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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:43 am 
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Illustrious Master Hunter
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Humans which turn out to be working with Ashvane, who is the main enemy of Tiragarde Sound. Even if these humans were working with the Proudmoores, they aren't having the children of the Trolls/Horde standing nearby watching.

I agree that the Horde races have different standards than humans do, there are still things that they cannot possibly find morally right. Bombing a building filled with children is not ok. Polymorphing humans into fish so that they asphyxiate is not ok. Let's say that all of these acts were done by the Forsaken, then that still puts guilt on the rest of the Horde since they know what they are doing and aren't doing anything to stop it. An example of this is how the Horde is burning the forests of Ashenvale in order to cause Nature pain. There aren't any Horde Shamans or Druids that speak against this as of right now. From what I've read, a lot of the Story Forums aren't so much mad that Sylvanas is evil and looking like Garrosh 2.0, but that the rest of the Horde is going along with it. That could obviously change if info is found in the future that shows dissent amongst the Horde, but such info doesn't currently exist. The only individual that has is Saurfang.

I don't want for this xpac to become another MoP, but it isn't looking very good for the Horde right now. We could get info that could put the Alliance in a more negative light, but I can't see that really happening with Anduin in charge.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:58 am 
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That's fair, and honestly, I don't... really like what Blizzard is doing here. As others have said, we'll really just have to see how this all plays out in context in the expansion, but even as morally different as much of the Horde is... the trolls and goblins were actively USED as target practice by the orcs, in MoP. (Which is another whole can of beans and frankly I hated how that was written too, and Draenor, so really maybe I just hate how Blizzard handles some things) They'd probably have some opinions. And the Tauren should be in uproar!

I do think the Horde is just gunna be full of nasty boys to some degree, but this kind of thing definitely reads as either yet more old god corruption but faction wide this time, or... Writing I disagree with. But I just need to chill and get used to it. :lol: I haven't liked the writing for three expacs now and that doesn't seem to be changing.

Edit- I hadn't seen your post, Veph, but yikes. Both factions seem like they're getting pretty ugly. With that info, I wonder if Blizzard is trying to go with a more "horrors of war/how war makes animals of us all" message?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:10 am 
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I don't think that N'zoth is actively controlling anyone, but I do think that he is manipulating the Horde and Alliance so that they weaken one another. The first patch of BfA is very much Horde v. Alliance, but there are things (like Naga presence in Stormsong and Azshara being a boss) that suggests that the rest of the xpac may be an Old God xpac. How the factions will turn out after that, I don't know. Though, personally, I am just hoping that Sylvanas goes away. I'm sorry to those that like her, but it just seems like she causes way too many problems and certainly isn't helping work towards true peace.

Yeah, those humans aren't truly aligned with the Alliance. They are secretly working with Ashvane in undermining Katherine Proudmoore. I would prefer that they weren't working with her since it would add some more dark themes for the Alliance. As of right now, the only greyer act of the Alliance is in Zuldazar. The main incursion force there is led by a Dark Iron, and he would prefer to play it safe and kill all of the Nightborne forces in the southwestern region. The leader of these forces happens to be Oculeth's third apprentice, who is killed.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:44 am 
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LupisDarkmoon wrote:
.......more on topic, if blizzard makes the Horde the end boss again i'm gunna scream.

This. I love playing Horde, and the moral ambiguity in many places was something I could work with. However, I really don't want to see more horde leaders killed off as raid bosses. Partially because I'm very fond of Sylvanas, despite everything she does, and it would suck to see her killed off in a raid.

I'm also curious as to how First Arcanist Thalyssra will react to seeing what the Horde is doing. Not saying that it was a bad choice to have them join the Horde, but I wonder if the Blood Elves and the subconscious debt to be repaid will be all that keeps her from outright leaving them and returning to Suramar. I doubt Thalyssra will accept the 'this is war and war isn't pretty' as an excuse for what's happening in Stormsong in particular. Both factions are capable of doing horrible things, and it might be a bit of a reality check after the lull that came after the defeat of Argus.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:51 am 
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Valnaaros wrote:
It is looking more and more like Sylvanas will be a villain this xpac. In Stormsong Valley, the main village there is being sacked by the Horde. Sylvanas has ordered the Horde to leave no survivors and for them all to be raised as new Forsaken.

There are various horrific acts that the Horde is commiting. Trolls are using cowering humans as target practice. They are impaling them against walls (whilst their children cry nearby). Mages are polymorphing humans into fish so that they asphyxiate. An adult led a line of children into a building to keep them safe, then got bombed.


Wow this is dark... Defo take away any inkling of temptation i had to return ... this is just too much

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:32 am 
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I wish Jaina would go away. She was a good character that got written badly later on. As far as I am concerned there is no redemption for her.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:38 am 
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Vephriel wrote:
Syleye wrote:
I disagree with your assessment of her character at this point. but the pro alliance views on here are over whelming so it's really not worth trying to have an open discussion about it. I stand by my statement that I will wait until the whole front end story is released not bits and pieces

Fixed my wording, may have been a little tweaked initially

Don't worry Syleye, I'm right there beside you and my Dark Queen. ;)


Thank you, I appreciate it. I have played both sides and have far preferred the Horde side of things for various reasons. As a matter of fact I have a baby hunter ( because one can never have enough hunters) and am redoing the Silverpine quests. It is obvious she cares about her people.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:06 am 
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I would agree about Silverpine, Syleye, except that Chronicles Vol 3 has retconned what actually happened. Originally, Garrosh ordered Sylvanas to attack Gilneas. Now the lore has been changed that she always wanted to attack them and that she did it on her own volition.

An additional detail added in Vol 3 is that Forsaken are not reanimated with free will. It takes additional magic to grant them that. Those at Deathknell (like the PC) are granted free will, whereas those in Silverpine were not. This detail may have been added due to one of the things that Sylvanas does during the Siege of Undercity, which is that she reanimates Alliance human soldiers. If she grants them free will, then why would they help her?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:32 am 
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Because the Alliance would kill them on sight where as the Forsaken wouldn't until they were attacked. :| :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:08 pm 
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I always played Allience back when I played but I always liked The Lament of the Highborne...such a sad, tragic story. Stunning voice who sings it.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Tårnfalk wrote:
I always played Allience back when I played but I always liked The Lament of the Highborne...such a sad, tragic story. Stunning voice who sings it.


I have always loved that piece. I listen to it every now and then :)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:52 pm 
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It's a haunting beautiful, ancient elven song with striking imagery--comrades dying all around on a beautiful sunny day. I do that quest on all my horde toons.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Valnaaros wrote:
I would agree about Silverpine, Syleye, except that Chronicles Vol 3 has retconned what actually happened. Originally, Garrosh ordered Sylvanas to attack Gilneas. Now the lore has been changed that she always wanted to attack them and that she did it on her own volition.

An additional detail added in Vol 3 is that Forsaken are not reanimated with free will. It takes additional magic to grant them that. Those at Deathknell (like the PC) are granted free will, whereas those in Silverpine were not. This detail may have been added due to one of the things that Sylvanas does during the Siege of Undercity, which is that she reanimates Alliance human soldiers. If she grants them free will, then why would they help her?


what

I actually had to get up out of bed as soon as I read this on my phone because I'm so angry. :lol: They retconned it? Really? This is the second time they've introduced really interesting, complicated character development (see: Garrosh in Stonetalon Mountains) and then backed out on it so it can be needlessly black and white, and I can't actually describe how much that kills my faith in Blizzard's writing. Why are we supposed to care at ALL what they write, if they're going to retcon it at any point? Heck's sake, Sylvanas had the entire Broken Shore event bonding with Varian and being really chill and cool, and her Silverpine quests were amazing! Why back out of really compelling character growth?

ooooo that really makes me steam. ooooo.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Ah, blizzard's story development has always been bad because faction vs. faction trumps everything--goes back to its RTS origins.

Any time they introduce anything interesting it never goes anywhere, because they can't handle shades of grey. Pandaria had such a refreshing beginning, and then look how it ended.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Can anyone confirm with their will be a Bronze Dragonflight, because what will happen to Duskstalker?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:25 pm 
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The changes to UC and Teldrassil haven't been added yet. Even still, Blizz statdd in an interview or two that they aren't going to allow us to go back to old versions of those areas. So either they will change their minds or move Duskstalker elsewhere.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:16 am 
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Unlike with the Horde and Stormsong Valley, the Alliance hasn't be doing anything wrong in Vol'dun. There are Vulpera being enslaved by humans, but it is by the Ashvane Company, which are enemies of the Alliance.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:25 pm 
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I just wanted to pop this in here for all my fellow Horde members and Alliance who are interested. gives perspective.

In an interview with game’s senior producer Travis Day, principal artist Jimmy Lo, and senior designer Steve Burke about these features, we had this little exchange:

I: The various conflicts between the Horde and Alliance have sparked once again because of the Azerite. But, it seems that Sylvanas Windrunner is showing as a villain too much according to the revealed story so far. Is there any chance that she will be corrupted and become a boss in the future, or has a chance to redeem her image?

S: Oh, you never know. Anything can happen, and we have nothing to answer on that front, but I know what you mean. I think that it just depends on your perspective, she’s an interesting character, and a very charismatic leader too. She’s very effective. You’re right, I think throughout the history of Warcraft, the Horde and Alliance have always been just a hair’s breadth away from war. We’ve hit war several times in the history. This is the first time in World of Warcraft where we actually get to set everything aside and go after each other. There have always been other bigger things such as Lich King that we’ve had to either come together for or at least set our differences to the side to be able to take care of. And now, it’s turning back on each other. They’ve got plenty of reasons not to like each other.

J: It’s a matter of interpretation. There’s no clear like this person is good and that person is bad. It really depends.

T: Because Sylvanas is not evil. In the story for her, it’s much more. She’s definitely aggressive, and she definitely believes in having power and control, but I also think that she does take seriously the representation of the Horde. She has a different perspective which is that the Horde will never be safe until the Alliance is wiped out. But, is she acting in a cruel, mustache-twirling evil way? Not really, she’s just trying to defend her people.

Source: https://www.invenglobal.com/articles...raft-interview

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:38 pm 
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To the Forsaken, no, she probably isn't evil. But to the Alliance, they can't see her as anything but.

Here is a list of a few things she has done

Kills Nathanos his cousin, a Paladin, just so that Nathanos can get a new body

- Southshore

- The killings of harmless farmers/living remnants of Lordaeron, including vile experimentation with plague and blight.

- Abducts someone for re-education (torture) in the Undercity because the battle was done under too honorable terms

- already planning to see Stormwind burn to the ground

- Invaded Gilneas to conquer, completely without any provocation, and had civilians do forced labor in mines and be experimented upon if they were too weak

It is one thing to defend your people and another to go out conqueroring new lands. Garrosh claimed to be doing the same for the Horde/Orcs and, well, we saw how thay went.

"anything can happen"
"depends on your perspective"
"matter of interpretation"
"In the story for her"

They're dancing around what is going on.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:54 pm 
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It will never matter what is said. Those of you who for some bizarre reason are willing to hat a pixel character and a side will never listen. You want to hate her and us go right ahead. It does not make your opinions fact.
Seriously your blatant biases make it hard to take any of your post seriously because one never can tell if they are the whole picture or your cherry picked items.

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