Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by SpiritBinder »

PorrasouxRex wrote: Going by the Elemental theme again, we have Core Hounds, Terrorpene, and probably Fiery versions of certain families next patch. Why wouldn't Phoenixes be an option if not only are Fire Hawks swarming the place, but also Blaze Wing circling the area as a great chance for the BC model to become a rare skin?
Oh you a defiantly right, the line between beast and elemental is getting stretched further and further all the time, no doubt about that. There are also the fire/magma tarantulas and scorpids also.

I guess my main ponderous thoughts would be that the current phoenix model was originally designed and derived from the blood elf mage unit in WC3 as an ultimate spell. (hence Kael has always had such an affinity with them, it was his spell) Due to the sam wises design they also never had an legs or feet to speak of. They were actually summoned and they would slowly burn and consume themselves til death, only to spawn and egg and be reborn a short time later.

Maybe it's just all the lore attached to them that imo makes it a little less likely a candidate, I'm not sure. That said, I would not complain if they were made into a model, in fact I would love it just as much as you :D

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Chimera »

Ive always seen silithids as bugs that belong to a very sentient empire of great and much more evolved bug-creatures, i dont see them at all as a oddity but, thats just me :3 dont get me wrong at all, id love phoenixes as much as you, im a huge fan of em ive just been seeing a long trend with blizzard on their outlooks on things that are just too bizzare for the beast family

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by SpiritBinder »

Wain wrote: It's a matter of them deciding in the creature is still "beastly" enough to class as a tamable beast, regardless of its composition.
Thanks Wain, that's pretty much what I was trying to say but couldn't quite put my finger on it ;)

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by PorrasouxRex »

Spiritbinder wrote:
PorrasouxRex wrote: Going by the Elemental theme again, we have Core Hounds, Terrorpene, and probably Fiery versions of certain families next patch. Why wouldn't Phoenixes be an option if not only are Fire Hawks swarming the place, but also Blaze Wing circling the area as a great chance for the BC model to become a rare skin?
Oh you a defiantly right, the line between beast and elemental is getting stretched further and further all the time, no doubt about that. There are also the fire/magma tarantulas and scorpids also.

I guess my main ponderous thoughts would be that the current phoenix model was originally designed and derived from the blood elf mage unit in WC3 as an ultimate spell. (hence Kael has always had such an affinity with them, it was his spell) Due to the sam wises design they also never had an legs or feet to speak of. They were actually summoned and they would slowly burn and consume themselves til death, only to spawn and egg and be reborn a short time later.

Maybe it's just all the lore attached to them that imo makes it a little less likely a candidate, I'm not sure. That said, I would not complain if they were made into a model, in fact I would love it just as much as you :D
Ah yes, I remember that spell even today. :P But I'm not just talking about the BC Phoenixes, of course. I mean, you could argue that even if that may be true, why is Blazewing flying around like it's nobody's business? shouldn't he be committing mass suicide over and over at random targets? And not all Phoenixes were from a spell. Those spells like the Belf mage and Kael, was them simply summoning these great beasts from the Firelands. We have now broken that barrier and are looking first-hand at where these guys really come from in the first place. Sure, the mages can summon. But now that we can explore this strange fiery landscape, we could find and command a Phoenix if we come face-to-face with one.
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

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Xakaal wrote:Ive always seen silithids as bugs that belong to a very sentient empire of great and much more evolved bug-creatures, i dont see them at all as a oddity but, thats just me :3 dont get me wrong at all, id love phoenixes as much as you, im a huge fan of em ive just been seeing a long trend with blizzard on their outlooks on things that are just too bizzare for the beast family
Yeah, silithids are more like smart beasts and less sentient. Perhaps more of a hive intelligence like bees and ants. The Aqir (Qiraji and Nerubians) were made from them by the Old Gods. It's easy to confuse the smart bugs with the sentient Qiraji.
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Yoruko »

Spiritbinder wrote: As for Phoenixes becoming a tamable family..... I'm not too sure. But something similar...? say fire birds (a good friend suggested this) maybe not too far off. Within the new fireland coming in 4.2 there are fire hawks seemingly occupying the area.
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As much as these do look elemental, they look a little more "beastly" than the current Phoenixes in game, but that's IMO ;)
I think we would have a great opportunity here for that one spirit beast that doesn't take hours upon hours camping just to get? ;) I for one wouldn't mind if the more "casual" players were given a chance at a spirit beast that can be just picked up.
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Lisaara »

People have asked about the sentience of the Phoenix. While I'm trying to find some solid info(not many talk about the Phoenix in such a light), I did find that in the Harry Potter universe, the Phoenix is considered a sentient creature, which I thought was a neat tidbit even if it's not that solid cause it's a totally different universe.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenix

I'm pretty sure why the sentience isn't heavily looked upon cause most Phoenix 'figures' tend to be that of a demi-god or 'god' stature or symbol of sorts so people assume it is sentient for that reason usually and don't go into much detail. I know in a few comics the Phoenix was considered a sentient entity with telepathy.

Now as for WoW's phoenixes, they could have a twist on it but.....all the Phoenixes in-game are considered elemental so....that's probably where they will stay. I think even A'lar is considered elemental(I could be wrong about that. I've never seen him myself so if that needs correcting, please do say so and I apologize!). Hunter's typically don't take elemental creatures. If anything this seems to be something more of a Mage or Shaman would take upon.

EDIT: I texted KGB to get a little help with the research and they too say the Phoenix is indeed a sentient creature.
(here's what they said)
"Apologies. Phoenix, the mythological creature, is indeed Sentient. A Phoenix is a fire spirit bird with a colorful plumage and a tail of gold and scarlet."
Last edited by Lisaara on Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Cerele »

the new pheonix (pluar how ever you make it) are just reskinned protodrakes... and reason we cant tame them is their model is too big, im fine with pheonix's not becoming a pet as long as i get my hydra soon =P
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Lisaara »

Cerele wrote:the new pheonix (pluar how ever you make it) are just reskinned protodrakes... and reason we cant tame them is their model is too big, im fine with pheonix's not becoming a pet as long as i get my hydra soon =P
And yeah, theres that. Protodrake skelly is a tad too big and it'd be walkin funny.

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

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Jessibelle wrote: EDIT: I texted KGB to get a little help with the research and they too say the Phoenix is indeed a sentient creature.
(here's what they said)
"Apologies. Phoenix, the mythological creature, is indeed Sentient. A Phoenix is a fire spirit bird with a colorful plumage and a tail of gold and scarlet."
I don't believe some other author's modern fantasy universe should ever be used as evidence of anything outside their own creation. :/

I'm curious who this 'KGB' is who you named, however. I don't recognize the source.

Phoenixes in the original mythologies, from the near to the far east, vary somewhat in their description and nature, as one might expect. In many they are just birds with a special magical ability. In others they show signs of sentient behaviour, which isn't uncommon with special creatures in different myths. But there is certainly no common thread of sentience.

But even if they were commonly sentient in original myths, it would have no bearing on their nature in WoW. "Unicorns" here, for example, are nothing more than horned equine beasts. A number of creatures with mythical names in WoW bear only passing physical resemblance to those in the myths. Indeed this is true of phoenixes, which are ablaze all the time in the game, but only burnt up at the time of their death in most myths.

Perhaps they will stay as elementals. Perhaps they'll always remain untameable. But I still see no compelling evidence why they must.
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Ikutai »

KGB is the Knowledge Generation Bureau. It's a private company whose sole purpose is to answer questions asked by people via text message.

You text them a question (no matter how weird, random, or obscure) and they'll set someone (referred to as a KGB Agent) to answering it. And timely too.

It's quite the cool service, Wain.

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Rikaku »

Jessibelle wrote:Phoenixes are legendary creatures and I believe are sentient. So much like Dragons, it's not gonna happen because they're self-aware. It'd be like trying to tame a druid. This discussion has come up several times.
Sentience shouldn't be an issue. I mean we can tame Loque'nahak, whose title is "Mate of Har'koa". We already know Har'koa is VERY sentient. As a troll god, Har'koa's mate is probably sentient too; they're both using the leopard god model.... sooo if we can tame Loque, I don't see why we can't tame a phoenix.

But you know, I think discussing a MYTHOLOGICAL creature's sentience is kinda moot, isn't it? It's fantasy, it's not something anyone can be "right or wrong" on. That's why it's called Fantasy, it just depends on which version/who created it/etcetc... Just because some people believe a Phoenix is sentient doesn't mean all people do. XD

I would freaking kill for a model like Blazewing or Alar to become tamable. Or at least those sweet firehawks from the 4.2 patch. Man, I would love to have a bird pet I actually would use.

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by PorrasouxRex »

Jessibelle wrote:
Cerele wrote:the new pheonix (pluar how ever you make it) are just reskinned protodrakes... and reason we cant tame them is their model is too big, im fine with pheonix's not becoming a pet as long as i get my hydra soon =P
And yeah, theres that. Protodrake skelly is a tad too big and it'd be walkin funny.
Look at Chimaeras. Their wingspan is massive even at the shrunk size. Obviously the boss wasps were going a little too far with "Big pets" But I'm sure they could find a way. They could also just keep it at the flying animation instead of the ground. Perhaps on the ground when standing still, but in flight when moving like some Drake NPCs.
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Lisaara »

@Wain - Thats why I said it probably wouldn't help but it was a neat tidbit to know.

@Ikutai - Thank you. They are a neat little service and provide excellent information.

@Rikaku - Just because Har'koa is sentient doesn't mean her mate is. Considering he's tameable, he's probably not. He's a beast that just needed to follow some instinct and Har'koa needed someone to tango with so kittens can be made. Nature takes it's course from there.

@Rex - Chimaera's use an entirely smaller and much different skeleton than those fire birds in the video. Chimaera's use the Wyvern skeleton, which again, are significantly smaller than the Protodrake Skeleton. That's like comparing a grape to a grapefruit, I'm afraid. ^^; Such a massive size that protodrakes have would be really hard to shrink down to something more appropriate. Even when flying, their wings would still go through our heads and it would be in the way. I'm pretty sure thats gonna be another major reason they aren't tameable. All in all, while one thing may work for one pet, it wont work for all pets.

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by PorrasouxRex »

Ikutai wrote:KGB is the Knowledge Generation Bureau. It's a private company whose sole purpose is to answer questions asked by people via text message.

You text them a question (no matter how weird, random, or obscure) and they'll set someone (referred to as a KGB Agent) to answering it. And timely too.

It's quite the cool service, Wain.
But this "KGB" doesn't have an answer for every Phoenix in every known universe. Or every Phoenix in the game. I've read or watched different Phoenixes from alot of tales and legends in books and movies. Also, for a Sentient bird they sure allow themselves to be summoned to blast foes with their own bodies to ash. Why can't hunters tame them to serve us, only not to kill themselves? I still don't understand why we're going on the whole "Hunters can't tame Elementals" when we've fair stretched the line of what hunters "Can't" tame. Chromaggus was a biiiiig start on Dragonkin. Plus the fact Core Hounds and Terrorpene (Yes, I love using those as examples) are nothing more but fire and stone shaped into a living beast. The Phoenix is nothing more than a rare bird with fire as it's body.

And another thing, if taming an Elemental is such a bad thing, why are we riding them? Why are we riding a bird of fire? Shouldn't we be burning up? Should Shamans now get a class mount that is a Stone or Fire Elemental? ( I admit that would be pretty awesome) but still. Say that the bird is "Sentient" and whatever you'd like. But when it comes down to it it's up to Blizzard what we should and shouldn't tame anyway. Because so far hunters have defied the past arguements of "Hunters can't tame Undead" "Hunters can't tame this, tame that." You can say we aren't shamans or mages. But the truth is we aren't Death Knights or Warlocks ethier with Spirit Beasts and Demon dogs. But hey, look where we are now.
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by PorrasouxRex »

Jessibelle wrote:@Wain - Thats why I said it probably wouldn't help but it was a neat tidbit to know.

@Ikutai - Thank you. They are a neat little service and provide excellent information.

@Rikaku - Just because Har'koa is sentient doesn't mean her mate is. Considering he's tameable, he's probably not. He's a beast that just needed to follow some instinct and Har'koa needed someone to tango with so kittens can be made. Nature takes it's course from there.

@Rex - Chimaera's use an entirely smaller and much different skeleton than those fire birds in the video. Chimaera's use the Wyvern skeleton, which again, are significantly smaller than the Protodrake Skeleton. That's like comparing a grape to a grapefruit, I'm afraid. ^^; Such a massive size that protodrakes have would be really hard to shrink down to something more appropriate. Even when flying, their wings would still go through our heads and it would be in the way. I'm pretty sure thats gonna be another major reason they aren't tameable. All in all, while one thing may work for one pet, it wont work for all pets.
Blizzard has proven they can shrink a rather large size into something that can work more than once. Even if the Chimaera has a smaller body, I was just using the whole "Wow wings in my way" as an example. Heck, they left the boss wasps massive for 2 years in Wotlk. They were rather massive to begin with. Blizzard has surprised us alot of times when we went "Man, that thing will never work" but guess what, they made it work. Though, perhaps that's asking too much to try and fix it around the Proto-drake body, but it's a possibility. And besides, the Crimson Fire Hawks were just another suggestion for the family. You could just put the BC Phoenixes in. Their wings aren't "huge" at all.
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Lisaara »

@Rex - I know it's just a suggestion. I'm not saying I DON'T want them tameable. I'd die happy if they were, believe me! But I'm incredibly skeptical because of their sentience, their size, and the flying mount model they take after. And they had more important things to worry about than the wasp sizes. I had a boss wasp and....he was in my way....A LOT. I ended up getting rid of him. Blizzard saw this. They didn't ignore it. They had more pressing matters to worry about until recent. Boss wasps are tiny now like their counterparts. That proves they don't want us having giant pets like those birds. They even shrunk chimaeras and gave us a glyph of Lesser Proportion so the bigger pets would shrink.

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Cerele »

Jessibelle wrote:@Rex - I know it's just a suggestion. I'm not saying I DON'T want them tameable. I'd die happy if they were, believe me! But I'm incredibly skeptical because of their sentience, their size, and the flying mount model they take after. And they had more important things to worry about than the wasp sizes. I had a boss wasp and....he was in my way....A LOT. I ended up getting rid of him. Blizzard saw this. They didn't ignore it. They had more pressing matters to worry about until recent. Boss wasps are tiny now like their counterparts. That proves they don't want us having giant pets like those birds. They even shrunk chimaeras and gave us a glyph of Lesser Proportion so the bigger pets would shrink.

okay, first off if they shrink them sooo small they will look as akward as the Silthid Collusus, that thing doesnt look right as tiny as he is now, second thing if they make these protodrake body pheonix skinned animals tameable then throw in protodrakes as well, i know some in game cpu hunters have them but thats because they are mounts or kinda re roaming around its master, the model is not good for hunters if its shrunk to a decent size the thing would look so weird, not to mention it wouldnt be able to fly... have to do that bat like crawling everywhere,
HOWEVER if the blazwing model pheonix was tameable, there would be less issues as it is smaller and already decent pet sized...
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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Chimera »

theres baby protodrakes... theres even protodrake mini pets which are like 3 times tinier then the dragonkin classified hatchlings.. -shrug-

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Re: Phoenix Hunter pet suggestion

Unread post by Rikaku »

Jessibelle wrote: @Rikaku - Just because Har'koa is sentient doesn't mean her mate is. Considering he's tameable, he's probably not. He's a beast that just needed to follow some instinct and Har'koa needed someone to tango with so kittens can be made. Nature takes it's course from there.
Again, there's no 'right or wrong' to this whole debate. To me, Loque'nahak is sentient. No "normal" beast just glows with energy spewing out of his mouth and eyes. To you, he is just another animal that has natural instincts to mate, and that's fine and well. but it brings me back to the point that neither of us are right OR wrong. Unless Blizzard storywriters come into this forum and tell us "Phoenix are sentient in Warcraft" or "Loque'nahak is not sentient in Warcraft", neither of us can be 'right' about sentience in a universe we don't own XD

So I'm just gonna step out of this sentient debate methinks, cause I feel it's totally derailing from the actual topic.

Though, on the topic of animations. Didn't we have a bird pet that used to land once in awhile when the Hunter was idle? If the firehawks can be tamed, then maybe their idle animation is just standing on the ground (like Protodrakes), while when the hunter moves, the pet flies like normal flying pets. I don't see that being too hard to code. My cats never stand and yawn when they're in combat, so I'm sure the idle protodrake animation of the Firehawks can be worked into being a Hunter's pet.

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