WoW Petopia Community

A fun place to chat about hunter pets in the World of Warcraft.
Visit the Petopia homepage Petopia Homepage
It is currently Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:20 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum Rules: Treat others with respect. Report, don't respond. Read the complete rules.




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 219 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:06 pm 
Offline
Artisan Hunter
Artisan Hunter

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:08 pm
Posts: 984
Realm: Ner'zhul (US)
Villains can think what they're doing is right. Villains can have justifiable anger. Villains can have experienced trauma.

Please don't tell me again that murdering people who resist being imprisoned or expelled from their homes because of their race isn't villainous. Jaina is flat out a villain now.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:43 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
I completely agree on everything in that first paragraph.

I assume that you're talking about the Sunreavers. Some Blood Elves (back when they were High Elves) lived and studied in Dalaran. Due to the actions of Kael'thas and some other Elves, mass executions were held and many elves were killed. Relations were strained immensely and the Elves left the city.

During the events of Wrath, Aethas worked to have the BEs readmitted into Dalaran, which he was able to with the support of Rhonin and Modera. The Sunreavers proved themselves useful and trustworthy during the Nexus War and the war again the LK.

The trust between them and the Kirin Tor was challenged when Thalen Songweaver, a member of the Sunreavers, was an aid to Garrosh in his plans in bombing Theramore. Though Aethas vowed to make amends, the relationship was weakened.

During the events of Landfall, Fanlyr Silverthorn was ordered by Garrosh to retrieve the Divine Bell and to sabotage the talks between Varian and Lor'themar. When it was discovered that he used the Sunreaver portal system to accomplish this, Jaina confronted Aethas. He told her that he had nothing to do with it, which wasn't entirely true. He wasn't directlt involved, but he knew what was happening and thus was an accomplice through inaction rather than intent.

The Sunreavers, whom had worked their way back into Dalaran just a few years prior, had already a strained relationship with the Kirin Tor. All of this was just the last straw. To Jaina and the Kirin Tor, they weren't a trustworthy organization. We know that the whole thing was set up by Garrosh. Jaina didn't know that nor did the Kirin Tor. To them, the Sunreavers were aiding the Horde in the war.

Thus, it makes sense why they would be imprisoned and expelled. Jaina and the Silver Covenant didn't try to kill them all, but gave them the chance to surrender. If they instead choose to fight, then that was their choice and thus the consequence of death was on them.

None of this was driven because of anything racial. Prior to this, Jaina and Anduin talked and, ultimately, the former decided to allow the Sunreavers to remain in Dalaran despite the current war that was happening. The only reason they were imprisoned and expelled is because, to Jaina and the Kirin Tor, they showed that they couldn't be trusted.

In the end, it is still a matter of perspective. Debates still happen over the Purge, and they will probably always happen. If you wish to believe that Jaina is a villain, then that is youe choice, as is it mine to view her as someone that has made poor choices but ultimately isn't a villain. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:00 pm 
Offline
Artisan Hunter
Artisan Hunter

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:08 pm
Posts: 984
Realm: Ner'zhul (US)
Valnaaros wrote:
Jaina gave all of the Blood Elves a chance to surrender and be imprisoned. She only killed those that resisted.


Xota wrote:
Please don't tell me again that murdering people who resist being imprisoned or expelled from their homes because of their race isn't villainous.


Valnaaros wrote:
I assume that you're talking about the Sunreavers.

... long tedious lore that I clearly know about, including doubling down that ethnically cleansing a city is just a poor choice ...



I know it's about a fictional scenario, but when someone asks you not to repeat atrocity apologism, DON'T REPEAT YOUR ATROCITY APOLOGISM, just because you want the last word. Take some time to think about what they've asked, and what you've been doing. Adding a smiley emoticon doesn't make what you're saying less morally repugnant.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:09 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
No need to be hostile, as I wasn't trying to be hostile towards you. I phrased that first quote poorly. Jaina and the Silver Covenant only killed Sunreavers that attacked them. The scenario wasn't "Sunreaver doesn't wish to be arrested, so Jaina/Silver Covenant kills them" but was instead "Sunreaver doesn't want to be arrested, Sunreaver attacks Jaina/Silver Covenant, the latter two defend themselves". If, in real life, you are being arrested by the police and you attack them and they believe that you are a threat to their own lives or those of others, then you will be shot. And original bug had it so that Jaina, on the Alliance side of the questline, was walking down the streets of Dalaran and killing cowering citizens with Frostbolt. They fixed it so that she was instead teleporting them to Violet Hold. The only case of Sunreavers being killed were those that the PC sent to arrested, then they refused and attacked the PC, or those that attacked the Silver Covenant.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:00 am 
Offline
Journeyman Hunter
Journeyman Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:11 am
Posts: 224
Realm: Argent Dawn (EU-Eng) Kirin Tor (EU-fr)
Npc cowed in fear were also killed.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:01 am 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
Inay wrote:
Npc cowed in fear were also killed.


That's the bug I was talking about. Jaina was only supposed to teleport them away, but a bug caused her to attack and kill them.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 4:15 am 
Offline
The Insane
The Insane
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:54 am
Posts: 11134
Gender: Male
I wasn't aware the scenario had been changed. When I experienced it she was still killing everyone in her path and I figured that was intended. I have a suspicion they did intend it but backed away because of backlash. A lot of people complained that they were representing her as "another crazy female" and too far from her core character.

_________________
Shaman avatar by Spiritbinder.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 5:00 am 
Offline
Apprentice Hunter
Apprentice Hunter

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:33 am
Posts: 53
While I can no longer find a link to the tweet that claimed that Jaina attacking civilians is a bug, I do remember that she initially only teleported the civilians to the Violet Hold. I'm not sure when exactly when this changed, but I believe that it was after a server reset.

And as far as I am aware, it was not a case of old behaviour replacing new behaviour that had been put in place due to a backlash. She was always meant to merely imprison the blood elves who refused to stand down.

Edit:
You can see the old/not bugged version in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70AIowEbp_g

As you clearly see, Sunreavers who get too close to Jaina are simply teleported. She doesn't even attack them.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 5:21 am 
Offline
The Insane
The Insane
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:54 am
Posts: 11134
Gender: Male
Ah ok thanks.

_________________
Shaman avatar by Spiritbinder.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:36 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
It looks like Blizz has changed their minds and have decided to allow us to see Teldrassil and Undercity/Tirisful in their pre-BfA state :)

The Burning of Teldrassil was intentional on Sylvanas' part:

When I sent you on this mission, I did not foresee this outcome.
Our attack was meant to end a war before it began... to destroy an enemy's home and their leaders in one stroke. To inflict a wound that would bleed the Alliance dry.
We have only partially succeeded. The Alliance will retaliate. They will come for us. For me. For you.
But they ARE bleeding. Their anger will prove a weakness, not a strength, in the war to come.
Rest while you can. Prepare for the battles ahead. I will have need of you.

The partial success is in reference to them being able to destroy Teldrassil, but they didn't kill Tyrande, Malfurion, and possibly other Alliance leaders.

Very interesting development concerning the Mag'har and AU Draenei. Quoted from Wowhead.

In the following text, we learn that the Mag'har Orcs are being persecuted by the Lightbound, a group of fanatical Draenei. Even though at the end of Warlords of Draenor, the Draenei and Orcs pledged to work side-by-side, the Draenei is trying to bend the will of everyone to serve them. We learn a few interesting tidbits:

- The Mag'har Orcs in this scenario fight back against the Lightbound.

-Yrel appears to be the High Exarch of the Lightbound. ("Yrel... I have failed you..." "Your High Exarch cannot save you")

-Durotan and Draka in this timeline have a daughter - Geya'rah.

-Durotan was killed by the Lightbound and Draka runs a Garrison.

-It is alluded that the son of Warchief Grommash in this timeline, has joined the Lightbound...so, Lightbound Garrosh? The exact line is "Some orcs even sided with the draenei against their kin... even the warchief's own son was lost! We call these traitors Lightbound."

-The battle cries of the Lightbound remind us of Xe'ra's fanaticism about the Light healing all scars.

As can obviously be discerned, it has been a couple of decades on AU Draenor. The Alternate Timeline has moved forward to be at the same point as the Main Timeline.

Red Shirt Guy found Baine in Zuldazar. Baine now has lines stating, basically, that he is watching Sylvanas and making sure that she acts honorable.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:08 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:00 pm
Posts: 11787
Location: New zealand, auckland
Realm: dath remar
Gender: female
I am not shocked that the Draenei would do something like that. Religious extremism is not good and the Draenei can be like that sometimes!

_________________
I am a professional 2D animator :3
Heres my DA page
My wow model sheets (NSFW) that anyone can use!
First 251 Pokemon in Adventure time style! By me XD
Cow's art thread!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:14 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
Except they have never gone that far. Ever. The closest is the Lightforged, and it was only Xe'ra that was forcing it. This completely invalidates the ending of WoD where the Draenei and Mag'har were going to work together. Now, suddenly, after a few years, Yrel and the Draenei have gone evil and started to kill/convert the Mag'har. And why did this happen after just a few years? The Draenei were on Draenor for ~200 years, yet they didn't go on a crusade against the Orcs. Even if this isn't so cut and dry, the Alliance may never get to see the Draenei's perspective since this is a Horde-only scenario atm. All that the Draenei gained from WoD like Yrel, Maladaar, the Auchenai, the Rangari, etc are all gone now.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:31 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:00 pm
Posts: 11787
Location: New zealand, auckland
Realm: dath remar
Gender: female
Well it sounds like they have now.

_________________
I am a professional 2D animator :3
Heres my DA page
My wow model sheets (NSFW) that anyone can use!
First 251 Pokemon in Adventure time style! By me XD
Cow's art thread!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:36 pm 
Offline
Grand Master Hunter
Grand Master Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:03 am
Posts: 2768
Location: Australia
Realm: Nagrand
Gender: Female
Valnaaros wrote:
I don't agree with everything that Jaina has done, but like Genn, her anger is justified. For years she has tried to create peace between the Horde and Alliance. She was even willing to kill her own father in order to accomplish this. Even when events like the Wrathgate happened, she still tried for peace. But you can only push someone so far before they will break, and that is what happened in Tides of War.

Jaina is a tramautized character, and I don't agree with everything that she has done. But I do not view her as a true villain.


This pretty much sums how I feel too. I read tides of war and she could of done so much more but didn't. I'm looking forward to the next book tbh. I love Jaina as a character and it would be super cheap to make her a villain/raid boss now.

_________________

Image


Battle for Azeroth
Balance Druid ~Sakurie~ , BM Hunter ~Castile~, Prot Paladin ~Tsurani~



Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:38 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
Yes, and it makes no sense why this is suddenly happening. What was the point of WoD? We helped Yrel grow into a capable and wise leader. Now everything is just flushed down the toilet just so she and the AU Draenei can be hit with the both the evil and insanity bats. The Draenei don't have very many characters either so losing Yrel, regardless of what people may think of her, is a big loss.

And, again, all of the Draenei culture in WoD is just gone now, unless Blizz undoes all of this or there is much, much more to it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:44 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:00 pm
Posts: 11787
Location: New zealand, auckland
Realm: dath remar
Gender: female
Well maybe Xe'ra came and made them become religious extremists? Why are they forcing the light on people? Something triggered that to happen. Could even be the Legion!

_________________
I am a professional 2D animator :3
Heres my DA page
My wow model sheets (NSFW) that anyone can use!
First 251 Pokemon in Adventure time style! By me XD
Cow's art thread!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:51 pm 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
It could be Xe'ra, though that would imply that there is more to the AU timeline than just Draenor (which Blizz has said is all there is). If other Naaru are doing this, then it is going against what Blizz said in a 7.3 Q and A where they stated that Xe'ra is an outlier and other Naaru aren't like her. If Blizz is Retconning that, then they are also Retconning the Light. The Naaru are a manifestation of the Light's will. If the Naaru are evil, the Light is too. The AU Draenei have been characterized as people who don't act like zealots. There is a difference between religion and zealotry, but it looks like Blizz is defining the former as synonymous with the latter, and the Light itself as a corrupting influence.

I'm not against the Alliance doing questionable things, but making a group evil just for the sake of making them evil is not the way to go. I don't like what Blizz is doing to the Horde as a whole and I don't like this. Corruption isn't depth.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:53 am 
Offline
The Insane
The Insane
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:54 am
Posts: 11134
Gender: Male
Ugh. Assuming the datamined text isn't misleading, this is a terrible Draenor development. The main storylines of WoW take sudden sharp turns like a drunk driving a car. Their mantra seems to be "if it gets us where we want to go next, don't worry if it makes any historical sense". I wish the main storylines had the same degree of care as the zone ones.

_________________
Shaman avatar by Spiritbinder.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:17 am 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:16 pm
Posts: 3319
Realm: Shadow Council
Gender: Male
Same here, Wain. This doesn't make any sense at all. It's like Blizz just wanted to give the Horde/Mag'har a reason to fight the Alliance (The Au Draenei aren't even members), and the best thing they could do is to ruin characters and cultures. I would be fine with us finding the Mag'har and Draenei fighting, so long as it was for a good reason. The Draenei fighting just because "the Naaru told us to" is ridiculous.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Unread postPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:49 am 
Offline
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:00 pm
Posts: 11787
Location: New zealand, auckland
Realm: dath remar
Gender: female
Oooh what if it's all because a Draenei from our timeline went to the AU to stir up orc hate so that they could add them to the Alliance? Like Garrosh but with out the daddy issues?

I'm sure that is not what is happening but that would work.

_________________
I am a professional 2D animator :3
Heres my DA page
My wow model sheets (NSFW) that anyone can use!
First 251 Pokemon in Adventure time style! By me XD
Cow's art thread!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 219 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group