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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:40 pm 
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    Posthaste (Beast Mastery, Marksmanship) Disengage also frees you from all movement impairing effects and increases your movement speed by 60% for 8 sec. 5 sec.
    Posthaste (Survival) Harpoon also frees you from all movement impairing effects and increases your movement speed by 60% for 8 sec. 5 sec
    .


So yet again, a talent we have had for how long?, is now being nerfed because it's better than running slow because they removed cheetah....

So because they give us 2 absolute garbage options on our 3rd tier, that there is only one that makes any sense to use.... "Oh that can't be right... those other two are awesome, we better nerf that other one to make it even less appealing."
And yet ironically, it's still the best option by far for any combat related activity... "Lets fix some more stuff by breaking it!" :roll:

I'm aware they are changing

    Dash Talent
    Requires Hunter
    Requires level 45
    Increases the duration of Aspect of the Cheetah by 3 seconds.

to

    Trailblazer Talent
    Requires Hunter
    Requires level 45
    Your movement speed is increased by 30% anytime you have not attacked for 3 seconds.

This is just SO much better than the dash talent, but Trailblazer is simply a broken Cheetah. Not being able to attack for 3 seconds to make it activate means this is pretty much only ever going to be of any benefit outside of combat.
This is a quality of life perk, not a combat perk. This means you can never use this to kite or help anyone or anything, apart from running away. :|

And as far as Farstrider is concerned, having an escape mechanism set to be effected by random resets is a really dodgy design. Unless you just playing for pure giggles this kind of design is pretty darn odd. Prior Farstrider used to give Hunters 2 charges of disengage, personally I thought it was clever, unique, not that overpowered, but then...
"Lets fix some more stuff by breaking it!"

They say they are looking at feedback, but it almost feels like they are looking at what is working and we like, then nerfing that. It's head scratching stuff.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:47 pm 
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What? Why?

So incredibly lame. I swear we give them feedback and they just ignore it. Instead they take even more from us.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:04 pm 
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...

I can't even comment on this right now, it's too frustrating.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:16 pm 
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Sounds like another Blizzard idea to get you to think about your talents so than none of them feel "mandatory" or "go to". At the rate they're going, they should just scrap talents altogether and just baseline the stuff that's useful and balance accordingly. That's what they did with glyphs.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:14 am 
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I don't get the mindset of having to nerf other talents to make one less mandatory though. Especially when this tier of talents are mostly personal preference and simple speed/mobility choices... Why not just buff/tweak the other two to make them more appealing? They've already improved trailblazer a lot, just not enough to get me to drop posthaste.

Even with this nerf, I'm not dropping posthaste.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:59 am 
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Lupen202 wrote:
I don't get the mindset of having to nerf other talents to make one less mandatory though.


No one does Lupen, no one does.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:01 am 
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Just a note shamans still have ghost wolf druids still have travel form why cant we have our "Travel form?" am pretty sure you can still ghost wolf or travel form to run away, was our kiting in aspect that over powered?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:08 am 
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Pretty sure that Posthaste at 5sec still beats out Cheetah in a marathon. Maybe not if you have the legendary that halves aspect CDs AND the trait for Cheetah in Titanstrike, but.

Ugh. I just... I wish they understood, and they so very clearly do not.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:26 am 
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We can't say they don't listen......It just happens to be that it's always Opposite Day in Blizzard Land.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:12 am 
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....that's ridiculous.

There are multiple fights in dungeons/raids that having a root break is essential. Posthaste is still the most appealing on those grounds alone.

The only good thing about cheetah is the knowledge that it will eventually drop to a 2m cd with a fully built artifact. (In fact, mine has it already. And it's incredibly helpful.) Could drop it to 1m with the correct legendary (....good luck on THAT). But I still don't like the short burst then the slower followup. And now Posthaste is losing some of that utility too? Ugh.

Sigh. :(

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:31 am 
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WoWhead also has mention of the good old Narrow Escape right under posthaste:

Quote:
"(Leap backwards) and activate a web trap which encases all targets within 8 yards in sticky webs, preventing movement for 8 sec"


Pretty much the same way it was in WoD.
It was arguably at times a better talent to use in arenas against all melee opponents, but at the same time I always had other options to rely on with the old toolkit, between Explosive throw-away trap, Freezing trap and Master's Call to take care of roots for me or a team mate + glyphs to make disengage leap further and so on.

Add to the fact that PvP talents Viper Sting and Scorpid Sting will have 45 and 30 seconds cooldowns respectively and Viper Sting's duration will also be half of the current one, and I'm not sure I will continue PvP-ing on my hunter in 7.1. :|

Not to be so doom & gloom, it isn't so much this current nerf that's rattling me, I'm sure most will adapt, as will I, it's that most of my toolkit that I've been so reliant to take care of the certain situations is gone and I altogether continue feeling like my hands are tied all the way through Legion :D


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:17 am 
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I'm in agreement this line of reasoning makes little sense. Instead of dealing with the problem (Cheetah/Trailblazer), they "fix" what ain't broke? Wat

As for me. losing those 3 seconds sucks big time, but I still think its way better than the other choices.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:16 am 
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Aweena wrote:
Just a note shamans still have ghost wolf druids still have travel form why cant we have our "Travel form?" am pretty sure you can still ghost wolf or travel form to run away, was our kiting in aspect that over powered?


And just imagine the uproar if they modified travel form and ghost wolf so that druids and shammys would get knocked out of it if they took any damage, like unglyphed cheetah used to do to hunters.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:49 pm 
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Shelassa wrote:
Not to be so doom & gloom, it isn't so much this current nerf that's rattling me, I'm sure most will adapt, as will I, it's that most of my toolkit that I've been so reliant to take care of the certain situations is gone and I altogether continue feeling like my hands are tied all the way through Legion :D


Yes, this, thank you.

I hate not being able to CC anymore. Wyvern Sting is an emergency peel, due to having a 45s cd and 30s uptime. Binding Shot is a nice AoE stun, but only if the targets move. (Good luck on casters.)

We can't dispel either. Our interrupt has a 24s cd.

At least with disengage and the speed boost attached to it, I can reposition myself in raids, especially around less mobile classes where I've got to be the one to move. And now that's going to be less effective too.

I still love this class and spec, but the more we become raw damage machines, the more frustrated I get. This is why I didn't want to play BM in previous expansions. And yet, there were enough baseline hunter abilities that I didn't feel like I'd lost everything when I did respec.

I know hunters have a lot of advantages due to being the only ranged non-casters. But taking away most of the fun things we can actually DO as BM is not a solution, IMO. And it's even worse as MM, since we don't even have pet perks there, due to Lone Wolf being overly efficient. (And don't get me started on half the pet families having no special abilities again. I know it's a lot of work to rebalance pets in addition to everything else, but they're basically all we've got left.)

Just because I'm making the best of what BM is currently, it doesn't stop me from getting frustrated quite often. It's less fun and more work and that's not helpful.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:29 pm 
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I hate not having CC as well... I just miss my traps so much. Hunters should be a crafty, diverse class; able to handle many different situations. And that used to be the case, but now I feel useless.

I get that traps are survivals thing now, part of Blizzards way of diversifying the specs to fit their 'class fantasy' (as if being melee isn't different enough). But is it too much to ask to just get one or two traps back? I mean you'd think someone with unmatched knowledge on beasts (BM) would know how to trap them as well. I think it'd be pretty damn cool & fitting to get a big bear trap that functions exactly like ice trap did.

And I've found myself in situations where tranquilizing shot would have been nice to have back as well. :/

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:01 pm 
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Lupen202 wrote:
I hate not having CC as well... I just miss my traps so much. Hunters should be a crafty, diverse class; able to handle many different situations. And that used to be the case, but now I feel useless.

I get that traps are survivals thing now, part of Blizzards way of diversifying the specs to fit their 'class fantasy' (as if being melee isn't different enough). But is it too much to ask to just get one or two traps back? I mean you'd think someone with unmatched knowledge on beasts (BM) would know how to trap them as well. I think it'd be pretty damn cool & fitting to get a big bear trap that functions exactly like ice trap did.

And I've found myself in situations where tranquilizing shot would have been nice to have back as well. :/


^ All of this. When I think of all of the utility we've lost... BM hunters have had our aggro range expanded thanks to Hati, yet we're the ones with no camo, so we risk pulling just by having our pet - essentially our primary weapon - out, more than ever before. No traps, nerfed cheetah etc. etc., now this. It's genuinely frustrating, and honestly I can't work out the logic behind it at all. Now, I don't believe this at all, but one would be forgiven for thinking that there's a dev who really hates BM hunters and is a few patches away from making BM hunters glorified training dummies.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:55 pm 
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I'm a weird pick for the mythic+ groups that my guilds run. My cleave is spectacular, but my single target and interrupting is mediocre and my CC is garbage. They have to be very, very careful about who else is in a group with me, especially on higher levels. We didn't even reach the timer on HoV +6 last week (most of the guild was doing +8s and +9s) because our group was a vengeance DH, a marksmanship hunter, a beast mastery hunter (me), an affliction warlock, and a resto druid. The pull up the stairs that with teeming had two mystics, two runecarvers, two champions, and I think at least one other thing? globaled the tank and healer on nearly every pull because we couldn't CC enough of the casters. I did two Nelth+8s with a different group and the pack with four pelters was MISERABLE; we failed the timer on the first attempt but succeeded on the second because our healer switched to tank, our tank switched to a spec with CC, and we pugged a healer. I feel so helpless when there's nothing I can do when we're setting up for a pack like that; I offered to pick up wyrven but because it can't really be reapplied it was basically worthless with the fire mage and my beast cleave and everything else.

This is not why I chose my hunter as my main. I chose my hunter because it was versatile and quick and could cast on the move and fill in little gaps here and there and only planning and foresight and quick reactions on my part—the part of player skill that doesn't show up on damage meters—would make a difference.

I am no longer versatile—raid buffs are no longer a thing nor is pet CC and the only utility my pets now bring to the table is limited to battle rezzing and heroism. Don't get me wrong, those are super helpful to have available in dungeons, but it does further cement BM's role as "dungeon hero, raid filler." I can count on one hand the number of times I've needed to use my core hound or crane/quillen in a raid environment since the end of 2012 when my hunter got mained.

I am no longer quick—I run at 100% move speed all the time, and my bursts of speed are both so short that I often forget to use at least one of them when on long journeys. They're also both tied to either a long cooldown, or multiple button and mouse presses (switch from autorun to strafing sideways, jump, rotate mouse 90°, shift-5 to disengage, rotate mouse 90°, turn autorun back on).

Casting on the move is the only thing I have left, and only as one of three specs. Marksmanship is as sessile as most casters (I think only Arcane is more rooted in place), and Survival may as well not exist at all for me anymore.

(I'm also in a position where I'm about to unlock the ability to wear two legendaries and I haven't even gotten one... and the CC ring is literally a downgrade for me right now. Can't really make use of the proc except in dungeons sometimes (AGAIN—I love being able to mostly get a spot in dungeons because that's always been a problem as a pure DPS, but as a raider I need to focus on helping my larger team too), and the increased agi doesn't make up for losing the mastery on my current rings for crit (the haste is nearly identical on the legendary and my current ring). Every raid boss killed and every mythic+ completed and every emissary box opened is a combination of dread and disappointment, and I'm so so so tired of it.)

I dunno, I'm getting off-topic here I guess. Three seconds off Posthaste isn't the end of the world but it feels JUST like the Chimaera changes in beta—changes to bring a talent that offsets some of the less-fun aspects of our design in line with two others that are just flat out zero fun AND don't offset our base lack of fun either.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:20 pm 
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It just feels like they're intentionally doing the opposite of what we ask for. It boggles my mind.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:00 am 
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To expand on Xella's point, mythic+ groups need to be composed carefully. Us having really high AoE burst is only so useful.

I ran more m+ instances today and was continually frustrated that the other two dps in the group had more controllable stuns than mine. Even though I did nail a couple that probably saved the tank's life (boo raging), I wasn't happy about my contributions most of the time.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:47 am 
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I really don't understand what is going through their heads these days, nor do they spend much time explaining it. I can't help but think there's some long-term goal that we aren't seeing. I don't mean necessarily a goal we'll like or even find enjoyable, but one that fits their business model. Maybe they looked at the future and decided the only way they can give us more things is to take it all away so we can earn it back later. That certainly fits the Zelda-like nature of the more recent game expansions, where everything you work to gain you then lose when the next xpac hits, so you can earn it all back with a different background theme. So maybe they're allocated only so much of our old powers we're allowed back, so they can give a little more back at expansion 8 and more at expansion 9. It certainly feels like they're resenting giving anything back at all and will let only enough back to prevent large-scale abandonment of the class.

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