Scattered Shots: Can Beast Mastery raid?

[Mania]

I was reading WoW Insider today (a bad habit, I know) and came across this Scattered Shots post called "Can Beast Mastery raid?"

I was surprised by the conclusions of the article, especially the last couple of paragraphs in which BM raiders are compared to players in all green equipment. I didn't think there was that big a difference!

Now you know that I don't raid (or even group) myself, but I do like to keep half an eye on the general state of the hunter nation, as it were. So am I asking you guys: How accurate is the assessment in this article?

(I know this is likely going to be a contentious issue, and I wouldn't raise it if I weren't sincerely confused. But please do remember to say polite, even to the author of the Scattered Shots post. He's a hunter too, after all.)

[Zangor]

doesnt matter much i can raid BM and do a nice 3.8K DPS wich is on par with naxx10/25 OS10/25 and Uluar10 level DPS so its really all in the gear and skill of the hunter

[Saturo]

Comparing BM to greens is not accurate! With a good rotation and spec there's about 10% DPS difference, and on many fights you'll do better DPS then the MM or SV hunters.

[Anansi]

I was surprised by the conclusions of the article, especially the last couple of paragraphs in which BM raiders are compared to players in all green equipment. I didn't think there was that big a difference!

I don't believe he was comparing the DPS output of BM Hunters to that of Greens-wearing (and pants-less!) players, rather he was saying that in a raid environment, even if you can do well in Greens and no pants, why not go further to improve to an even better DPS performance (ie get better gear and some pants). So even if you are doing solid DPS in BM, why not, in a raid environment, go to a spec which provides more DPS.

Looking at the chart given in the article, I don't believe that is useful at all. Comparing DPS for top performing players against your own isn't an accurate gauge at all and players should not look at those numbers and say "there's something wrong if I'm not hitting that".

Overall though I believe his assessment is correct. BM can technically raid, but it will not do as much DPS as Marksman or Survival. With that in mind, if you insist on raiding as BM, keep in mind the value of your raid slot, and that you may be removed in favour of a class or other Hunter with a higher DPS spec. If your raid is happy with you being BM, awesome, but that's not who the article is aimed at. Most raids require the DPS to be doing as much DPS as possible, and if you are purposefully doing less DPS due to sticking to a low-performing spec, that is not such a good thing for your raid. But, if your BM DPS is on par with the rest of the raid DPS, you're fine.

[Mania]

I can see what you are saying, Anansi -- I may have misinterpreted the goal of the article. I don't think it was called out very well, though.

[Epicfail]

First of all, personal experience - I have recently tried all three with TOC/ICC gear and notice significant decreases moving from marks to BM. I usually run 6-7K dps (overall) in ICC as a marks hunter with a wolf (with much more on the volley fights of course). I went by the rotations on EJ for BM and got about 4-5k with a devilsaur. (That was blowing all cooldowns and dpsing the raid boss dummy in silvermoon for minute long intervals). Now, I will admit two things, (1) my BM rotation isn't as practiced as my marks and (2) its possible my gems/gear doesn't promote the right bonuses to my pet (I've been told AP > agi for BM and I'm all about the agi).

10% difference... Not quite sure about that. Nor am I seeing the whole Marks in greens being the same as BM in epics. I think people have come up with many reasons to promote their spec over that of another based on spreadsheets and personal experience. There might be a BM hunter that can give me a run for my money with comparable gear. I just know what I see on the meters, and no BM hunter's even come close.

I will only say this... 3k is not enough dps to raid TOC or ICC. I think 5k is closer to the minimum in those raids. We are capable of going well above that with the right gear, the right rotation and a hell of a lot of practice. With Marks I can hit 5k easily. With BM its a lot harder.

The contrast to this is, I really love the personability of hunters taming the pets they love and playing the way that suits them best. Thats why I dual spec . I can solo with my BM spec for fun and then raid hardcore with my wolf in marks. I will never raid in BM again until I know that I can perform the necessary minimum dps needed for us to move forward. Even at 6-7k, I will need to get more gear and practice harder to benefit my raid group more. Its about downing bosses when you raid, not how cool your pet is. Otherwise I'd not have the same cookie-cutter wolf following me around that every other raiding hunter has.

[Saturo]

What you are forgetting is rotation, correct gear, and overall experience. I saw a 10% difference when I did dummy tests, and I'm sticking with that. And no, I don't raid with my BM spec, it's only for soloing.

In response to getting kicked by the raid, just tell them that you have a good reason for coming along. Mana regen, and the raid DPS buff. You fill the same purpose as a retadin or a shammy. Letting the healers know of your kickass mana regen procs will most likely result in an outcry of "pls let hunter stay shes helping heals!".

Also, your pet can save the life of a healer, possibly the whole raid, with intimidation / freezing arrow combo. Never forget that. That wolf will get insta-killed, while your devilsaur can survive a hit or two. It shouldn't take longer than that for the tank or OT to rush in and deal with it.

[Epicfail]

What you are forgetting is rotation, correct gear, and overall experience. I saw a 10% difference when I did dummy tests, and I'm sticking with that. And no, I don't raid with my BM spec, it's only for soloing.

In response to getting kicked by the raid, just tell them that you have a good reason for coming along. Mana regen, and the raid DPS buff. You fill the same purpose as a retadin or a shammy. Letting the healers know of your kickass mana regen procs will most likely result in an outcry of "pls let hunter stay shes helping heals!".

Also, your pet can save the life of a healer, possibly the whole raid, with intimidation / freezing arrow combo. Never forget that. That wolf will get insta-killed, while your devilsaur can survive a hit or two. It shouldn't take longer than that for the tank or OT to rush in and deal with it.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I can't see a hunter of any spec replacing a paladin or shaman in raid. Hunting Party is in Surv, not BM (unless I am misunderstanding you) for the mana regen procs. Second of all, I rarely lose my wolf pet unless it somehow pulls agro from one of the grouped up mobs.

using http://www.femaledwarf.com

My Marks build + Wolf
DPS
Combined: 5690.38 100.00%
Hunter: 5195.52 91.30%
Pet: 494.87 8.70%

My BM build + Chimaera
DPS
Combined: 4475.86 100.00%
Hunter: 3373.03 75.36%
Pet: 1102.83 24.64%

That's a 1214.52 dps difference just looking at potential single target dps using the same gear. 10% only works if I was doing 12,145dps and this was the difference. Granted, I'm using a chimaera which isn't my devilsaur, but look at the percentages... Pet is doing ~25% total dps for BM whereas Marks its only doing 8.7%. If I do happen to lose my pet 5% of the time from random stuff, I still have the bulk of my ability to dps for the remainder of the fight minus "Howl" bonus.

That is just pure dps capacity. The DPS bonus (+3%dps to raid) is nice, but if your pet dies, you're immediately under dpsing, whether it takes two hits or not.

[Saturo]

I meant to send the pet in to grab aggro and temporarily offtank. And no, I'm not telling anyone to replace the shammies, those little guys are so cute with their heads in the ground. I would never go BM in a raid, and I wouldn't tell anyone to either. 10% is a pretty big difference. And I meant the pet crits mana regen thingie (don't know what it's called). That on is in BM.

[Gigglemonsta]

Comparing BM to greens is not accurate! With a good rotation and spec there's about 10% DPS difference, and on many fights you'll do better DPS then the MM or SV hunters.

^^ This.

I raid as BM, as its my alt, and I just <3 BM (didn't like the other specs when i tried). I also use a spirit beast, not a wolf or a devilsaur.

In 10 man ICC, im doing usually around 5.8kish single target, (It can get a lot higher depending on buffs etc). I am usually in the top 2-3 for damage done. It really has surprised my guild how BM can compete with Surv/Marks.

Im not gonna say BM is better, its not, the difference is truelly 10%. 10% of 7k dps, is 700 dps, so you can expect a BM hunter in comparable gear to do around 6.3k DPS. Nothing shabby indeed. It also depends on the fight, some fights favour BM, some dont.

VOA pugs are my favourite (along with ToC 10 mans). I always get whispers from Surv hunters in them going "ZOMG BM!! UR NOT GONNA DO GOOD DPS", only to annihilate them on the meter.

Player/Skill > Spec > Gear generally.

If you want to raid as BM, practise the rotation, and try it. It's not as far behind as most people think! Most of my guildies with hunter alts have all swapped them to BM after seeing my pretty Skoll charging in on fights, and my dps beating some of the mains around

Maybe its a reflection on my server, but I mostly pug on my hunter, and I'm usually the top DPS, even with better geared survival hunters around. I often get whispers going 'DAMN how do u do that DPS as BM?!"

[Epicfail]

Comparing BM to greens is not accurate! With a good rotation and spec there's about 10% DPS difference, and on many fights you'll do better DPS then the MM or SV hunters.

^^ This.

I raid as BM, as its my alt, and I just <3 BM (didn't like the other specs when i tried). I also use a spirit beast, not a wolf or a devilsaur.

In 10 man ICC, im doing usually around 5.8kish single target, (It can get a lot higher depending on buffs etc). I am usually in the top 2-3 for damage done. It really has surprised my guild how BM can compete with Surv/Marks.

Im not gonna say BM is better, its not, the difference is truelly 10%. 10% of 7k dps, is 700 dps, so you can expect a BM hunter in comparable gear to do around 6.3k DPS. Nothing shabby indeed. It also depends on the fight, some fights favour BM, some dont.

VOA pugs are my favourite (along with ToC 10 mans). I always get whispers from Surv hunters in them going "ZOMG BM!! UR NOT GONNA DO GOOD DPS", only to annihilate them on the meter.

Player/Skill > Spec > Gear generally.

If you want to raid as BM, practise the rotation, and try it. It's not as far behind as most people think! Most of my guildies with hunter alts have all swapped them to BM after seeing my pretty Skoll charging in on fights, and my dps beating some of the mains around

Maybe its a reflection on my server, but I mostly pug on my hunter, and I'm usually the top DPS, even with better geared survival hunters around. I often get whispers going 'DAMN how do u do that DPS as BM?!"

Heh. Gig, you know shadow priests are the most gimped spec/class out there for dps, but I had a shadow priest topping the charts at 9k and doing 80-90% overall damage. I agree with you that skill has a lot to do with it, but part of that skill is knowing your class and its strengths and using those strengths to dps with. That shapes what gear you get, how you gem and what abilties you use in what order. A severely good BM hunter in ICC gear can smoke some guys surv hunter alt in triumph badge epics and heroic/rep gear. And yes, I know a few hunters that have higher gear scores that pull half my dps and do a third of my damage overall in a raid. Many people play hunters, but there's a very real skill gap between those who can and those who don't try hard enough.

What I am trying to say is based on the charts, MM > Surv > BM if all other things are equal. Skilled hunters are too few and far between to state that a BM hunter can be competitive as a rule. Skill always trumps the rule. Think how great your dps could be if you rolled MM... add a few k to your top end, for certainty.

[Gigglemonsta]

Giggle.

I know that if I went MM, I would probably be worse, as I'm so used to BM it would take me a long time to learn the rotation lol.

All in All, I want to raid BM, its my preferred spec, and it's only my alt, so as long as I do enough DPS to be competitive I'm happy I actually like being the underdog who surprises people

When I was freshly 80 in crafted/a few heroic epics, I tried survival, and actually saw a DPS decrease.

I do agree that Marks > Surv > BM for raiding dps, I just think people are better off playing what they want to play, and people will often perform their best in the spec they enjoy, with the rotation they prefer. Ultimately its only a 10% DPS difference between the top hunter specs and BM, which is not as much of a brickwall as most people think.

[Tahlian]

Given the request made by Mania in the first post of this thread...all I can say is this:


Frostheim, I respectfully disagree.

I can and I do raid as a beast master, and I do damn well at it. Yes, the spec is by far more gear-dependent than Marks or Survival, and yes I have to work harder to make sure I properly manage every single cooldown I have. I have to bring the "A" game on the first trash pull that everyone else might only pull out on the last 15 seconds of a boss kill. I accept these things....because I LIKE raiding and playing BM.

As to the "why not spec in a way to meet your 'maximum potential?' Because I've tried Marks and Survival both...and hated them. Loathed them and their playstyle with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. And if I have to spend three hours twice a week loathing the spec I'm playing, loathing the character I'm on because of it...why should I raid at all? Seems rather counterproductive to me, and not a way I should be playing a game I play for happyfuntiems.

But I am in a raid that is fine with my spec, even if I don't happen to be bringing a completely unique party buff. And somehow, against all the theorycrafting, against all the conventional wisdom - my DPS is just fine, thank you. In point of fact, the Survival hunter that's in the raid with me was saying last night that she's thinking about going beast mastery because of how often I smoke her on the meters. I politely pointed out at that point that BM is not a spec for the faint of heart.

But in brief...I've said it before and I'll say it again. Beast Mastery can raid. It's not the simple road, it's not the easy road. But it can be done, and done well. And unless someone can link me a blue post that categorically states that somehow Arthas' loot table degrades if my raid doesn't min-max itself to death to be able to kill him ASAP...I think my group will be okay with there being a devilsaur chewing on the Lich King's butt when we get there.

[Anansi]

Tahlian makes an excellent point, and that point basically being that while BM has the reputation of being the easiest spec to play, it is actually very challenging to play. I was BM for ages on all my Hunters, but when the 3.0.8 nerf hit I went to Marks. And what I found was that I really sucked at playing BM. After years in the spec, I found that I was terrible at it as I had never tried the other trees for comparison.

I did neglect to mention this crucial detail in my previous post as I was speaking in general terms and ignoring specific player capabilities. I fully agree that a very well-played BM Hunter can raid but well-played BM Hunters are a very rare breed. Generally speaking, a Hunter will bring more DPS in Marks or SV simply due to the harder hitting nature of the spec and less reliance on the pet. The facts are the most Hunters (and I totally include myself here) have pretty shoddy pet control ability. If you cannot manage your pet with impeccable skill, you will do badly as BM, thus most Hunters will do badly at raiding as BM.
A BM raiding Hunter must not only control their pet very well but also their cooldowns, effectively doubling the work load and splitting your attention.

I love that people can raid well as BM, I wish I saw more of them.

[Epicfail]

I have to admit, I just glanced through the article before, but upon actually reading it again, I have to say I really agree with him... He hits some good points.

I understand your perspective from a certain light, but I don't like hunters running around without pants. I'm completely against this and think certain laws should be passed that pantless hunters be banned from all raids. I also have a thing about +str weapons on the backs of hunters, but that's a gripe for another time.

Long of the short of it, play the class and spec you want to. If you get booted from a raid because you are BM without proving yourself, thats a shame. If you get booted because they need 5k and you do 3k, then you might want to do some research and change your spec to surv. If you do 10K with all BIS hunter gear as a BM hunter, great but if you ever need to squeeze a few more K worth of dps, you know what you need to do. A hunter of that caliber shouldn't have any trouble learning the spec necessary for maximum dps.

Progressive raiders generally don't have the luxury of being sentimental about their specs. They learn what they have to, practice it and spec/gear/gem/etc appropriately. They watch boss fights several times before going into a raid and learn the exact instructions necessary for their raid to down the boss. It is, in fact, rocket surgury for the progressive folks. The very thought of someone choosing the least optimal spec to raid with, regardless of how good they are at it, is at best irritating if not a downright insult to whatever raid they are in.

If you still want to make a case for BM hunters at top end raiding, post a few records off the http://www.worldoflogs.com website of BM hunters topping the charts. I haven't seen one yet, but I haven't done a ton of research from the BM angle. If you truly believe that BM is a viable spec for the best of endgame raiding, make a guide and inform everyone on the how-tos. Maybe then, with enough people following your advice and climbing the charts will people's faith in the spec be renewed.

[bloodysam]

Well to me Survival is Raiding spec and my BM is my look it my Boss Pet and questing and other stuff like that i was BM up till 80 because plp said there was a big difference and to be honest i can see it my friend on my server we go together in alot raids/Heroic and we have the same gear ex that i don't have the dang Crossbow out of PoS i still have the True Aim Long Rifle and i was over about 800-1000 Dps more then him when he was in BM and i was in Survival....

[Gigglemonsta]

Giggle.

Had one of them moments last night. ToC25 pug. 5 hunters, 2 marks, 2 surv, and me as BM.

Two of the other hunters were in full ICC gear and looked scary :S I pulled an average of around 6.3kdpsish, and murdered them all in damage done. No one could understand.

Thats what I love. Being BM, and making people go LOLWAT how did he just beat me AND get to use a cool pet!

WHAT IS THIS I DONT EVEN..

[Dulanie]

In my experience all classes and specs are raid viable. Some are just greater prefered because of the difficulty level of the class/spec combo. i.e. frost mages in MC, ele shamans in raids, blood DKs, etc...

[Kalliope]

Oh wow, I missed this thread.

I'm going to point out right here that I disagree with the ICC fights he's using for evidence. ALL THREE FIGHTS ARE GIMMICK FIGHTS. Marrowgar, Lady Deathwhisper, and Festergut ALL have mechanics that will RNG a dps out of the fight for a few seconds, messing with cooldowns, etc. Surv and marks both have multiple shots that keep going during interrupts like that, whereas BM just has serpent sting (although the pet can still attack, so I SUPPOSE it breaks even).

Let's also assume that the hardcore raiders are going to be one of the other two specs, which means that the BM numbers being put up are likely from less progressed guilds (where a BM hunter would actually be allowed to raid) and/or from players who are less likely to be min/maxing masters (because if they were, they wouldn't be BM in the first place).

Be that as it may, the reason the hardcore raiders aren't BM at the moment is because fights in raids currently simply do not favor BM hunters. There's a lot of movement and lots of things that can and will kill pets if you're not careful (especially devilsaurs with overly large hitboxes).

BM *is* behind the other two specs in terms of raw damage output, but this guy isn't backing up this fact with the correct sources.

As a few of our hunters have already pointed out, they CAN beat the pants off other hunters in the other specs because THEY KNOW HOW TO PLAY. Having ICC gear doesn't make you a good hunter; you could have been carried and are underperforming for your gear level! This guy's point is better put as "BM hunters can put up decent numbers, but they'd be putting up BETTER numbers if they were another spec, so I wouldn't take the BM hunters to a raid if I had the choice."

I guess what it boils down to is....he's making a point that has already been made and hasn't really added anything to the argument.

More power to you if you can get through ICC as BM, IMO. Sure, you COULD be doing more damage as another spec, but so what? As long as your raid isn't short on dps, who cares? It's like healing: it doesn't matter who wins the healing meters, so long as people aren't dying.

BTW...

I was surprised by the conclusions of the article, especially the last couple of paragraphs in which BM raiders are compared to players in all green equipment. I didn't think there was that big a difference!

I can see how you misread this, Mania, but the original poster is referring to green quality GEMS, not green gear. There's a considerable difference between green quality gems and epic quality gems, but not QUITE as big a difference as there would be between green gear and epic gear! xD

[Vephriel]

Interestingly enough, today's Scattered Shots article focuses on soloing things, and therefore is all about BM.

I can't help but wonder if this is an apology of sorts for bashing BM the last time, showing the versatility of the spec when used in other situations. It certainly does a great job of highlighting it's unique attributes and even makes me want to attempt some of these crazy things one day. xD

http://www.wow.com/2010/02/15/scattered ... e-soloing/