A Proposition for Beast Mastery Pets

[Nanotrev]

Kinda defeats the purpose of the argument of having exotics sooner, especially since at low level dungeons, having an exotic pet wont change players that bite off more than they can chew, nor will it help any. You'll still die or barely survive.

The point is being able to provide the buffs to make things a little better. It's not to be that class, and if BM was so overpowered and the advantage over being another spec wasn't so marginal everyone would be BM. The point of this is, that it would help quite a bit but not be so insanely overpowered that people would stop rolling SV and MM to create another era of The Burning Crusade.

Going back to the point of low level dungeons, it's not to stop everyone from dying. It's to help keep people alive but not by so much that it becomes a must to have a BM hunter in your group. There really isn't a point to not giving BM hunters their BM specific pets earlier.

I must sadly agree, I don't think we should get our lil' exotics until we have our talent points. I loved leveling with my kitty cat! They have enough pets out there to ensure a player is able to level, yes the BM pets do have extra attacks and such and yes Blizzard could scale them for the lower levels but most the 'buffs' they bring, example the Core Hound can Bloodlust and a guildie got his Shaman to lv70 and he learnt Bloodlust (this might be incorrect and I have never had a shaman myself so I am not sure if that is the normal level or not for them to get it.)
It would cause some unblancing no matter which was you look at it.
"Oh I am lv15 and I can Bloodlust can you do that yet?"
Unless the BM pets attacks were only at lv 69. I never saw BM's signature to be the Pets. I saw it as the attacks we had like Beastral Wrath and Indimadtion. But I am also not jsut saying pets are pets nothing more, ofcourse pets matter to a BM since they are our damage dealers but I love how things work now and how they were back then to. I don't think Blizzard would go for that idea for a long time.

I'm not meaning to hurt feelings but I'm getting the vibe from a lot of the people here that their argument tends to be towards "I leveled with non-exotic X and I really like them and feel accomplished thus other people shouldn't get their exotics earlier and be made to work for it just as I did." I'm sure a lot of people had the same feelings when they leveled a pet from 34 to say 60. After that Blizzard made it so that they auto-level within 5 levels of the hunter, and then to within 3 levels of the hunter. Again, I'm not saying that this is what people mean yet it's a speculation of mine.

Edit-
To the above, I can see how one would feel about the example I just gave when it happened. I myself felt that other people were given a slice of a big cake I worked very hard to get my piece from yet someone who had never worked as hard as I did got a slice with a fraction of the effort. I'm just pointing this out so people know I've experienced the same thing but I felt that the auto-leveling to within three of the hunter would benefit all hunters in general and that this change with the BM pets would help out BM hunters quite a bit. For those of you who don't believe the pet is all that significant, try fending off someone without it on a PvP server. For Marks and Survival it's still crippling but not so much to the effect that it is for BM.

[lilatha]

Actully mines not, yes I said I loved my lil' kitty cat (c'mon ghost saber whats not to love!)
But if you read what I continued to say, it would become unblanced, and a Pet doesn't make the hunter it is our attacks Beastral Wrath and Indimadtion, I don't see a MM doing that or a SV?

[Lisaara]

Also you need to remember....Blizzard has said they want Cata to be challenging. Giving Exotics to lowbies = NOT challenging at all. That's just handing them a trophy without them actually having to do anything to get it.

Again I agree with the imbalance. It'd make BMs way OP at lower levels. Blizzard is trying very hard to avoid OP Classes.

[lilatha]

Yeah and c'mon we are getting pet's at lv1 which was a really nice idea as I remeber having to go melee alot. Just the BM pet's should stay with talents. It has been working so well so far I don't see the need to change it.

[Nanotrev]

As I said, the pets could be scaled back so that they wouldn't be so overpowered. If you compare class balance between specs today and scale it back so they're all even as they are now it wouldn't be an issue. I still remember fighting fighting another hunter who was MM in the lower levels and being destroyed because I didn't have Bestial Wrath yet when they froze my pet. Even now, I'm next to harmless when my pet is dead in PvP and PvE. Ghostcrawler mentioned our pets should contribute no more than 30% of our DPS as Beast Mastery hunters. This debate has swung rapidly from "it's too easy" towards "they would be overpowered." There are many more knobs developers could turn these days to insure we wouldn't become too overpowered. They can even tweak how significant pet abilities can be at certain levels.

Giving Exotics to lowbies = NOT challenging at all. That's just handing them a trophy without them actually having to do anything to get it.

We're back to debating if having exotic pets are a trophy or not. Because they would be scaled back to where they should be to merely giving missing buffs, and one buff at a time at that, they would marginally effect gameplay and merely help out people leveling in dungeons to get gear. Not everyone who plays WoW will have had an 80 to grind Justice Points beforehand. More people will be joining our ranks with Cataclysm and it's agreeable that they would need a hand because progression in dungeons will be even more steep and slippery than it is now, as I've explained.

Edit-

Also you need to remember....Blizzard has said they want Cata to be challenging.

They mentioned they wanted quests to be easier to understand and for them to flow better for lowbies. There are flight paths everywhere now in the Beta so lowbies don't have to run as far. Blizzard stated they wanted 80-85 to be more difficult and that they were buffing mobs from 65 and up to make them harder. It's a bad philosophy to make the earlier gameplay harder because it would deter people who were new to the game less inclined to continue paying $15 a month for a game they find hard and confusing. A friend of mine recently began playing WoW again because it was easier now at lower levels. Cataclysm will be challenging from about level sixty-five an onwards from there.

[Lisaara]

I'm quite content with how things are and I stand by my previous agreements and statements.

[Nanotrev]

It would be appreciated if further input would be contributed but I feel everything has been covered thus far.

[Ryai]

Kinda defeats the purpose of the argument of having exotics sooner, especially since at low level dungeons, having an exotic pet wont change players that bite off more than they can chew, nor will it help any. You'll still die or barely survive.

Actually. Yes, Yasindra being BM in a failed run for ToC DID save the group. Why? Because I had WORM- I mean, Sunscale. A Worm. With Wormquake. All the mastery I converted from haste and crit made him able to do 2-3k damage with Wormquake. Wormquake saved us because the healer AFKED without saying to EAT as the tank punted the event to the next fight, IE Paletress. Oh, did I also mention he ninjapulled the second group before doing so to boot?

It was just me and the tank against a crapload of Paletress's little minions. Oh wait you mean low level dungeons.

Actually yes it would help- I've saved many a bad run by being a hunter. All it takes is you know, the healer realizing Heal the pet and you can pretty much pet tank anything. Hell on the PTR I tanked an RFC run for a bunch of us PTR Test Guild lowbies with a fail bear. Think how much easier it'd be with a worm that can AoE?

Giving Exotics to lowbies = NOT challenging at all. That's just handing them a trophy without them actually having to do anything to get it.

Dear, with a 10 second beast tame that can be done down to 2/4 seconds with haste and with 25 stable slots, Exotics aren't challenging at all now. And frankly, I have gone into a slight depressive fit for my Dwarf who is stuck at 65 atm, because two of my fave pets are yep, Exotics and are stuck in her stable. There was nothing challenging about getting a Devilsaur or camping for Soriid at all. And I would like to use my pets again instead of slogging through 4 more levels without.


Anyways even Blizzard has basically admitted 'Intimidate is crap' and they were going to change it- I can't find the exact quote but it's somewhere in MMO. Meaning Intimidate is most likely being streamlined and we're going to get something else. And the reason why most people want exotics is well, I am sorry to say BM Is about the pets and the pets usually Are exotics. No you don't have to use exotics, but a BM benefits more from using an exotic pet. It is in effect like Explosive shot and Arcane shot for Survival Hunters. Surv hunters will almost always pick Explosive shot over Arcane shot, unless a situation calls for Arcane.

Blizzard has now given beast mastery hunters to finally have a reason to pic Exotics over Regular pets [outside of shiny skins].

I mean as of now there are loads of under 60 level exotics, having it as a mastery would be nice. And it would allow for 'Beast Mastery' talent to be fixed into something respectable. Like. Perhaps. A boost to Kill Command + 4 talents. Like, 'Your pets critical hits with Kill Command cause the target to bleed out for 4 seconds, dealing XX damage per second for those 4 seconds'. I mean honestly that screams beast mastery more than 'oh hur, you can now suddenly tame exotics! Good job!'

[Lisaara]

ToC is a terrible example considering thats either the dungeon or the raid in wotlk, and by the time you even get to random into it, you're already able to tame exotics. So not to sound mean but you're gonna have to get a better example than that.

[Ryai]

ToC is a terrible example considering thats either the dungeon or the raid in wotlk, and by the time you even get to random into it, you're already able to tame exotics. So not to sound mean but you're gonna have to get a better example than that.

Oh wait you mean low level dungeons.

Actually yes it would help- I've saved many a bad run by being a hunter. All it takes is you know, the healer realizing Heal the pet and you can pretty much pet tank anything. Hell on the PTR I tanked an RFC run for a bunch of us PTR Test Guild lowbies with a fail bear. Think how much easier it'd be with a worm that can AoE?

Seriously.

Dungeons are laughable as they are right now w/o spell scaling. All you would seriously need is a pet that can AoE at certain times and or a pet that can reduce damage [but by theory Cower should be available at what lv 20?]. I mean it would really make people have to use CC and realize AoE spam is bad half the time now.

I mean lately, my PETS tank better, than most tanks, low gear or high gear! And these weren't even tenacity pets when shit hit the fan, either.

[Lisaara]

And I'd like to know, not trying to sound snarky, what makes you think in every dungeon instance that this happens all the time? On my hunter, I've only had total fail moments where my pet had to tank cause the tank wasnt listening to me or the group maybe 4 times in the time shes leveled from 1 - 80.

If they ever lowered exotic pets availability, they may as well give all level 1 future BM hunters an exotic pet in their stable. :/

Sure, the worm aoe is alright but yanno what? My raptor tanked multiple mobs just fine with the right healer that was on their toes, plus me throwing multishot and mend pet up. I didn't need an exotic worm to do it and I personally don't feel it would've made it easier. Blizzard is already doing so much for us as hunters. There's really no reason to complain about anything cause they've catered to us in Cata. Working a few extra levels won't kill ya. I'm gonna do it just like everyone else. I will not complain cause I know a normal pet can be just as good as an exotic one.

With that in mind, I still stand by that I find lowering the ability to get exotic pets pointless because a normal pet is just as good as an exotic pet.

I'm noticing this debate seems to be "Well my exotic pet does this..." "Okay? So does my regular pet just as well." and well...we could go in circles really. So I suppose we'll have to settle on having differing opinions.

*jokingly ques the song 'anything you can do, i can do better'* xD

[lilatha]

Correct me if I am wrong but exotics only came in at the start of WoTLK?
SO if we managed all those low levels without them why do we need them now? I could go 1-80 without using one perfectly fine. Yes some of the BM only pets are great for tanking, but as a Hunter you shouldn't really be tanking in instances (silly tanks they need to hold their arggo better!)
But it still wouldn't be a balanced system Hunters getting class spells before the actully class learned them? Tiny bit odd don't ya think?
BM should never be all about our pets yeah they are our DPS but really? you want to be lv15 with a pet and then have people QQ that your over powered? Which means hunters would have to loose something else?
I know there are alot of people out their who play the game for different reasons, but the main goal by most is to enjoy the 'end of game' content. So why would Blizzard bother to much with the lowbies when they should be thinking about the level caps?
The only way they would maybe go for it is at lv60 you can use them, as lv60 was the first level cap and people will lock themselves there to enjoy old WoW (even though expac will change that) I knwo that may still seem unfair but when you actully think about it makes sence, I know Blizzard want to make the game more challenging in Cata since the past year it has been like /faceroll keyboard, but it still wouldn't make sence to give lowbie BM'ers exotics. All classes have things that they can't use in certain specc's and BM isn't just about the pet you use, its more about your specc as I said before, MM and SV can't BW like BM can they? Or use intimidation? Or do they also get a 15% AP buff to? Or do they get 4 extra points for their pets? No they don't I play BM for my specc not my pets. Yeah I got my wormie, my spirit beasts and my big green dino, my core hound and my lil' buggies and yeah I love em. But I would love them more still having to wait for my talent points to catch up I don't care if I have to go back to my starter zone to tame a pet, my falut for liking that model and it is my choice to go back and get them. Like I wouldn't mine if they were all lv1 and I had to level them up 1-80.
Just because BM needs their pet more then the other 2 specc's doesn't mean we should just get what we want. We have to work for them and be proud with our achivment to get to that level to be able to tame the pet.

I know it feels like I've just rambled on but meh I was up all night ... sue me :3
Also if I have came off 'mean' from any of this sorry for voicing my ideas.

[Lisaara]

You explained yourself just fine, Lilatha and I agree with you 100%.

[rackornar]

Correct me if I am wrong but exotics only came in at the start of WoTLK?
SO if we managed all those low levels without them why do we need them now? I could go 1-80 without using one perfectly fine.

I had to register just to comment on the argument against exotics at lower levels. The entire design of the game was changed with the recent go over to talent trees. You know what Elemental Shamans never had Thunderstorm until WoTLK but blizzard just gave it to them at level 10. Discipline Priests were handed Penance. Survival Hunters got Explosive Shot.. None of these abilities existed before WoTLK. While BM isn't just about the pet use it revolves around your pet being your main priority. Everything in the tree augments your pet or the synergy between you and them. While you find Intimidation or BW to be the signatures of the tree they both require a pet to use.

Also in no way does giving Exotic pets to BM hunters at level 10 make the game any less challenging. Our pets would gain extra talent points but it wouldn't be super OP. Exotic pets simply gain one extra ability compared to others. I highly doubt the extra stamina from a silithid (which would scale down since every ability now scales with level) is going to unbalance the game or the AoE ability of a worm. I am not quite sure as to where we decided exotic pets were a trophy... they were just another 51 point talent much like Explosive Shot that are now readily available to any hunter choosing that tree at level 10.

I for one think its a great idea to have that talent be part of choosing the Beastmaster tree if not for the exotics you gain access to but also the talent points. It would be nice to have a signature somewhere on par with Explosive Shot that is offered to the other trees.

[Lisaara]

Correct me if I am wrong but exotics only came in at the start of WoTLK?
SO if we managed all those low levels without them why do we need them now? I could go 1-80 without using one perfectly fine.

It would be nice to have a signature somewhere on par with Chimera Shot/Explosive Shot that is offered to the other trees.

We do have a signature on par. It's called Beastial Wrath.

[Nanotrev]

SO if we managed all those low levels without them why do we need them now? I could go 1-80 without using one perfectly fine. Yes some of the BM only pets are great for tanking, but as a Hunter you shouldn't really be tanking in instances (silly tanks they need to hold their arggo better!)

It isn't the point that we're able to go without them, not to mention sometimes there are new tanks or tanks who are simply bad at tanking. I've tanked RFD with my Vile Sting because the tank kept wiping us. The warlock helped with his Void Walker.

But it still wouldn't be a balanced system Hunters getting class spells before the actully class learned them? Tiny bit odd don't ya think?

Learning how to tame Exotic beasts isn't a spell. It's a talent that provides more talent points to our pets and regarding when it should be provided is up to the developers. I'm merely suggesting that maybe it could be different. In regards to balance I've explained how Blizzard could balance it and it will be mentioned again below.

BM should never be all about our pets yeah they are our DPS but really? you want to be lv15 with a pet and then have people QQ that your over powered? Which means hunters would have to loose something else?

BM shouldn't be about pets? Despite this one of our best attacks is from out pet, which would be Kill Command. Bestial Wrath now only makes the pet immune to CC. As I've mentioned many times before, the pet buffs would be rolled back so that they're appropriate for the hunter's level and merely exist to be there in place of the missing class. A level twenty druid buff on a hunter of the same level isn't very overpowered as all classes are constantly buffing one another in a BG and even then it would be below level cap.

So why would Blizzard bother to much with the lowbies when they should be thinking about the level caps?

but it still wouldn't make sence to give lowbie BM'ers exotics.

Blizzard should think about lowbies because a game that's very difficult and hard to understand isn't very popular. WoW is popular because it's becoming easier to get into and learn how to play it while it progressively gets harder as you continue on. There is still no reason why lowbie hunters should not get exotic pets.

BM isn't just about the pet you use, its more about your specc as I said before, MM and SV can't BW like BM can they? Or use intimidation? Or do they also get a 15% AP buff to? Or do they get 4 extra points for their pets?

Everything you've just explained manipulates our pets in some way or another. Beast Mastery is about our further control and manipulation of our pets. No, SV and MM don't get any of the abilities or advantages you've just mentioned although every one of those benefits our pets. We ourselves don't benefit from Intimidation yet our pet uses it to pull aggro from us and stop our enemies from taking our range away. The 15% AP buff is mainly for our pets as well since AP is one of the stats to scale the best between hunter and pet. The four extra talent points Beast Mastery gives our pets is for our pet. No, Beast Mastery isn't just about the pet but the pet is probably the biggest component of what we do as Beast Masters. SV and MM still have quite a few tricks up their sleeve when their pet dies but a BM hunter is next to nothing without it.

Just because BM needs their pet more then the other 2 specc's doesn't mean we should just get what we want. We have to work for them and be proud with our achivment to get to that level to be able to tame the pet.

Once more it becomes a debate of if getting to tame exotics is a trophy to the hunter or not. We honestly don't have to work at all for our exotics. We hit level 69 which would be perfectly normal for all the classes and get the talent. After that we go and tame an exotic beast for ten seconds and call it done. Having an exotic pet is only at the end of the talent tree because they haven't been scaled for levels below 69. Other than that I don't see any reason to why they're so far down in the tree other than the fact that having four extra talent points at 10 is a little beyond overpowered and thus perhaps the extra talent points for the pet should be a talent in the tree by themselves.

[Ariamodasu]

Personally? As much as exotics would be neat at lower so I could trundle off to try new models I'm curious about? I do NOT want it. At the very lowest I'd want 60 back as it made so much sense as an excitable glee talent for able to now get revenge on the stomp stomps that flattened you recently in Un''Goro. It's a talented reward for pursuing that spec kinda like Starfall killing me from the bloody thing glitching, your cake if you will just with less OH GOD IT PULLED THE NEXT ROOM AAAAAAH.

Encouragement to try a variety of skins to find what clicks, testing abilities and the hint of shiny later on clearly works. You get to learn different things and don't have something narfing huge taking up your screen as you're getting into the swing of it. One of my friends wants a Devilsaur which he's using as incentive to ding. My mother's stable is full of cats but she's seen some shiny she would like in the future when she gets there. Hell I have, I want a narfing white Chimera and the obligitory revenge on Devilsaur with the only thing bugging me is having to wait an extra 9 levels for it.

So while I'm waiting? Welp until a few days ago I've never had a Bear, Cat, Spider or many others I've tamed recently so it's making me try a few new things out while I'm hunting Barnabus. I'll happily keep chugging away towards my less death ridden shiny when I stop getting sidetracked by rare spawns.

[Lisaara]

Personally? As much as exotics would be neat at lower so I could trundle off to try new models I'm curious about? I do NOT want it. At the very lowest I'd want 60 back as it made so much sense as an excitable glee talent for able to now get revenge on the stomp stomps that flattened you recently in Un''Goro. It's a talented reward for pursuing that spec kinda like Starfall killing me from the bloody thing glitching, your cake if you will just with less OH GOD IT PULLED THE NEXT ROOM AAAAAAH.

Encouragement to try a variety of skins to find what clicks, testing abilities and the hint of shiny later on clearly works. You get to learn different things and don't have something narfing huge taking up your screen as you're getting into the swing of it. One of my friends wants a Devilsaur which he's using as incentive to ding. My mother's stable is full of cats but she's seen some shiny she would like in the future when she gets there. Hell I have, I want a narfing white Chimera and the obligitory revenge on Devilsaur with the only thing bugging me is having to wait an extra 9 levels for it.

So while I'm waiting? Welp until a few days ago I've never had a Bear, Cat, Spider or many others I've tamed recently so it's making me try a few new things out while I'm hunting Barnabus. I'll happily keep chugging away towards my less death ridden shiny when I stop getting sidetracked by rare spawns.

Lowering it back down to lvl 60 is fine. That I could be satisfied with but no lower than that.

[Kalliope]

For what it's worth, marks REALLY SUCKS with chimera stuck at 69 as well. So if BM sees a redesign, marks should see one too.

[Lisaara]

For what it's worth, marks REALLY SUCKS with chimera stuck at 69 as well. So if BM sees a redesign, marks should see one too.

Perhaps Blizzard should revamp the build to our special stuff is back to level 60 rather than 69.