big deal when we're getting them in the first patch. We'll have plenty to keep us busy while we level and play with Garrisons and probably make tons of alts with the new character models. We'll have that patch before we know it, and it's not like they're saying flying isn't happening at all.

To each their own though!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:07 pm 
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AdamSavage wrote:
Well you guys can go nuts with your ground mounts. I find them annoying to use and get around. The timeless isle isn't quite as painful, but to make it world wide ? That's a game breaker for me. I would buy the expansion and let my toons build up rest exp, then unsub till 6.1. Unless they provide a good motivation to use a ground mount, then I refuse.


Game breaking? Hardly. There was a time when you couldn't fly AT ALL. I see it as a privilege to be able to fly not a right and having to wait isn't that bad. Good motivation to use your ground mount...how about its nice to have a reason to use them! All those poor ponies collecting dust, I'm looking forward to giving my drakes a rest and busting out ol raven lord or deathcharger. And exploring the world as it was intended with that hint of challenge getting to somewhere special instead of just flying there, thats motivation enough for me. To each his own though.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:10 pm 
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I lived fine before I could even get a slow ground mount for Cow's first 40 levels :lol: 10 levels will be cake!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Also I found this on Mmo Champ forums.

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This wont drive people to "combat," it'll drive them to just 1) run through groups of mobs hoping they don't get dazed off 2) Take unnecessarily circuitous routes 3) AVOID areas with mobs and therefore not explore said places or 4) AFK while on flight paths.

So immersive, right?


He has some valid points.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:53 pm 
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It might. Don't assume it will make people do any of those things. Some maybe but not all.

I think it's silly to say "blizz will bleed subs" over this.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Not really. I afk on flight paths even when I can fly. I also afk when I'm flying on my own. So strike that out.

People, again, run through mobs anyway whether they can fly or not. Strike that out.

Unnecessary routes? They do that even with flying. I do it all the time, usually on accident or I only knew my pathing and I didn't know of a shorter route. Strike that out.

Avoid? Unlikely. Places with lots of mobs are usually places you're being sent to quest, which was proven alone with mists....as well as previous expansions. Even Vanilla WoW. So strike that out.

Sorry but that has no valid points to me and personally that tweet was overreacting. "Bleeding subs"? Really? No offense but that's being a bit overdramatic for my tastes. People won't unsub just because they can't fly for one measly patch. If they do, don't let the door hit them on the way out. Sub numbers aren't everything. They don't determine the quality of a game.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:22 am 
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cowmuflage wrote:
It might. Don't assume it will make people do any of those things. Some maybe but not all.

I think it's silly to say "blizz will bleed subs" over this.


I don't think it is. They will loose subs. How much is not known yet. Will the new subs make up for the lose in sub base ? Who knows. This is plain and simple a slow down tactic. It's to force us to slow down and extend the expansion as long as they can. Go read the forum replies to the blue post about this. It's almost a 50/50 split in some cases on this. Some hate it, and some like it. I personally don't like it, but to make a call now is foolish. I want to see how easy/hard it will be to get around first, and go from there.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:44 am 
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I, personally, don't care either way :lol: but I think to argue over this is a little silly. I started playing WoW just a few months after it's release and my oh my...I WALKED EVERYWHERE and I was SO HAPPY when I got my first SLOW mount :lol: I was worse at making treasure than I am now so I didn't get my fast mount until Outland and I didn't get flying until Northrend but it was all good :lol:

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:52 am 
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I think Cata is what got people spoiled with Flying mounts. There was nothing stopping you from going into a zone that was anywhere from 4-24 lvls higher then you. The start of the expansion is already slow as it is.. why make it more annoying by grounding us ? You have to get gear, rep.. max out your professions. Then go work on getting an alt to max lvl as well.. I just don't get the stall tacit they are using.

They should just introduce Aerial Combat.. How epic would it be to fly around on your mount and fighting mobs in the air. Going into combat could put a debuff on you, that slows you down so you can't just fly away. Heck, why not flying mount battle grounds battles ?

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Last edited by AdamSavage on Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:54 am 
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I also see nothing wrong with this. I enjoy using the ground mounts I worked so hard to get or even paid money for. I really only fly when I want to avoid things and/or the flight paths are too roundabout. I definitely do not find using ground mounts annoying. If there is only a short way to go, I stay on the ground and if I need to go a long way I use the flight points if I can. In the cities I always stay on the ground. I also tend to get lost and go the wrong way far more often if I'm flying which is another reason why I use the flight points and stay on the ground in cities. When flying, I always have to keep checking the world map to make sure I'm going the right way. That's more annoying than any ground mount could ever be.

I'm not in favor like some are of removing flying mounts completely but if they ever did, even that would not be a game breaker for me. I've played other games like LOTRO where there is no flying but there are things equivalent to the flight paths and I'm satisfied with that.

I also have never found the start of an expansion to be annoying or boring. To the contrary, the questing and exploration has always been my favorite part of the game. The end game stuff is just filler to me until the next expansion comes and I get to do more of what I enjoy the most.

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Last edited by Danielfboone on Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:00 am 
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AdamSavage wrote:
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This wont drive people to "combat," it'll drive them to just 1) run through groups of mobs hoping they don't get dazed off 2) Take unnecessarily circuitous routes 3) AVOID areas with mobs and therefore not explore said places or 4) AFK while on flight paths.

So immersive, right?


He has some valid points.


Not really.

1.) You are most likely questing in those zones and the first patch of the expansion is usually the busiest so lots of players will be around killing mobs etc. Theres roads for a reason too which is why if you wanted to go relatively safely through zones in vanilla, you stuck to the road.
2.) Again if you're that concerned about being dazed, take the road. If not, explore and kill kill kill!! It's called warcraft for a reason.
3.) I think you're more likely to go there imo as you want to see what shinies those mobs drop/explore if theres a quest or hidden treasure there.
4.) I do that now and I can fly *shrug* what does it matter if you go pee or get a coffee on a long flight path?

I wouldn't say the entire player base uses the forums or twitter either. The 50/50 split is probably more uneven than that. If people quit over it I think it will be a very small number that will be made up for by the number of players that will return to ding a fresh 90 and try the expansion out - flying of not.

I'll concure with Cow too about the days when you waited till 40 for a slow mount. I played then and we did just fine. I enjoyed "wall hacking" cliffs to get to hidden caves and odd places, flying kinda kill that for me so i can see the reason behind returning abit of that to the game, even if its just for a short time.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:12 am 
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If the opinions in forums or on Twitter are split 50/50 you can be sure that the real percentages are massively on the side of the non complainers. Even if the complainers are 90% of the posting they would still be in the minority of the entire player base. That's just a basic fact in all internet forums. People who are satisfied don't post.

The initial leveling part of any expansion always goes by way too fast for me. I would like to see it take at least a month for even the fastest players to reach the max level again.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:19 am 
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I did not see many people complain about what they did in MOP. I could be wrong tho.

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