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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:10 am 
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It could be the old gods. All of BFA is bound to be Old gods. I mean there are at least two in it so far.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:26 am 
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Apparently Blizz is writing separate dialogue for the Battle for Dazar'alor raid. In the Alliance version (which the PC experiences), Genn asks that Rastakhan surrenders. In the Horde version (which is retold by a scout), Genn says to Rastakhan, "You will bow to your new master, King Anduin Wrynn." The former is canon, since that is the line that the Alliance actually hears when they reach Rastakhan in the raid. The annoying part of all of this is that it appears that the Horde line is written in such a way to try and make the Horde angry at the Alliance. From the opinions that I've read, it is just making Horde players angry at the writers.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:36 am 
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Valnaaros wrote:
Well, the story of BfA continues to get even more stupid.

According to a VO line, Sylvanas is going to "condition" Derek Proudmoore's mind so that when she returns him to his family, he will assassinate them. :/

And the Alliance have formed a literal Purge Squad and are killing Vulpera in Vol'dun for literally no reason. Draenei are laughing as they burn Vulpera alive. They are working alongside Warlocks. Shamans are drowning Vulpera. The Alliance has no reason to attack the Vulpera, let alone in this manner. The Vulpera never fights the Alliance nor actually allies with the Horde. This is 100% pants-on-head stupid >:(


This makes me super sad :( I've just started questing on my horde and so love the Vulpera...my alliance druid or paladin would NOT be cool with this! Does blizzard just want to piss everyone off at this point? "Oh good the Horde player base hates us - now it's the alliance turn!" /facedesk

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:10 am 
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Valnaaros wrote:
Apparently Blizz is writing separate dialogue for the Battle for Dazar'alor raid. In the Alliance version (which the PC experiences), Genn asks that Rastakhan surrenders. In the Horde version (which is retold by a scout), Genn says to Rastakhan, "You will bow to your new master, King Anduin Wrynn." The former is canon, since that is the line that the Alliance actually hears when they reach Rastakhan in the raid. The annoying part of all of this is that it appears that the Horde line is written in such a way to try and make the Horde angry at the Alliance. From the opinions that I've read, it is just making Horde players angry at the writers.

I don't get this. Surely there are other ways to create Horde and Alliance tension without lying to one of the factions about what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:13 am 
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Ohhh. If that's what it is then it makes a lot more sense. You're not playing what happened, you're playing a biased report of it.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:10 am 
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:( I love the Vulpera.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:29 am 
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Castile wrote:
Valnaaros wrote:
Well, the story of BfA continues to get even more stupid.

According to a VO line, Sylvanas is going to "condition" Derek Proudmoore's mind so that when she returns him to his family, he will assassinate them. :/

And the Alliance have formed a literal Purge Squad and are killing Vulpera in Vol'dun for literally no reason. Draenei are laughing as they burn Vulpera alive. They are working alongside Warlocks. Shamans are drowning Vulpera. The Alliance has no reason to attack the Vulpera, let alone in this manner. The Vulpera never fights the Alliance nor actually allies with the Horde. This is 100% pants-on-head stupid >:(


This makes me super sad :( I've just started questing on my horde and so love the Vulpera...my alliance druid or paladin would NOT be cool with this! Does blizzard just want to piss everyone off at this point? "Oh good the Horde player base hates us - now it's the alliance turn!" /facedesk


This leaves me gutted. :( So far the only thing I'm thankful for is it seems to be an incursion and not one Alliance-players actually have to play, but gosh my heart breaks. I hated having to play through the War of Thorns/Teladrassil stuff on my Horde characters, I hated playing through Brennadam, and now this... This just sucks... for both sides...


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Valnaaros wrote:
Quote:
Sylvanas was. It took her a while to break free. But again it affects different people differently.


How was Sylvanas loyal to the LK? Having no free will does not equal being loyal to someone. She didn't have a choice.


Having no free will = 100% loyalty, with out the ability to be disloyal.

Valnaaros wrote:


Quote:
Ehhh.. it kinda does. They're not 'named/important npcs" so they don't have the will to resist it, or to buck the system, etc. You don't expect the average rank and file GI in a war movie to suddenly and out of no where step up to save the day. They're there to die for the movie. The named characters you've been watching all film are the heroes/villians. But In world, those ones you listed off were just average people. The ones that it affects differently are either above or below average.


What does that matter?


It matters because this is a fictional story and cannon fodder and unnamed masses largely are backdrop and are treated differently than the 'heroes' and main characters. You know.. like every story, book, tv show, movie, videogame.... ever.

Valnaaros wrote:
Just because they are not named or important doesn't mean that the rules don't apply to them.


It's actually generally the other way around. The rules apply to them but are different for the hero types.

Valnaaros wrote:
Besides that, the main cornerstone of Forsaken society is Free Will.


No the main cornerstone is serving Sylvanas. Free will is valued in that they're no longer mindless zombies for Arthas, but in general you're not allowed to do wtfever you want. As shown by Sylvanas at Arathi.

Valnaaros wrote:
If Sylvanas is still granting all new Undead free will (Which I highly doubt) then that opportunity would be granted to everyone and not just those whom are named or important.


You're mistaking "Free will" For "I can do what ever I want" sort of like many people mistake 'Freedom" in the US for "I can do what ever I want" you really can't. The forsaken are given a choice. Rise and live again IN SERVICE TO SYLVANAS, or return to the grave. The "Free will" comes in the ____ CHOICE____ to serve.

Valnaaros wrote:

As such, why would a Kaldorei whom is a member of the Army of the Black Moon decide to serve Sylvanas after he/she was just killed by her or someone working on her behalf?


Went over that. Because their goddess failed them. Because they're given a choice. Rise and serve the darklady, or go to hell. Not everyone's willing to go into darkness just out of spite.

Valnaaros wrote:
Why would a Kul Tiran Archmage in Silverpine serve the Forsaken when he was hellbent on killing them moments before?


Same reason so many convicts find god in prision. Fear. Fear of total death. If the choices are "Rise and serve Sylvanas" or "Go to hell" A goodly number of people wil go "Well the politics suck, but hell sucks so much worse"

Valnaaros wrote:
Quote:
When she was raised she was under Arthas control until eventually that control slipped and due to being such a willful individual (Hero) She eventually broke free and then became a becon for others to go to and join. Nathanos for example was a (near) mindless scourge UNTIL Sylvanas went and 'freed' him. Only with her influence could he find his way back to a thinking state. Now he's her general, trainer, and right hand.


The majority of the Forsaken broke free when Ner'zhul began to lose control over the Scourge. Even Arthas began to lose power when this occurred. As far as we are aware, Nathanos was the only Undead that Sylvanas personally helped to free.


Gimme a break. They wern't orginizing their on anything till Sylvanas, and as for evidence, yes we have evidence about nathanos but extrapolation is pretty clear. It wasn't all of them.

Valnaaros wrote:

Quote:
They are, but also, just as different people handle being turned undead in different ways, the Val'kyr have different..... levels of effort they can put into it too. We see this demonstrated in the story about how Nathanos got rid of his old rotting body and got a new freshy one. The ritual that the Val'kyr went through to acheive it seriously weakened her (For a while? For ever?) But it shows that your normal every day raising is only one service they show.

Also remember there are 'levels' of Val'kyr. There are the bigguns. The 'Original 9' of which we only have a handful left, but there are also 'Lesser val'kyr' that can ALSO Raise people. We see them in Adoral etc. So... maybe your lesser val'kyr can raise rank and file forsaken to fill the levies and cannon fodder and the greater Val'kyr are the one's used to raise hero units and for the more complicated stuff.


The ritual is seperate from reanimation.


Because you say so? We don't know how they do either. They just kinda motion and energy comes out of their hands and things are either reanimated or the 'ritual' takes place. As it was a fade to black on the Nathanos ritual itself we don't know what happened. We just know they do both.

Valnaaros wrote:
All Val'kyr are capable of reanimating undead and creating new Forsaken -- including those in Andorhal.


lol I said that, but thanks for agreeing?

Valnaaros wrote:

The Nine are only unique in that only they can reanimate Sylvanas.


They're more unique than that. They are "Greater" Val'kyr, as opposed to "lesser Val'kyr" There's something to it, even if we don't know what it is. And as pointed out above. They're named "hero characters" the Lessers, are rank and file.

Valnaaros wrote:
Besides this, we have no reason to believe that a normal Val'kyr couldn't possibly undertake the ritual


Sure we do. They're Lesser Val'kyr and the ritual almost did in a greater one. Therefore by logical deduction it'd clearly kill a lesser, as it almost did a greater.

Valnaaros wrote:
First off, unless I'm mistaken, there were never exact numbers given. Those are assumptions in regards to how many people actually agreed to be there, how many Forsaken defected, etc.


Read it again. Hell go there in game and count the graves.

Valnaaros wrote:


Second, there was more than just Philia and her father that defected. There were the three Felstone boys and their grandmother. There was Tomas Gray and his living best friend. These are just the ones outright mentioned. There were more, but we don't know exactly how many.


There were ahandful LEAD by the Father and his daughter. But remember there were only a handfull there to start with.

Valnaaros wrote:
Anduin, for all intents and purposes, is the face of the Alliance. He leads the Alliance as High King.


He does, but noone seems to understand why. Graymane has like 50 years on him. Tyrande has 10,000, Even Moira is older than him. Mekatorque, all of them. He's their high king but nothing seems to explain why the humans hold High king through birthright.

Valnaaros wrote:
Regardless of what other leaders thought, it was still the Alliance that took the first steps towards peace between Humans and Forsaken.


First steps are fine, but you're acting like they were chill. They wern't. _________________EVERYONE________________ except ANduin thought it was a bad idea.

It was

Valnaaros wrote:
Genn said, "Ther was no violence. No... anger, or hate. Not even hard words, it seemed. And while those happy reuinions were remarkable, extrodinary, it struck me that this was even more important. Because if humans and Forsaken could meet, with so much emotion involved, and disagree---dislike, or even be repelled by one another--and simply walk away..."

"All I'd seen from Forsaken was treachery, deceit, and a hunger to end life." I watched my boy die in my arms, giving his life to save mine, he thought but did not say. "I saw ghastly, shambling mostrosities descend upon living beings with no desire other than to snuff out that light of life. I'd never seen what I saw that day. I never thought I could."

"I believe in the Light," Genn stated. "I've seen it, benefited from it, so I have to. But I've never really felt it. I couldn't feel it from Faol. I just saw what I viewed as a gut-wrenching travesty - an old friend, dead, animated like some sort of joke. Spouting things that couldn't possibly be true. And then he said something that was true. Too true. It cut like a blade, and I couldn't bear that."


Right. lets not forget his rage filled hissy fit at that juncture.

Valnaaros wrote:

"But he was right. You were right. I still think what was done to the Forsaken against their will was horrifying. But it's clear to me now that some of them haven't been broken by it. Some of them are still the people they once were. So I was wrong, and I apologize."


An apology to A human king who just sponsored an enemy defection of a handfull of civilians. he didn't apoligise to Sylvanas or the horde did he?

I seem to remember him at the Battle of Lorderon. Do you? He wasn't THAT moved.

Valnaaros wrote:

I would say that, compared to before, Genn has changed a lot.


Naa. He felt a moment of guilt because he freaked out over an old friend and then 'confessed' in secret to a boyking. he still was there leading the attack on Undercity.

Valnaaros wrote:

Prior to this novel, he never would've considered any sort of mercy for the Forsaken.


Still isn't. he saw a meeting of a handful of civilians that ended in death. Nothing's really changed.

Valnaaros wrote:
He didn't view them as anything other than monsters. His words in Lordaeron were spoken by a man that wanted Sylvanas - the murderer of his son - dead. Even Anduin wants Sylvanas to die. He didn't state that they were there to wipe out the Forsaken or the entire Horde. They were there to bring vengeance upon Sylvanas.


Oh gimme a break, he's the same mad dog on a leash he's been since he joined up. Sylvanas had it right in the throne room. He's anduin's dog and he heels when ever anduin tells him to.

More over she had it right about Anduin as well. He preaches peace and all but they came to take Loderon. That wasn't a defensive fight. The alliance bought it, Came in from the north like Arthas, and invaded. His sword was covered in blood. Just like she said, he's quick enough to draw blood when it suits him.

Valnaaros wrote:


Quote:
It does if y ou don't look at being raised as undead as a binary situation.Where you're either 100% loyal or 0% loyal. The game never presents it that way.


When did I say that I viewed it that way? There have been plenty of examples where there have been Undead or Forsaken that were some where inbetween.


That's the point. If they're inbetween then some can be closer to one side and others, the other.

Valnaaros wrote:


Quote:
There's reason. You just have to look at it from their PoV. Dalayn and Sira even allude to it. One points out along the way "Where was Elune, when the tree burned, when all those night elves died. They prayed and she didn't come. Didn't help" (Paraphrased)


So that excuses them trying to wipe out the rest of their race?


If your goddess lets people BBQ on the spit and lets you die, and the other side gives you a shot at life again, and to get back at those that lied to you, and got you and those you loved killed? yeah.

Valnaaros wrote:


Ok, their faith in Elune is gone. They no longer trust Tyrande (whom, btw, is not the Kaldorei Queen. She hates that title).


yeah well doesn't change it from being true. She's kinda a b!tch. Ask the Nightborne.

Valnaaros wrote:
But how does that excuse them deciding to aid in commiting genocide against the Kaldorei race?


They're not 'aiding in genocide' stop trying to use trigger words. There's plenty of kaldorei. They're changing sides in war to the side that literally brought them back to life. After yes, their life long goddess forsook them, their Queen wasn't even around when the tree burned and what did the alliance do?

OOooooooh Right. They said "You'll have to wait. There's a warfront in Arathi We'll get around to it later" and wouldn't send the people promised.

Betrayed by their religion.
Betrayed by their leader who only cared about her self and her Frakbearbuddy
Betrayed by the Alliance who couldnt' be bothered to help

You can't imagine why they might switch sides?

Valnaaros wrote:


The only ones that betrayed them are Elune and Tyrande.


And the ENTIRE Alliance. Anduin was supposed to send ships. he didn't. Darkshore happened an the tree burned. Tyrande goes back to ask him for help and again he tells her no. That they'll get around to it later.

Valnaaros wrote:

How did the innocent civilians in Teldrassil betray them?


They're dead. That's not the betrayal but I'm not saying THEY betrayed the. It's the rest of the people

Valnaaros wrote:


How did the Kaldorei in the Horde Death Camps in Darkshore betray them?


Horde Death camps?? Where? lol

Valnaaros wrote:
Even if Sira and Dalaryn are filled with such hatred, that doesn't explain nor excuse any other Kaldorei that has been killed and reanimated. In the Horde Darkshore scenario, there are Kaldorei that have undergone the Night Warrior ritual that are literally killed, reanimated, then sent against their fellow Kaldorei.


Well it's been outlined above but, "Betrayed by their religion, (Dying and finding only darkness,) betrayed by their Queen, (Who wasn't at the fight because she was off dicking around with the humans, showed up late and ONLY got HER beloved out) betrayed by the Alliance (Who didn't send ships when they said and after the fact still refused to)

The only ones that 'didn't betray them were the worgen. And that's a bit too little too late.

Valnaaros wrote:


We don't know if they did or did not see an afterlife. It is assumption to say that they did not.


It's shown from when Sylvanas died. She didn't. Why would they? She wasn't evil when she died she was good and there was nothing there.

Valnaaros wrote:

Quote:
It's a version of Freedom by choice of service. They're 'free' because they're given the 'choice' to serve sylvanas or... go ahead and die. In that agreement "You come back to life but serve me" you agree to such service. If you choose not to, they thank you for your time (More or less) and return you to the grave.


Where was this choice ever offered?


It's explained in the Forsaken starting area.

Valnaaros wrote:

The only time that it has ever been shown was back in Cata during the Forsaken starting zone. Telling was offered Undeath, but that is it. The others that were reanimated were never offered a choice.


You can prove that?

Valnaaros wrote:
They were reanimated and instantly began serving the Forsaken in fighting their own countrymen. Now, if we're to go by your early statement that Heroes are some how stronger of will than your typical rank and file, then why are Kul Tiran heroes willing serving the Forsaken in killing their own countrymen?


Depends on what you mean by heroes. Heroes are "Named units" A bunch of troops aren't heroes.

Valnaaros wrote:

Besides, the Forsaken can leave whenever they want to. In the Forsaken starting zone, they are offered three choice: serve, die, or go your own way.


I don't remember there being a third choice. Cite your source please?

Valnaaros wrote:


Even if a Forsaken didn't want to be with the Forsaken anymore, according to Sylvanas' rules, you should be able to just leave or die--which is interesting, seeing as she wouldn't grant the Desolate Council or its supporters the choice or die or gradually rot away in BfS.


Not at all. The Desolate council lived and served in Undercity, they CHOSE To live and Serve Sylvanas.

She just wasn't letting them Defect later in the middle of a war. That's like going "What do you mean American's wernt' allowed to go and join up with the Nazi's! Theyr'e free aren't they??"

Valnaaros wrote:

However, outside of the starting zone, that choice nor the choice of dying isn't given. Even Telling isn't exactly serving entirely of his own free will. He is only doing it to protect his family and knows that if he should stop serving or being useful, that they could possibly become Forsaken, too.


Naaa he's no good to them mindless. he serves or he dies. Conscription is hardly unique.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:44 am 
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Quote:
Having no free will = 100% loyalty, with out the ability to be disloyal.


When someone becomes an Undead unwillingly and aren't raised as lesser undead (like some skeletons or ghouls), then they retain their minds and personas. Sylvanas did not want to serve Arthas. Thassarian did not want to serve him. Koltira did not want to serve him. They did not have a choice since their will was not their own. If they had a choice, they would not serve him because they are not loyal to him. Undead like Kel'thuzad, the Cult of the Damned, Falric, Marwyn, Orbaz Bloodbane, Baron Rivendare, etc. were all loyal out of their own volition.

Quote:
It matters because this is a fictional story and cannon fodder and unnamed masses largely are backdrop and are treated differently than the 'heroes' and main characters. You know.. like every story, book, tv show, movie, videogame.... ever.


Heroes are the center of the story, generally, but rules of the magic of the universe apply to all. If lore and rules are only going to apply to people deemed special, then the lore is hollow.

Quote:
o the main cornerstone is serving Sylvanas. Free will is valued in that they're no longer mindless zombies for Arthas, but in general you're not allowed to do wtfever you want. As shown by Sylvanas at Arathi.


Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. That may have changed since then, but Forsaken culture was built off of free will being a very important part of who they are. And yes, you can technically do whatever you want. That is what free will is. That does not mean that you are excempt from the consequences of your actions. You have the free will to go and rob a bank, but the consequence is that you'll be arrested.

Quote:
Went over that. Because their goddess failed them. Because they're given a choice. Rise and serve the darklady, or go to hell. Not everyone's willing to go into darkness just out of spite.


So these Kaldorei that underwent a ritual that had a very good chance of destroying them -- a ritual that signifies their devotion to their goddess -- is all instantly thrown away because they died? And how did Elune fail them? She granted them the power to fight against their foe. She allowed them to survive the ritual. And who to say that there is a hell or that they'd go to it? That is an assumption on your part.


Quote:
Same reason so many convicts find god in prision. Fear. Fear of total death. If the choices are "Rise and serve Sylvanas" or "Go to hell" A goodly number of people wil go "Well the politics suck, but hell sucks so much worse"


Again. You're assuming that anyone that dies is going to hell or something like that. We know full-well that when Sylvanas died, she was briefly in a paradise where she felt bliss. Arthas then snatched this away from her when he pulled her into Undeath. So if she went to a Heaven when she died, then why wouldn't a mage of the Kirin Tor? Why wouldn't a Kaldorei Druid go and dwell in the bows of G'hanir?

Quote:
Gimme a break. They wern't orginizing their on anything till Sylvanas, and as for evidence, yes we have evidence about nathanos but extrapolation is pretty clear. It wasn't all of them.


In the wake of Illidan's failed attempt to melt the icy continent of Northrend, the powerful energies possessed by the Lich King inside his Frozen Throne slowly began to decay. Inexorably this resulted in a partial loss of control of the more distant Scourge forces. The result was that many undead under the Lich King's mental domination had their conscious will restored. Their spirits and memories were somehow returned to their undead bodies. I never said that they were organized. I said that they broke free on their own. As far as we know, Nathanos was the only one. Unless there is evidence of other Undead being personally freed by her, then he was the only one.

Quote:
Because you say so? We don't know how they do either. They just kinda motion and energy comes out of their hands and things are either reanimated or the 'ritual' takes place. As it was a fade to black on the Nathanos ritual itself we don't know what happened. We just know they do both.


Because we know how they work. Reanimation is using necrotic magics to force the soul of an individual imperfectly back into their bodies. The ritual used on Nathanos involved necrotic magics, the own power/energy of the Val'kyr, and a living sacrifice of the same race. When a Val'kyr reanimates a body, they are not weakened in the process. When they perform the ritual, they are weakened (we don't know if it is permanent or not).

Quote:
They're more unique than that. They are "Greater" Val'kyr, as opposed to "lesser Val'kyr" There's something to it, even if we don't know what it is. And as pointed out above. They're named "hero characters" the Lessers, are rank and file.


They are capable of reanimating Sylvanas because they were not apart of the original pact. In regards to the lesser, they were created from one of The Nine. When she was killed, they dissipated.

You're applying rules that don't exist. Unless Blizz has stated that rules of lore and magic only apply to heroes, then it applies to everyone

Quote:
Sure we do. They're Lesser Val'kyr and the ritual almost did in a greater one. Therefore by logical deduction it'd clearly kill a lesser, as it almost did a greater.


Ok, then why doesn't Sylvanas just use lesser Val'kyr to perform the ritual on the Forsaken to reform them? Because they can't. "Sylvanas defied a kingdom to name you ranger lord. She scoured the Plaguelands to reclaim you from the Scourge. And today she drew upon her most precious resource to restore your strength." The Nine are special because of the pact.

Quote:
Read it again. Hell go there in game and count the graves.


We know that more Forsaken were killed than just those that have graves. There were Forsaken killed that were returning to Sylvanas after she sounded the horn. They were not named nor retrieved by the Alliance and buried.. The ones that were running away, killed, and later buried were Parqual Fintallas, James Felstones, John Felstone, Jacob Felstone, and Tomas Gray. Vellcinda "Ellie" Benton was arguing with Calia when she was killed. She was also buried.

Quote:
There were ahandful LEAD by the Father and his daughter. But remember there were only a handfull there to start with.


Yes, which were the ones I just mentioned. There were others, but we don't know who they are nor were they buried by the Alliance. And true, there were only a small amount, though we don't know exactly how many.

Quote:
He does, but noone seems to understand why. Graymane has like 50 years on him. Tyrande has 10,000, Even Moira is older than him. Mekatorque, all of them. He's their high king but nothing seems to explain why the humans hold High king through birthright.


This is true. I don't understand why he is, and I don't think even Blizz has really thought it out.

Quote:
First steps are fine, but you're acting like they were chill. They wern't. _________________EVERYONE________________ except ANduin thought it was a bad idea.

It was


I never said that they were chill about it. Genn wasn't happy about it. Turalyon wasn't until he reunited with Faol. But regardless, they didn't stop Anduin and the plan would've worked if it weren't for Sylvanas. When Anduin first touched Azerite, it showed him thousands of ways to achieve peace. The Gathering was one of those ways, and it would've worked if Calia hadn't acted as she did and if Sylvanas hadn't lost it and ordered for everyone whom didn't immediately retreat to be killed.


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An apology to A human king who just sponsored an enemy defection of a handfull of civilians. he didn't apoligise to Sylvanas or the horde did he?

I seem to remember him at the Battle of Lorderon. Do you? He wasn't THAT moved.


Because it wasn't his doing. Calia was the one that started it, then Sylvanas made it worse. Besides, even Genn admitted that they were in a tough spot. They couldn't go to the Horde and claim otherwise since they had no proof of what Sylvanas did. It was their word against the Warchief of the Horde.

Of course I do, and his anger was directed at Sylvanas, not the Forsaken. Even in the Xpac Cinematic he said to Anduin, "We have her cornered." He wasn't talking about the Horde as a whole or even the Forsaken. The Alliance and Genn were there to take out Sylvanas since she was what stood in the way of peace.

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Naa. He felt a moment of guilt because he freaked out over an old friend and then 'confessed' in secret to a boyking. he still was there leading the attack on Undercity.


He has changed. As I mentioned, he was there to take down Sylvanas. He blames her for the death of his son and his people -- not the Forsaken or Horde. And it doesn't really matter if he confessed privately to Anduin or gave a speech to all of Stormwind, he has still shown change. Even in the upcoming raid he doesn't express fury towards the Zandalari or Rastakhan. He actually acts rather humble when asking for Rastakhan to please surrender. As you may know, he used to be an extremely prideful person.

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Oh gimme a break, he's the same mad dog on a leash he's been since he joined up. Sylvanas had it right in the throne room. He's anduin's dog and he heels when ever anduin tells him to.

More over she had it right about Anduin as well. He preaches peace and all but they came to take Loderon. That wasn't a defensive fight. The alliance bought it, Came in from the north like Arthas, and invaded. His sword was covered in blood. Just like she said, he's quick enough to draw blood when it suits him.


In 8.1, when Maiev and Shandris go to the Alliance in Stormwind to ask for help in retaking Darkshore, Anduin declines helping them (for good reasons). However, Genn tells Anduin that he and the Worgen are going to help the Kaldorei in Darkshore, whether Anduin likes it or not.

After Sylvanas led the Horde through Ashenvale and Darkshore with the intent of commiting Genocide (which Sylvanas admits was such in the Horde novella). After thousands of Kaldorei civilians were burned alive (which Elune eased the suffering of). All of the Alliance wanted the one in-charge of it all -- Sylvanas -- to pay. Again, they were there to take down Sylvanas because of her crimes and because she would never change nor desire peace. What were the Alliance to do otherwise? Sit in Stormwind? We know that one of Sylvanas' goals is to sack the city and reanimate its denizens.

And if you're going to bring up Arthas, at least apply the comparisons to where they actually exist, like how Sylvanas led a murderous force against an Elven nation and eventually reanimated them, as well as the commander that led the defense.

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If your goddess lets people BBQ on the spit and lets you die, and the other side gives you a shot at life again, and to get back at those that lied to you, and got you and those you loved killed? yeah.


What is she supposed to do, make them immortal and invincible? Blizz isn't going to create a race like that. Besides, you could apply that to basically everything: the Light, Elements, Nature (Ancients), Void, etc. And again, there is no reason to believe that they go to a Hell. We know that Kaldorei, upon death, become wisps and continue to serve Elune and nature. Why would they, a people that revere, if not worship, nature choose to not have that?

Except that they aren't going after Tyrande and/or Mal. They are going after all Kaldorei, including the ones they loved. Why would a Kaldorei want to kill their parents, partners, siblings, or children?

And how wouldn't be genocide? Sylvanas states in the novella that her goal was to destroy the Kaldorei people, their cities, and their places of worship. That is genocide. It isn't a trigger word if it is true.

Where is it stated that Elune forsake them? Two Kaldorei have claimed that, but claims doesn't make it true.

Read the Alliance novella. It explains why Tyrande wasn't there and it is a viable reason. Besides, what was she and the Alliance supposed to do? The majority of the Alliance forces are on the other side of the world. The forces that were there were divided and overwhelmed. They were fighting a losing battle. And how would they extinguish a burning tree?

They say that later in 8.1, and they aren't wrong. They are fighting in Arathi. They are fighting on Zandalar and preparing for a major attack. The missions indicate that there are multiple fronts that the Alliance is fighting on. They can't spread their forces too thin or else the Alliance will be defeated. Besides, Maiev remarks that Anduin sending the Alliance PC means far more to them than if he sent an entire army.

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And the ENTIRE Alliance. Anduin was supposed to send ships. he didn't. Darkshore happened an the tree burned. Tyrande goes back to ask him for help and again he tells her no. That they'll get around to it later.


And that would takes weeks if not longer. Ingame mechanics of hopping on a ship and instantly reaching the otherside of the world is not how it actually is.

Read what I just said above.

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They're dead. That's not the betrayal but I'm not saying THEY betrayed the. It's the rest of the people


Not all of them are. A good number were evacuated -- so many that every tavern in Stormwind is filled with Kaldorei. The Cathedral is packed. The streets are lined with them. There are so many that they are pouring out of the frontgates and camping in the immediate woods between the city and Goldshire.

If we exclude them, why are they fighting and killing Kaldorei that are trying to retake and save Darkshore? They didn't betray them. And why would any Kaldorei -- whom revere nature -- be fine with Darkshore being turned into a Blighted wasteland?

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Horde Death camps?? Where? lol


In Darkshore during the Alliance intro scenario. You find Kaldorei enslaved by the Horde (Mag'har, Trolls, Forsaken, and Goblins primarily) and held in camps. They are being forced to perform manual labor and, eventually, are killed. Sound familiar?

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Well it's been outlined above but, "Betrayed by their religion, (Dying and finding only darkness,) betrayed by their Queen, (Who wasn't at the fight because she was off dicking around with the humans, showed up late and ONLY got HER beloved out) betrayed by the Alliance (Who didn't send ships when they said and after the fact still refused to)

The only ones that 'didn't betray them were the worgen. And that's a bit too little too late.


Again, why are they killing fellow Kaldorei? Why are they defiling nature? Why are they serving alongside races that have killed/reanimated their people (breaking the Balance), cut down their forests, and killed their Ancients?

Quote:
It's shown from when Sylvanas died. She didn't. Why would they? She wasn't evil when she died she was good and there was nothing there.


Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here. With each recollection, her memory of this place palls. The sound grows distant; the warmth, cooler. The vision takes on the pallor of a half-remembered dream. But with horrific clarity, the memory always ends the same: Sylvanas's spirit is wrenched away. The pain is so intense it leaves her soul forever torn. The grinning face of Arthas Menethil, with his lopsided smile and dead eyes, leers at her as he pulls her back into the world. Violates her. His laughter—that hollow laugh—the memory of it makes her skin crawl!

There is a heavenly afterlife.

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It's explained in the Forsaken starting area.


I'm specifically refering to the Kaldorei, the Kul Tirans, and Alliance soldiers. When were they given the choice? Upon reanimating someone in Forsaken starting area, the Val'kyr immediately give them the choice of living, dying, or going their own way. That was only shown then and never again.

Quote:
You can prove that?


Yeah, because it is never shown again (outside of Telling) that anyone reanimated is given a choice. Roll a Forsaken and go through the first couple of quests. The Val'kyr do not reach out to the spirit and offer them a choice before reanimating. They are reanimated, offered a choice, then they either live, go their own way, or die. This is never again shown. Go through the Story Forums. There have been extensive discussions on this and is always agreed upon that the choice is never again offered.

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I don't remember there being a third choice. Cite your source please?


Welcome back to the realm of the living. With the blessing and power of the Dark Lady, I have freed you from death's grip.

You are no slave, <name>. You are free to follow whatever path you choose from here. If you choose to serve the Dark Lady Sylvanas, I recommend you speak with Undertaker Mordo. You will find him behind me, in the graveyard.


They are allowed to just go their own way if they so choose.

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Not at all. The Desolate council lived and served in Undercity, they CHOSE To live and Serve Sylvanas.

She just wasn't letting them Defect later in the middle of a war. That's like going "What do you mean American's wernt' allowed to go and join up with the Nazi's! Theyr'e free aren't they??"


Yes, to help their fellow Forsaken, but they didn't want to continue living forever. The Desolate Council is an interim organization of Forsaken who took it upon themselves to lead the Undercity in the absence of Sylvanas Windrunner, with her Warchief duties bringing her out of her homeland,[2] initially counting 22 individuals in its ranks. It was established by its leader Vellcinda. It was also a response to the strict culture of the Forsaken that stated there was no need to remember their previous life, as well as a response to Sylvanas' action to force the undead to continue their lives in undeath. They wanted to eventually just rot away or be killed. They knew that Sylvanas was trying to reform their bodies or create more, and they didn't want that.

It wasn't in the middle of a war. The war with the Legion was over. The War of the Thorns hadn't started yet. Sylvanas had the intent on eventually attacking the Alliance, and Anduin's intent was to try and establish peace between the two factions. But they weren't in a war at that time.

Technically, someone could go and join up with an enemy force. People do it nowadays with ISIS. Doesn't mean that the government is approving when they do so, but that is the consequence of making a poor choice.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:41 am 
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Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Oh gimme a break, he's the same mad dog on a leash he's been since he joined up. Sylvanas had it right in the throne room. He's anduin's dog and he heels when ever anduin tells him to.

More over she had it right about Anduin as well. He preaches peace and all but they came to take Loderon. That wasn't a defensive fight. The alliance bought it, Came in from the north like Arthas, and invaded. His sword was covered in blood. Just like she said, he's quick enough to draw blood when it suits him.


I'll ignore most of that post but I take issue with this tidbit. You seriously need to play a worgen from the starting zone or even go to stormwind to see whats left of Genn's people (and the Night Elves for that matter) as you clearly don't understand Genn or his character at all. Sylvanas has not only done wrong by him personally but also decimated his people. Why shouldn't Genn be mad at her? She killed his son in front of him and then almost got his wife too. Ofcourse he stops when Anduin says - he's the bloody king! Like Baine did as he was told by witchypoos - should we then call him a dog (obedient cow?) as well?? Ofcourse not.

And offcourse the Alliance "bought it" to Lorderon! What? We're just going to sit back and take the burning of a city that was home to TWO alliances races? The night elves live in a MF pumpkin patch in SW - go see for yourself. So to even suggest that wasn't justified is ridiculous. He tried for peace and Sylvanas killed her own people (and his) for it. So yeah they had everything coming for them. Even Garrosh knew what a mental person she was. A wise leader doesn't go looking for a war but must always be prepared to fight one - pretty much what Anduin is doing now.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:11 pm 
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It's nice to see people mad at someone else for standing up for Sylvanas. :)


FWIW, I still don't trust the Naaru. And it will be interesting when the Void Elves betray the Alliance because the whispers grow too strong. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Setanta wrote:
It's nice to see people mad at someone else for standing up for Sylvanas. :)


FWIW, I still don't trust the Naaru. And it will be interesting when the Void Elves betray the Alliance because the whispers grow too strong. :)


I'm not mad at anyone? I just am stating the facts.

The Void Elves won't end up turning against the Alliance since they are a playable race. Same reason why Forsaken won't turn entirely against the Horde or the Orcs didn't entirely side with Garrosh.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Despite the Horde intro questline in Darkshore being labeled as a "defeat", the Horde continue to succeed. Both Belmont and Faranell are saved by the Horde, even though the former was petrified by Tyrande during the Alliance intro questline. This was called out by people, but it sucks that it is actually happening :/

Prior to the raid on Dazar'alor, the Horde already has control of the Zandalari fleet, which means that the Alilance definately has causus belli. Further, it looks like the Zandalari helped the Horde in trying to attack Boralus.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Some might recall how there sentient gorillas in Zuldazar that obtained their intelligence through kaja'mite. Both the Horde and Alliance help the peaceful ones, though the former offers to do more to help them.

Well, the Goblins have decided to "help" them by poaching them. Many have been killed and only some remain. Those that remain have joined the Alliance.

Forsaken in Drustvar are implanting Orc corpses with fungus and reanimating them as those fungus orcs on Draenor. They have glowing blue eyes (like the undead reanimated by Val'kyr) and have been reduced to mindless killing machines. Despite this, Mag'har are offering support in the area.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Just read about the new choice they added for the Saurfang quest. All I can ask is "Why?" since there's no way they would think the player base is stupid. Siding with Sylvanas not only makes you a straight up villain, but you also lose out on a toy. Why make an entirely wrong choice? What happened to "morally grey"? Oh right, Darnassus happened, nevermind.

I don't main horde, but such a blatant villain option is terrible. I'm glad that Anduin, Genn, and whoever else still matters on the Alliance side haven't turned into 100% villains yet. We do need an Alliance villain though. Edgy-eyes Tyrande or seat-stealin' Moira would be good options, since the rest don't really have any villainous motives in any way yet.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Well, some people like playing the villain. While it is rather annoying that Sylvannas is seemingly becoming a second Garrosh... I'm still hoping that won't be the case in the end.

Also, I found this video to be a fun watch, it's a bit ranty, but it was an interesting perspective on the pre-launch quest line that I've never really seen. I've only ever seen people whine about the horde, including those who main horde.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... yic-1pdwxo

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Last edited by Jurz on Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Agreed, and I'm more angry about the fact that there have never been choices given before. Wanted to side with Garrosh? Too bad. Didn't want to participate in the War of the Thorns? Too bad. Didn't want to reanimate Alliance soldiers? Too bad. Wanted to kill Belmont after Tyrande froze him? Too bad. But then the one time Forsaken/Sylvanas fans start to complain, they instantly get special treatment that has never been given before. It has been suspected for a long time, especially amongst those invested in the story and lore of WoW, that the writing team has a Forsaken/Sylvanas bias. This only reaffirms that suspicion.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Jurz wrote:
Well, some people like playing the villain. While it is rather annoying that Sylvannas is becoming a second Garrosh... I'm still hoping that won't be the case in the end.

Also, I found this video to be a fun watch, it's a bit ranty, but it was an interesting perspective on the pre-launch quest line that I've never really seen. I've only ever seen people whine about the horde, including those who main horde.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... yic-1pdwxo


Which is all well and fine, but it doesn't ultimately work out in an MMO. This isn't a single-player RPG where your choices only affect you. Blizz can't eternally write two different stories based on whether you chose Saurfang or Sylvanas.


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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Oh I get why, I was just saying some people would rather side with her but of course I know it can't work out that way

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 Post subject: Re: 8.1 Story - Spoilers
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:52 pm 
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WerebearGuy wrote:
We do need an Alliance villain though. Edgy-eyes Tyrande or seat-stealin' Moira would be good options, since the rest don't really have any villainous motives in any way yet.


We really do need a Alliance villain. It's just old and lazy making Horde characters evil at this point.

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