Exotics – Have they lost their Relevance ?

[Equeon]

Spiritbinder, you bring up some great points.
My personal theory for the reason so little consistency is applied to exotics is because Blizzard wants to make all hunters happy.

Imagine if so many of those creatures were only tamable by BM - challenge tames with the molten spiders, arcane serpents, undead eagles, gem cats, etc.
Every non-beastmaster would complain that they can't even use any of the new pets. This would be an even bigger problem during the periods of time where BM was particularly unviable in raiding or PvP.

So Blizzard basically throws a few bones to the hunter playerbase in general, but in the process destroys a lot of the internal logic of the exotic classification.
Again, while I do prefer the exotics stay exotic, here are some of my gripes with the system.

(Keep in mind all this would take place in a hypothetical world where no hunter would feel negatively affected by these changes.)

* Silithids, Water Striders, and Worms.

These being exotic makes sense to me. It probably takes a lot more effort and skill as a hunter to befriend what is traditionally seen as a mindless invertebrate.
Perhaps the taming process of beastmasters "awakens" some form of latent intelligence within them, expanding their minds, or being a beastmaster means you know just the right way to communicate with these strange bugs.

But then... why the heck are beetles, moths, and wasps not exotic? Just because they are perceived as more mundane? And the new ravagers are really just fancier looking silithid drones. Either all non-arachnid invertebrates are exotic, or none of them are.

* Shale Spiders.
This family really needs to be expanded to "Shale Beasts", adding Gyreworms to the family.

* Elemental Beasts.
I personally think the gem-cats and fire spiders should get their own exotic family to keep things consistent, plus the addition of Hellhounds.

* Clefthooves
Why in the world are these exotic? They should be tamable by every hunter.

* Rylaks
No... just no. These need to be merged with Chimeras.

* Mana Cats
In their current incarnation, it seems so pointless for them to get their own exotic family. In my hypothetical world, these would be properly merged with Arcane Serpents and Arcane Worms to make an "Arcane Beast" family.

None of those changes will ever happen, but if I were designing the system from scratch, that's how it would go.

[Kayb]

My personal thought is that yes, exotics are redundant. There is enough difference between specs now that they don't to be separated now.

[zedxrgal]

I like it when an exotic family feels exotic to me. I know thats completely subjective of course, but beasts like coursers or rocs, or even pterrorwings would feel exotic. I even thought direhorns felt exotic.* The mana sabers don't personally strike me with that exotic pizzazz. Adding swirlies to a cat model just doesn't ring my bell. That being said, I'm stoked we get them especially since some dig them so much.

*This is all to say I have wanted them to change the beast master exotic dynamic for years. Instead of locking out entire families to hunters, I've wanted beast masters to actually be master of all beasts, unlocking special things in each family that other hunters (who arent masters of beasts) cannot since their mastery lies elsewhere (a marksman would be better with a bow than a beast master for example). Thats the flavor I've always wanted. I know its not feasible, and honestly neither here nor there for this discussion. Just throwing it out there to confirm I'm not advocating taking direhorns away from anyone

All the support for this.

But I also agree with Junrei in that I wouldn't be pleased with exotics going away completely.

Yes the lines between exotic and non (as so many have stated) are super blurred. As SB said it makes so little sense the way Blizzard has arranged things.

That's why what Quiv said, if doable, could really change all that. I'm sure that some would that it's unfair that BM is being treated as special snowflakes to have beasts ONLY for them but even now without something like this in place people over it. There will always be QQ-ing between classes and their abilities.

I feel (also said by several others) that there desperately needs to be a merging of some families.
Clefthooves and rhinos
Chimeras and Rylaks

I would really love to see a mass family merge.

[13thmaiden]

I like all these ideas, because as a BM, I feel like we are the least developed of the other two. Doing some of these ideas might make us less....flat I suppose is the best word I got.

[Lisaara]

Spiritbinder, you bring up some great points.
My personal theory for the reason so little consistency is applied to exotics is because Blizzard wants to make all hunters happy.

Imagine if so many of those creatures were only tamable by BM - challenge tames with the molten spiders, arcane serpents, undead eagles, gem cats, etc.
Every non-beastmaster would complain that they can't even use any of the new pets. This would be an even bigger problem during the periods of time where BM was particularly unviable in raiding or PvP.

So Blizzard basically throws a few bones to the hunter playerbase in general, but in the process destroys a lot of the internal logic of the exotic classification.
Again, while I do prefer the exotics stay exotic, here are some of my gripes with the system.

(Keep in mind all this would take place in a hypothetical world where no hunter would feel negatively affected by these changes.)

* Silithids, Water Striders, and Worms.

These being exotic makes sense to me. It probably takes a lot more effort and skill as a hunter to befriend what is traditionally seen as a mindless invertebrate.
Perhaps the taming process of beastmasters "awakens" some form of latent intelligence within them, expanding their minds, or being a beastmaster means you know just the right way to communicate with these strange bugs.

But then... why the heck are beetles, moths, and wasps not exotic? Just because they are perceived as more mundane? And the new ravagers are really just fancier looking silithid drones. Either all non-arachnid invertebrates are exotic, or none of them are.

* Shale Spiders.
This family really needs to be expanded to "Shale Beasts", adding Gyreworms to the family.

* Elemental Beasts.
I personally think the gem-cats and fire spiders should get their own exotic family to keep things consistent, plus the addition of Hellhounds.

* Clefthooves
Why in the world are these exotic? They should be tamable by every hunter.

* Rylaks
No... just no. These need to be merged with Chimeras.

* Mana Cats
In their current incarnation, it seems so pointless for them to get their own exotic family. In my hypothetical world, these would be properly merged with Arcane Serpents and Arcane Worms to make an "Arcane Beast" family.

None of those changes will ever happen, but if I were designing the system from scratch, that's how it would go.

You and SB definitely bring up some points and I agree the lines have blurred a lot, which saddens me cause I feel an exotic pet should look spiffy and look like something a normal hunter wouldn't be able to tame because they lack the skill. Rylaks and Chimeras never really struck me at such, yet Mana Cats, Spirit Beasts, and so on do. Blizz would have to do some major switching around, I think, to really fix it. It won't be an easy fix.

[SpiritBinder]

Also, Don't get me wrong, I really liked the idea of BM having an ability to tame beasts that are otherwise too unruly or wild to master. It really plays nicely into being "I'm a a Master of Beasts". And I get that as being such a wonderful idea, it's hard to let go of too as it felt great to be able to do that. But sadly and however also understandably, the visual representation of what is and isn't exotic has now just been eroded and blurred into oblivion due to "Sharing the Shiny" love among all hunters.

I don't have an answer for this that makes any sense anymore, blizzard has eroded any way to make sense of it. And I find it so frustrating that I've actually given up on giving a _ _ _ _

And I 100% agree that giving BM's the ability to further enhance any pet (via an additional ability or what have you) they tame is an awesome and elegant way to bring that exact feeling of "I'm a Master of Beasts" They can come up with what ever system they want.

Whether is a lazy dulled down version of what MM/SV get when they go "LONE Wolf' on live atm. a "Here, here's a drop down menu, pick what ever you want..#yawn" kind of system. Or maybe a more heartfelt or family considered approach that actually looks at every family and what it may actually be capable of and splitting the bonuses up among large groups of families

Ok and exaple (and a pretty rough one) So Spirit Beasts Spirit mend they aren't removing thus far so lets use that. What beasts among all beasts look like they could be potentially magic enough to heal you

• Spirit Beasts,
  Spore Bats
  Cranes
  Dragonhawks
  Windserpents

and make that the group that gains "Spirit Mend" once tamed by a BM hunter.

Now a group that could use a Shell Shield

• Turtles
  Basilisks
  Beetles
  Shale Spiders
  Worms
  etc. etc.

Now all this is well and good, but also as Junrei has expressed, there are still just some things, that just feel dam exotic. And myself in my BM special snowflake way, think the idea of a MM hunter running around with Loque'nahak kinda makes my head spin and think Nope Nope Nope Nope. #TheWorldOfWarcraftIsFallingApart

But then I also know it's because we have been conditioned to think that by blizzard from the past and so I'm left very lost about the whole thing. I know exotics are not worth their salt anymore, yet i still kind of yearn for them to be, yet know they never will/can be in the way they used to be again.

The whole thing hurts both my head and my heart and all I can do is throw my hands in the air and try walk away...

[Silivren]

Honestly, I'm at the point where.. If I can tame a cat made of pure gemstone as a MM hunter but not a shale spider.. also made of gemstone because that's considered exotic.. then the system is messed up. And if I can tame a mana wyrm but not a mana saber? That's just dumb, I'd LOVE a mana saber but the character who I want it for isn't my BM hunter because it doesn't fit her, but fits another character. The whole thing is very confusing, and then making chimera and rylak - separate families but both exotic? It just doesn't add up to me. And again I cant tame a flying two headed creature or two headed corehound unless I'm BM, but I can tame a three headed hydra which is literally a beast of legend? I just, honestly.. it makes no absolute sense anymore.

[Shinryu Masaki]

So... if the Mana Sabers are exotic, what kind of extra skill/skills do they get? Because quite frankly I was sure they where just going to be normal cats, so I'm curious to find out what kind of weird thing they get. O_o;

[Wain]

So... if the Mana Sabers are exotic, what kind of extra skill/skills do they get? Because quite frankly I was sure they where just going to be normal cats, so I'm curious to find out what kind of weird thing they get. O_o;

Nothing so far. I don't think any pet abilities have been touched yet (that I've noticed), so I think that may be put off for a future pass.

[zedxrgal]

But then I also know it's because we have been conditioned to think that by blizzard from the past and so I'm left very lost about the whole thing. I know exotics are not worth their salt anymore, yet i still kind of yearn for them to be, yet know they never will/can be in the way they used to be again.

The whole thing hurts both my head and my heart and all I can do is throw my hands in the air and try walk away...

This ^^^ is exactly how I feel to the letter.

We all are on the same page it seems. Yes I admit I want that special snowflake feeling with my BM hunters again. Shame we've lost it and Blizzard has gotten so far away from what made exotics special and the class. Even from the ye olden days when you had to have the BM hunter pet build. This may sounds harsh but it really sucks Blizzard dumbed down things to cater to those who QQ-ed about "BM getting all the good stuff". I feel, and this is only speaking for myself, that had that not happened maybe exotics wouldn't have lost their specialness (<-- is that even a real word?) so to speak. But. It is what it is.

Realistically speaking. How hard would it be to actually merge families??? Honestly?
I mean. I can take my devilsaur and make him a tank without his losing his exotic rating. Same with a SB. In my feeble mind it doesn't seem all that hard to make Rylak's and Chimera's one family. Clefthooves with Rhinos. They're still exotics. Family classification doesn't matter really. Least not from my view point.

Side note: Typing this while working & taking care of patients. Hope it makes sense.

[pop]

As a bm hunter, I don't want to feel handicapped if I choose to stick with my non exotic pets hence why I think that exotic should only be about having different choice in aesthetic while at the same time giving our non exotic pets exotic skills as well.

[13thmaiden]

I still think the best idea for all of us would be that as masters of beasts, we give the tamed pet of all families the ability to unlock a special ability.

From as long as I remember BMs brought the buffs to the floor, and we had to know our pets to know which one would benefit us the best in a situation, be it raid/dungeon/solo.

I know they took away the buffs so we can 'choose whatever pet we want!' but at the same time, it means all the pets are now basically the same. Only difference for us BMs is now we can tame 'the shiny!' but it doesn't do anything better than any other pet. For some people the challenge of the tame and special snowflake bit will help some. But I really think that to separate us would be that not only can we tame these beasts that no-one else can, but even for the beasts that everyone can tame, we are so connected to them that we can unlock one special ability. Basically like one of the buffs the pets had before would be good. Maybe some work on checking over said buffs, but still that every family would have this secret ability opened by the BM.

And yes, merging families or atleast making a decent attempt to put like families together. Thunder lizards not an exotic? What??

I hope I'm making some sense, sorry if I don't it makes sense in my head atleast XD;;

[Kurasu]

I feel (also said by several others) that there desperately needs to be a merging of some families.
Clefthooves and rhinos

..... rhinos *are* clefthooves.

Unless they're de-merging them in Legion?

[zedxrgal]

I feel (also said by several others) that there desperately needs to be a merging of some families.
Clefthooves and rhinos

..... rhinos *are* clefthooves.

Unless they're de-merging them in Legion?

No I'm just an ass. I meant to say merging like the cloven /ruminants in one large family. But upon thinking about it now that may not work with clefties and rhinos being exotic. But I don't know.
/shuttingupnow

[PrimalTazza]

I really think exotics should be done away with. What makes and doesn't make a pet exotic is, as others have said, blurry. While with, say, some of the "original" exotic families you can definitely add it up, they've gotten more mundane over the years.

I think exotics should get canned, and pets tamed by BM should get additional abilities, I wouldn't even mind it being universal. It'd only have to be something along the lines of the "bite" "smack" and "claw" thing they do now. Or maybe something initiated by the hunter itself? A kill command-esque ability similar to DK ghoul leap. Since we're so dependent on our pet being able to deal damage, and a lot of pets are held back by the admittedly sometimes weird AI pathing, I think it'd do a lot of good to give pets that ability (although I've sometimes seen charge/blink strikes/etc. get the pet in an even worse position where it's stuck a foot or two above the ground on a rock that they apparently feel stranded on Tremors-style).

Maybe expand pet specs for BM? A "bonus skill" for each spec? A ferocity pet applies a bleed or a "take % more damage from the pet and/or hunter for X time," or cunning being the PVP spec could have something to sniff out "the one in the dress" and with a click can identify, target and attack whoever was healing the previous target and possibly interrupt them or slow their casting speed for a little bit. Tenacity would get something else generally tanky, like a good ol' damage reduction, or maybe an AoE growl. These could be wired up to a button similar to the warlock's Command Demon.

Edit: Thinking back, maybe exotics are less about the pet itself being super unique and more about how commonly tamed or how easily tamed something like that would be. Remember that the mundane water striders also include the Zangarmarsh tripods which I don't think are used as pets anywhere in the game by NPCs. Worms are the same way - they might be simple and easily coerced/tamed creatures, but the only people I've read about actually taming them in-game were ancient Nerubians who used the enormous jormungar to carve out the caverns that their cities were built in. Silithid may just look like bugs, but it could take a lot of effort on our part to properly disconnect them from lingering Old God/Qiraji/hive mind influence and actually make them tame, which many beetles, spiders, ravagers and others would probably lack. Rhinos and clefthooves... sure, they seem pretty mundane, but rhinos lived in Northrend where not many people probably even tried to tame them. I'd suspect the expert tamers would be the ones to discover that. Clefthooves? Sure, plenty of orcs tamed them, but that doesn't mean they'll just give up their knowledge of how, and considering that they'll only give ONE of the factions the time of day... while tauren are probably friendly enough to teach both sides a little about kodo, and both sides have probably had enough exposure to them by now anyway, not to mention that the night elves could easily know a thing or two about it.

These mana sabers might just look like swirly, colorful cats, but if they're magical beasts, they'll most certainly require special care compared to regular cats. They'd likely be susceptible to fel corruption, may be attracted to or feed on magical sources, possess more intelligence, etc.

The Zandalari had these handy books to teach us their binding methods and how to tame these direhorns. But they also tamed devilsaurs, which BM hunters had to figure out on their lonesome.

Core hounds are... core hounds.

I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here, I still think it's a little blurry and that exotics should be done away with (let me survival with my Thunderlords Rylak pls) but still have a suitable replacement to make our pets feel superior.

[Rikaku]

I'm probably in the minority camp, but I honestly don't think exotics have lost relevance. Nor do I think they should be done away with. Now if you ask me "Should Blizzard have found a different way to implement exotics into the game then they are now?" I would say a resounding yes. But given the current state of the game, state of the spec, state of the class fantasy, I feel it'd be 'too late'.

Imo, Exotics won't lose relevance unless Beastmastery stops being about beasts.

To me, it doesn't really come down to "does the lore support this creature being exotic?", it comes down to Beastmaster Hunters should be able to tame creatures normal hunters cannot. Every spec should have something that the other spec simply 'cannot do'. For MM and BM, its being unable to melee like the SV. For BM and SV, it's being unable to use some of the shots the ranged and dexterous MM have. For MM and SV, it's being unable to tame certain families.

And in regard to the suggestion of "BM should just get extra skills for the families they tame".

Personally, I am against the idea of "let any spec tame anything, just let BM Hunters have an extra skill." Going forward in Legion, we're getting rid of "raid buffs" which include pet-family buffs. Which is honestly a great decision and I would personally hate to see us take 2 steps forward with this change and then one step back. Blizzard couldn't even make pets equal when every family had a buff. Because some buffs were grea, while others were completely lackluster (unless you PVP'd). For example, I know a few hunters (including myself) who were completely disappointed that we still can't really enjoy having a Fox pet. Why would I bring a Fox, which only does 30% dodge chance increase for itself in addition to pet damage, versus bringing at least a Wolf who could do the same damage as the fox and buff my party?

And at least WoD got some of this balancing issue fixed, but prior to that Hunters had existed since Classic with an understanding that there are some pets 'that just aren't as good'. It's been a trend ever since the days of the ZG bat and Brokentooth. Each expansion we move forward, pet balancing got a bit better and better, but there was always those few families that you knew just weren't as good. I even recall a thread on this very forum where a few hunters were upset that the Talador Teroclaws ended up being Carrion Birds because of the lackluster Bloody Screech (maybe Mortal Wounds shines better in PvP? XD).

And that doesn't mean you can't love em. Or you can't enjoy them. Heck, some people don't care and use em anyways. And that's awesome too! But I imagine there's some people in my position too. That simply can't afford (or feel they can't afford) to bring the cute happy Fox to the raid when we're trying to clear content and need all the dps and buffs we can get to do so.

But the long-winded point of my post is just that... Blizzard has a history of having a long and slow reaction to balancing Hunter pets. I honestly don't trust them to make an idea like "all specs can tame anything, but BM gets buffed up versions of the families w/ extra skills" right and balanced. I feel I'll just end up in the same boat we've been in regarding families for the last decade of WoW. If we're just getting rid of raid buffs and the applicable pet family buffs, then I'm happy to see it go since I finally won't feel bad bringing my fox or teroclaw to a raid.

[Zulmalakhan]

considering that the new "specially themed to fit the fantasy" BM spec in legion has 2 pets that ,from what I understand from our testers here on the forum, are weak as sin and die really fast... there is no reason for exotics, they always felt like this very big or very powerful beast ( the best examples being devilsaurs and spirit beasts respectively ).....in all honesty I don't want to have 2 devilsaurs out that die faster than a raptor.... a survival hunter would make SO MUCH more sense now to have an exotic pet fighthing BY his side and you know.... working in unison ( blizzard was drunk when they made hunters fit the fantasy and mixed survival and BM up a bit )...... so yea, exotics don't make much sense to be BM exclusive, they are not this super awesome unstoppable pet anymore, they are 2 weak ass pets...ironic... demo locks and beast masters have the same sort of direction going for them, summon a pet and summon more smaller ones to help ( wild beast and summon dreadstalkers and wild imps ), the funny thing is that demo lock demons are still this one, big, tough, ass-kicking pets/minions. O well....