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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:46 am 
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Blizz has been inconsistent when it comes to reanimation and what it does to those reanimated. Sylvanas, Marshal Redpath, Lilian Voss, Lord Godfrey, Galen Trollbane, and others have been reanimated by their murderers and were not instantly loyal to them. Then there are others such as the Hillsbrad Humans, Silverpine Humans, the Kirin Tor in Silverpine, the Kul Tiran heroes in BfA, the Alliance soldiers in 8.1, and Kaldorei in 8.1 that are, for not reason, loyal to the people that killed them; which makes absolutely no sense. It would be like Arthas killing Sylvanas, reanimating her, she retains free will and continues to help him with killing her own people.

The means through which new Forsaken have been reanimated hasn't been changed. The Val'kyr that reanimated them back in Cata (possibly prior) are the same ones doing so now.

That's true, part of the reason that the Forsaken were they way they were was due to rejection from their families, but that has been changed with Before the Storm. The Alliance showed that they don't actually hate them and are willing to mend relationships with them. Even Genn has softened his stance and doesn't believe all Forsaken are evil -- only Sylvanas.

I don't know what Blizz is planning, but a lot of it doesn't make any sense. There is no reason why a Kaldorei -- whom was literally murdered moments prior to being reanimated by their murderer, would willingly help them with wiping out the rest of their race. Or why Kul Tiran heroes would instantly turn against their own countrymen. Many people are starting to think that the Forsaken really don't have free will (which is supported by death VOs of Forsaken and risen Kaldorei), but that Blizz isn't coming right out and stating that Sylvanas is partially or completely mind controlling them.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:15 am 
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If it turns out to be like that it will piss off the people who play as a Forsaken myself included.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:02 pm 
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The Kul'Tirans make sense.

The other Kul'Tirans haven't dealt with Forsaken before really, they really do see them as abominations and monsters. Horde see this during the war campaign.

However, the Kaldorei make zero sense. BUT, if you listen to the Dark Ranger voiceover, they also sound EXTREMELY robotic. They don't sound like they have any control over their actions.

I'd say the most likely scenario is Sylvanas is controlling the Kaldorei, and Sira/Delaryn's comments about Tyrande not being there for them are a red herring to make us think she isn't.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:05 pm 
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I have alot of things I could say about this, but given the events of today, I've probably had my quota of anger for the day. Suffice to say I hate this.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:46 pm 
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Myzou wrote:
The Kul'Tirans make sense.

The other Kul'Tirans haven't dealt with Forsaken before really, they really do see them as abominations and monsters. Horde see this during the war campaign.



That mum certainly did see her husband as a monster that's for sure. Poor guy he only wanted not to be ill anymore ;-;

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:25 am 
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Valnaaros wrote:
Blizz has been inconsistent when it comes to reanimation and what it does to those reanimated.


Yes and no. Yes, it's inconsistent, but not because "Blizz is being inconsistent" It's inconsistent because it affects different people differently. This has been stated more than once, both in the Forsaken Starting area and later on. For instance in the Horde Campaign you go to raise an Alliance leader, and when you do "Undeath" has hit her pretty hard. She's far more towards "Zombie" Than flouncy bouncy undead PC. It becomes an issue and she runs off into the woods at one point. Voss sends you to get some herbs to help her sort of snap out of it. Such information didn't just spring wholecloth. That means the undead know of this possibility and have ways to deal with it.

Also in the Undead starting zone there's bunches of mindless undead running around that reanimation did not 'Stick' with.

Valnaaros wrote:

Sylvanas, Marshal Redpath, Lilian Voss, Lord Godfrey, Galen Trollbane, and others have been reanimated by their murderers and were not instantly loyal to them.


Sylvanas was. It took her a while to break free. But again it affects different people differently.

Valnaaros wrote:

Then there are others such as the Hillsbrad Humans, Silverpine Humans, the Kirin Tor in Silverpine, the Kul Tiran heroes in BfA, the Alliance soldiers in 8.1, and Kaldorei in 8.1 that are, for not reason, loyal to the people that killed them; which makes absolutely no sense.


Ehhh.. it kinda does. They're not 'named/important npcs" so they don't have the will to resist it, or to buck the system, etc. You don't expect the average rank and file GI in a war movie to suddenly and out of no where step up to save the day. They're there to die for the movie. The named characters you've been watching all film are the heroes/villians. But In world, those ones you listed off were just average people. The ones that it affects differently are either above or below average.

Valnaaros wrote:


It would be like Arthas killing Sylvanas, reanimating her, she retains free will and continues to help him with killing her own people.


When she was raised she was under Arthas control until eventually that control slipped and due to being such a willful individual (Hero) She eventually broke free and then became a becon for others to go to and join. Nathanos for example was a (near) mindless scourge UNTIL Sylvanas went and 'freed' him. Only with her influence could he find his way back to a thinking state. Now he's her general, trainer, and right hand.

Valnaaros wrote:

The means through which new Forsaken have been reanimated hasn't been changed. The Val'kyr that reanimated them back in Cata (possibly prior) are the same ones doing so now.


They are, but also, just as different people handle being turned undead in different ways, the Val'kyr have different..... levels of effort they can put into it too. We see this demonstrated in the story about how Nathanos got rid of his old rotting body and got a new freshy one. The ritual that the Val'kyr went through to acheive it seriously weakened her (For a while? For ever?) But it shows that your normal every day raising is only one service they show.

Also remember there are 'levels' of Val'kyr. There are the bigguns. The 'Original 9' of which we only have a handful left, but there are also 'Lesser val'kyr' that can ALSO Raise people. We see them in Adoral etc. So... maybe your lesser val'kyr can raise rank and file forsaken to fill the levies and cannon fodder and the greater Val'kyr are the one's used to raise hero units and for the more complicated stuff.

Valnaaros wrote:

That's true, part of the reason that the Forsaken were they way they were was due to rejection from their families, but that has been changed with Before the Storm. The Alliance showed that they don't actually hate them and are willing to mend relationships with them. Even Genn has softened his stance and doesn't believe all Forsaken are evil -- only Sylvanas.


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm No. Not really. Not at all actually.

Anduin, "Lets hug it out" Went against EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVERYONE To arrange that meeting.

In that meeting 20 alliance members (Or less) Went to see 20 forsaken. I say or less because one member went to see three undead sons so that would seem to imply less than 20 alliance took the field.

Before they even started some of the alliance took one look and turned and walked off. Rejecting the undead counterparts. Some others went up and tried to talk and STILL left. On the horde side when those that were rejected came back Sylvanas was all like "I frakin' told you! They won't accept you"

So of the 20, we have a subset, that's not exact, but clearly a number smaller than 20 that staid and tried to talk to the undead.

This isn't a sweeping change. This is 10 or so people that for a few minutes stomach'd the proximity of their dead family etc. Of them a smaller subset. That we know of... one. Truely accepted the forsaken (Her father)

This lead to mutiny of about 10 forsaken. They started trying to defect. Sylvanas blew the horn. Some turned back. So of the 10... a subset of THAT turned back towards the wall, but it was too late at that point and Sylvanas had all 10 killed. (As a note people freaked and acted like sylvanas conducted a massacre or something. She killed about 10 people over half of wich were defecting to the enemy and had been warned.)

So "The alliance" DIdn't show anything. NOONE but Anduin thought it'd work. And.. it didn't. The majority of those 20 couldn't stomach their dead counterparts and most of the others just chatted for a few minutes. Only the daughter truly accepted and that lead to the Massacre.

Past that Callia trying to usurp Sylvanas didn't help and while Genn said that he saw something new, and wasn't sorry he came, he's not turned over a new glowing leaf. You did play through the fall of lorderan right? Genn and all his stuff there? He may not be a Furry Pittbull about it but his 'softening' is only a notch down from 11. That still leaves it at about a 10.

Valnaaros wrote:


I don't know what Blizz is planning, but a lot of it doesn't make any sense.


It does if y ou don't look at being raised as undead as a binary situation.Where you're either 100% loyal or 0% loyal. The game never presents it that way.

Valnaaros wrote:
There is no reason why a Kaldorei -- whom was literally murdered moments prior to being reanimated by their murderer, would willingly help them with wiping out the rest of their race.


There's reason. You just have to look at it from their PoV. Dalayn and Sira even allude to it. One points out along the way "Where was Elune, when the tree burned, when all those night elves died. They prayed and she didn't come. Didn't help" (Paraphrased)

It's sort of like being a christian and praying for lord's favor when the romans came down the road and oops. Dead. It's easy to lose faith in that sort of situation.

Then you die... and the Night Elf Afterlife is not there. A pretty big 'lie' and shattering of your faith. You're then given a choice. The darkness of the abyss or to come back and fight for the one that rescues you from -literal- death. You're brought back. It becomes a matter of 'Where was your god when you needed her? Where was all her magic and light? Ohhhh she letyou BBQ and cook alive? Well here's a queen that saves you LITERALLY From the abyss.

So with the 'betrayal' of the goddess (And lets not forget Tyrande was out co-chillin' with the humans who -failed- to show up in time, and even during the Warfront that's coming up. Told Tyrande they didn't have anyone to spare to help her... they'll get around to it later.

So their goddess Elune didn't save them
Their queen was off dicking around with humans and didn't show up till the fighting was over.
Malfurion got his ass kicked AGAIN and had to be saved AGAIN, and that dude is prone to 1000 year naps anyway. Not really someone you can count on.

It's very easy to see one's discontent being manifested fully when you die, Elune isn't there to cuddle you to her ample boosum. Oh no.. but Sylvanas is there. (Figerativly) She offers you another chance at 'life' (Undeath) and the ability to sick it to those people that betrayed you and failed you in life.

It's also very distinctly indicated that 'undeath' in and of itself mutes the 'softer' emotions. Love. Compassion. Friendleness. Friendship. While amping up the more harsh ones. Hate, rage, anger, betrayal.

So if you already feel betrayed, by your god, by your queen, by everyone. You die and the love and compassion you had for... anything.. is turned way down. Not destroyed but severely muted. It's very easy to see why your allegence could switch. More over some are very likely given the "Serve us and live again. Don't and fall to the abyss" Fear of that final death keeps them from stepping out of line.

So there's plenty of reasons for the sudden shift, with out even working 'Magic, that's why' into the equation.

Valnaaros wrote:

Or why Kul Tiran heroes would instantly turn against their own countrymen. Many people are starting to think that the Forsaken really don't have free will (which is supported by death VOs of Forsaken and risen Kaldorei), but that Blizz isn't coming right out and stating that Sylvanas is partially or completely mind controlling them.


It's a version of Freedom by choice of service. They're 'free' because they're given the 'choice' to serve sylvanas or... go ahead and die. In that agreement "You come back to life but serve me" you agree to such service. If you choose not to, they thank you for your time (More or less) and return you to the grave.

But once you make that pledge, Sylvanas expects you to live by it. You made that devil's bargin afterall. You were given the choice. You 'could' have chosen death. If you read Before the storm. Sylvanas is concerned by the undead that think their time on Azeroth is done and they've been undead 'too long' and would like to 'die' more or less. Not because she's an evil bitch, but because they're her people and she wants them to 'live' (such as it is.)

Now the further down the 'chain' you go, the less and less cognizant thought you're going to find. I.E. the Forsaken that are barely more than Zombies are likely strapped into armor. Handed weapons and pointed at the enemy. but others, such as the one going through bins off spare parts and 'repairing' other forsaken, are forsaken by choice.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:52 am 
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Sylvanas was. It took her a while to break free. But again it affects different people differently.


How was Sylvanas loyal to the LK? Having no free will does not equal being loyal to someone. She didn't have a choice.

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Ehhh.. it kinda does. They're not 'named/important npcs" so they don't have the will to resist it, or to buck the system, etc. You don't expect the average rank and file GI in a war movie to suddenly and out of no where step up to save the day. They're there to die for the movie. The named characters you've been watching all film are the heroes/villians. But In world, those ones you listed off were just average people. The ones that it affects differently are either above or below average.


What does that matter? Just because they are not named or important doesn't mean that the rules don't apply to them. Besides that, the main cornerstone of Forsaken society is Free Will. If Sylvanas is still granting all new Undead free will (Which I highly doubt) then that opportunity would be granted to everyone and not just those whom are named or important. As such, why would a Kaldorei whom is a member of the Army of the Black Moon decide to serve Sylvanas after he/she was just killed by her or someone working on her behalf? Why would a Kul Tiran Archmage in Silverpine serve the Forsaken when he was hellbent on killing them moments before?

Quote:
When she was raised she was under Arthas control until eventually that control slipped and due to being such a willful individual (Hero) She eventually broke free and then became a becon for others to go to and join. Nathanos for example was a (near) mindless scourge UNTIL Sylvanas went and 'freed' him. Only with her influence could he find his way back to a thinking state. Now he's her general, trainer, and right hand.


The majority of the Forsaken broke free when Ner'zhul began to lose control over the Scourge. Even Arthas began to lose power when this occurred. As far as we are aware, Nathanos was the only Undead that Sylvanas personally helped to free.

Quote:
They are, but also, just as different people handle being turned undead in different ways, the Val'kyr have different..... levels of effort they can put into it too. We see this demonstrated in the story about how Nathanos got rid of his old rotting body and got a new freshy one. The ritual that the Val'kyr went through to acheive it seriously weakened her (For a while? For ever?) But it shows that your normal every day raising is only one service they show.

Also remember there are 'levels' of Val'kyr. There are the bigguns. The 'Original 9' of which we only have a handful left, but there are also 'Lesser val'kyr' that can ALSO Raise people. We see them in Adoral etc. So... maybe your lesser val'kyr can raise rank and file forsaken to fill the levies and cannon fodder and the greater Val'kyr are the one's used to raise hero units and for the more complicated stuff.


The ritual is seperate from reanimation. All Val'kyr are capable of reanimating undead and creating new Forsaken -- including those in Andorhal. The Nine are only unique in that only they can reanimate Sylvanas. Besides this, we have no reason to believe that a normal Val'kyr couldn't possibly undertake the ritual.


First off, unless I'm mistaken, there were never exact numbers given. Those are assumptions in regards to how many people actually agreed to be there, how many Forsaken defected, etc.

Second, there was more than just Philia and her father that defected. There were the three Felstone boys and their grandmother. There was Tomas Gray and his living best friend. These are just the ones outright mentioned. There were more, but we don't know exactly how many.

Anduin, for all intents and purposes, is the face of the Alliance. He leads the Alliance as High King. Regardless of what other leaders thought, it was still the Alliance that took the first steps towards peace between Humans and Forsaken.

Genn said, "Ther was no violence. No... anger, or hate. Not even hard words, it seemed. And while those happy reuinions were remarkable, extrodinary, it struck me that this was even more important. Because if humans and Forsaken could meet, with so much emotion involved, and disagree---dislike, or even be repelled by one another--and simply walk away..."

"All I'd seen from Forsaken was treachery, deceit, and a hunger to end life." I watched my boy die in my arms, giving his life to save mine, he thought but did not say. "I saw ghastly, shambling mostrosities descend upon living beings with no desire other than to snuff out that light of life. I'd never seen what I saw that day. I never thought I could."

"I believe in the Light," Genn stated. "I've seen it, benefited from it, so I have to. But I've never really felt it. I couldn't feel it from Faol. I just saw what I viewed as a gut-wrenching travesty - an old friend, dead, animated like some sort of joke. Spouting things that couldn't possibly be true. And then he said something that was true. Too true. It cut like a blade, and I couldn't bear that."

"But he was right. You were right. I still think what was done to the Forsaken against their will was horrifying. But it's clear to me now that some of them haven't been broken by it. Some of them are still the people they once were. So I was wrong, and I apologize."


I would say that, compared to before, Genn has changed a lot. Prior to this novel, he never would've considered any sort of mercy for the Forsaken. He didn't view them as anything other than monsters. His words in Lordaeron were spoken by a man that wanted Sylvanas - the murderer of his son - dead. Even Anduin wants Sylvanas to die. He didn't state that they were there to wipe out the Forsaken or the entire Horde. They were there to bring vengeance upon Sylvanas.

Quote:
It does if y ou don't look at being raised as undead as a binary situation.Where you're either 100% loyal or 0% loyal. The game never presents it that way.


When did I say that I viewed it that way? There have been plenty of examples where there have been Undead or Forsaken that were some where inbetween.

Quote:
There's reason. You just have to look at it from their PoV. Dalayn and Sira even allude to it. One points out along the way "Where was Elune, when the tree burned, when all those night elves died. They prayed and she didn't come. Didn't help" (Paraphrased)


So that excuses them trying to wipe out the rest of their race? Ok, their faith in Elune is gone. They no longer trust Tyrande (whom, btw, is not the Kaldorei Queen. She hates that title). But how does that excuse them deciding to aid in commiting genocide against the Kaldorei race? The only ones that betrayed them are Elune and Tyrande. How did the innocent civilians in Teldrassil betray them? How did the Kaldorei in the Horde Death Camps in Darkshore betray them? Even if Sira and Dalaryn are filled with such hatred, that doesn't explain nor excuse any other Kaldorei that has been killed and reanimated. In the Horde Darkshore scenario, there are Kaldorei that have undergone the Night Warrior ritual that are literally killed, reanimated, then sent against their fellow Kaldorei.

We don't know if they did or did not see an afterlife. It is assumption to say that they did not.

Quote:
It's a version of Freedom by choice of service. They're 'free' because they're given the 'choice' to serve sylvanas or... go ahead and die. In that agreement "You come back to life but serve me" you agree to such service. If you choose not to, they thank you for your time (More or less) and return you to the grave.


Where was this choice ever offered? The only time that it has ever been shown was back in Cata during the Forsaken starting zone. Telling was offered Undeath, but that is it. The others that were reanimated were never offered a choice. They were reanimated and instantly began serving the Forsaken in fighting their own countrymen. Now, if we're to go by your early statement that Heroes are some how stronger of will than your typical rank and file, then why are Kul Tiran heroes willing serving the Forsaken in killing their own countrymen?

Besides, the Forsaken can leave whenever they want to. In the Forsaken starting zone, they are offered three choice: serve, die, or go your own way. Even if a Forsaken didn't want to be with the Forsaken anymore, according to Sylvanas' rules, you should be able to just leave or die--which is interesting, seeing as she wouldn't grant the Desolate Council or its supporters the choice or die or gradually rot away in BfS. However, outside of the starting zone, that choice nor the choice of dying isn't given. Even Telling isn't exactly serving entirely of his own free will. He is only doing it to protect his family and knows that if he should stop serving or being useful, that they could possibly become Forsaken, too.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:41 am 
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This Val'kyr thing is starting to feel Sylvanas's horcruxes :) They all need to be defeated before she is.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:04 am 
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Wain wrote:
This Val'kyr thing is starting to feel Sylvanas's horcruxes :) They all need to be defeated before she is.


Agreed. They are honestly a "get out of death free card" for her.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Wain wrote:
This Val'kyr thing is starting to feel Sylvanas's horcruxes :) They all need to be defeated before she is.


So the Val'kyr must be preserved at all costs? Sounds like it's time to go capture Eyir again :)

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Valnaaros wrote:
Wain wrote:
This Val'kyr thing is starting to feel Sylvanas's horcruxes :) They all need to be defeated before she is.


Agreed. They are honestly a "get out of death free card" for her.


Time for Mathias to stop holding up that post in Borulus and go get some Val'kyr :lol:

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