Changes to Hunter Pet Families in 6.0

[Kurasu]

Chimera's ability causes a magic vulnerability as well as slowing, doesn't it?

[Arcanimus]

I may be behind the times (haven't been in beta much lately), but did sporebats get merged with a different family? I can't seem to find them in your spreadsheet

Fixed that. They may have been displaced when I was rearranging.

Chimera's ability causes a magic vulnerability as well as slowing, doesn't it?

No, magic (and physical) vulnerability have been removed as debuffs and generally been replaced with Multistrike buff.
The only outlier is Basilisk, who sneakily retains his Vulnerability debuff.

[Xella]

So I was going through the list of pets and what abilities they bring to try and plan out which five pets I'm going to cart around with me from 6.0 to WoD launch and I started coming up with a lot of weird inconsistencies in the way family abilities actually work. I made a post about it on the bug forums to try and get them a little bit more standardized (since nothing's quite like a pet having an "inferior" version of their family ability. I like my raptor a lot more but tallstriders' sunder is just SO MUCH BETTER for what I do ;_;) but the tl;dr is that a lot of the "existing" buffs still have cooldowns and things attached to them, whereas families with new spells do not and the pet just has an aura like... like sporebat (spell)haste is now, versus wolf howl and cat roar and so on.

For non-exotics, it looks like every Crit and Mastery pet has a 45s CD and there's only one spellpower non-exotic (serpents, with a whopping 90 second CD on their family ability). There's a 10s CD on bear stamina but no CD on goat stamina (bear stamina is also the only raid buff for non-exotics that still has the ability to turn autocast off). Sporebats and Wasps have a no CD haste buff but Hyenas' haste buff is 90 seconds(!!). Stats, Multistrike, and Versatility all seem pretty standard across the families (probably due to being new). Plus, there's the slow inconsistencies and as I'm starting to look at my exotic pets it's getting even worse—crocs, warp stalkers, and spiders all have a 6s 50% slow but crocs are on a 10s CD and require melee range, warp stalkers are on a 15s CD and have a 25y range, but spiders get the best of both worlds at 10s and 25y. And then my chimaera's froststorm breath is a FIVE second slow (-1s) with a THIRTY yard range (+5y) and a 10s CD (equal to spiders + crocs). Not to mention their multistrike buff isn't showing up in the pet tab of my spellbook (tho I am getting the benefit of it on my buff bar).

Pets are confusing :( Maybe I should go back and add exotics to my original post after all, haha. (Edit: okay all the exotic family raidbuffs seem to be working in the "ideal" way. Some even better than ideal because like, the waterstrider spellpower/crit aura is legitimately an aura and doesn't use a pet GCD the way the majority of the rest of the buffs do. Devilsaur mortal wounds is slightly worse than generic family mortal wounds, +2s CD and chimaeras are really weird with their slow but other than that, yeah. Good job, exotics :P)

[Arcanimus]

I'm mildly concerned by the over-representation of Versatility in normal pets, and under-representation of haste and mastery from exotics, as well as misplacement of Spellpower.

IMO, Dragonhawks and Basilisks should have Spellpower, Hydras should have Multistrike, and Serpents should have Haste. Spirit Beast should also pick up Haste, because it seems to be lacking an extra ability compared to other Exotics, discounting Spirit Walk, as its "clone source" family has it for free. On this same note, Devilsaur could easily pick up Mastery, as the "cannibalize" will have almost nil in terms of combat application, and probably serve more as a vanity or OoC heal effect, primarily due to adds' nature to despawn rapidly and its channeled nature (resulting in a loss of overall DPS).

I might just be overanalyzing it though.

[Xota]

I'm mildly concerned by the over-representation of Versatility in normal pets, and under-representation of haste and mastery from exotics, as well as misplacement of Spellpower.

IMO, Dragonhawks and Basilisks should have Spellpower, Hydras should have Multistrike, and Serpents should have Haste. Spirit Beast should also pick up Haste, because it seems to be lacking an extra ability compared to other Exotics, discounting Spirit Walk, as its "clone source" family has it for free. On this same note, Devilsaur could easily pick up Mastery, as the "cannibalize" will have almost nil in terms of combat application, and probably serve more as a vanity or OoC heal effect, primarily due to adds' nature to despawn rapidly and its channeled nature (resulting in a loss of overall DPS).

I might just be overanalyzing it though.

Devilsaurs' cannibalize looks like a soloing ability, instead of for raids or fast paced pvp. Quilen, Clefthoof, Corehound, Rylak, Shale Beast, Spirit Beast, and Water Strider all have an ability that would be useful for soloing, but not really raid oriented. (Silithid and Worm have pvp abilities, Chimaera has two pvp abilities). Cannibalize can freshen up your pet in between kills when chain pulling. Because of it seemingly being for soloing, I thought they could add back in the visual effect of Monstrous Bite (pre-cata). It used to increase your Devilsaur's size, and stacked (it was a damage increase ability instead of a mortal strike). Cannibalize could give your pet a stacking buff (3, 5, whatever) that only increased its size, and expired shortly after Cannibalize's cooldown cooled down. It would be like a minigame to get you Devilsaur to max size when soloing (and not easily maintained in raids or pvp, where a growing Devilsaur could become an eye sore). ... I just miss Harryhausen being enormous instead of the size of my raptor mount.

edit:
Good bug report Xella, looks very exhaustive pun intended. I really hope Chimaera's snare doesn't stay so superior to silithid, they're too big and flappy for my taste. And I didn't realize that Warp Stalkers' snare was ranged too. A 25 ranged 15 second CD vs a melee 10 second CD would be an interesting choice. The Spider / Chimaera non-choice isn't interesting.

[SpiritBinder]

They're still balancing pets for WoD so if you really feel that carrion birds will be under-utilized as they are currently, maybe they'll get them right before launch

The changes to pet families thread is probably a better place to discuss that further.

So, looking at Arcanimus awesome spread sheet and as mentioned, it would seem that the Spellpower Buff is not overly covered in non exotics compared to that of all the others. Though I'm not really sure that would suit a Carrion Birds theme all too much.
That said, Spore Bats could be a good candidate for Spellpower rather than the current Haste, and then the Haste could then be passed onto the Carrion Bird family?

Maybe something along the lines of... "The Quick and the Dead"... "1st in, best dressed"... "The early "carrion" bird, catches the worm"... etc.?

[Xella]

On a TOTALLY subjective point I would be very sad if sporebats moved to spellpower instead of haste, because it would be very hard for me to justify keeping Sporey in my "not purely for vanity purposes" spot (and so all my other pets without useful raid buffs/debuffs a la my warp stalker). I mean, it's hard for me to justify spell haste on its own but Sporey sits firmly entrenched in Call Pet 2 so it's not like I COULDN'T do it, but y'know ;P

On a marginally less opinionated point, I feel like one of the multistrike or versatility families could stand to pick up spellpower instead—basilisks, perhaps, given that they're not even technically providing multistrike currently (they still have CoE)? Alternately, swap the boar from versatility to stamina (as there are only two global families with sta) and then the carrion birds can pick up versatility instead.

I feel like crit shows up on far, far too many of the exotic pets even though it only shows up on four families and having three exotic families with multistrike seems "just right" for some reason. I feel like swapping one of the exotics' crit with haste or mastery (each only provided by one exotic family at present) would help balance that back out. (I still feel like rylaks are not distinct enough from chimaeras to warrant their own family and that's a whole other kettle of subjective fish so :x)

Then again, crit is on the middling-to-highish side of overall representation, with only multistrike and versatility having more families provide it. There are:

Crit: 6 families (wolf, raptor, devilsaur, quilen, shale spider, water strider)
Haste: 4 families (hyena, sporebat, wasp, rylak)
Mastery: 4 families (cat, hydra, tallstrider, spirit beast)
Multistrike: 6-7 families (bat, dragonhawk, wind serpent, chimaera, clefthoof, core hound, MAYBE basilisk once they get fixed?)
Spellpower: 3 families (serpent, silithid, water strider)
Stamina: 4 families (bear, goat, rylak, silithid)
Stats: 5 families (dog, gorilla, riverbeast, shale spider, worm)
Versatility: 7 families (bird of prey, boar, porcupine, ravager, stag, clefthoof, worm)
Mortal Wounds: 3-4 families (carrion bird, scorpid, devilsaur, MAYBE riverbeast? not in current beta build/with the riverbeasts I've tamed)
Battle Rez: 3 families (crane, moth, quilen)
Raid Haste: 2 families (nether ray, core hound)
Slow: 5 families (crocolisk, spider, warp stalker, chimaera, silithid)

[SpiritBinder]

On a TOTALLY subjective point I would be very sad if sporebats moved to spellpower instead of haste, because it would be very hard for me to justify keeping Sporey in my "not purely for vanity purposes" spot.

THIS, is a bit of a dilemma. Any pet that brings SpellPower alone, is never going to be a hunters best friends regarding optimal buffs (but potentially a raids best friend). I feel for serpents now too, this pet family now has been flipped into this basket of "Unfavorable" buffs for some.

But I also get it, someone has to be picked last for the dodgeball team, and it just sucks when it's your favorite pet. But lets be honest, every pet is going to be someones favorite too, so rock and hard place much? The only way around this that I can see, but then it's a little subjective, is if the Spellpower buff provided was rolled into another buff, like the Still Water ability of Water Strides does, with a single aura/ability?

Problem is I'm not sure what other to mix it with, as then it would potentially make this too powerful/preferred compared to any pet that just had the single perk. I would have just said mix it up with the Windserpent/Dragonhawks Magic debuff as that would kind of make sense, and then they could also have the same buff too, but that seems to be gone now, and mixing it with Multi Strike pets would make it be too strong? Maybe mix it with Mastery, or something else?

And sure, we one can just leave the "spellpower" buff pets as is, but then they seem to be lacking in the non exotic section, and if another pet was to have this buff instead, which would you give it too? Or if you were to mix it up with another ability, who what where and how do you make it balanced?


Regarding Sporebats though, ironically as of late when in groups, I've been asked if I have a Sporebat (Spell Haste) more than any other pet for it's buff as it seems to be missing the most. I always have one in my lineup as a staple now when in PvE Groups

[Xella]

MATH (god help me why). There are 10 classes with 3 specs each and one class with 4 specs. 34 specs in the game. Of those specs, five are tanks, 29 specs. Of the remaining, 14 are physical/melee and (in theory) do not benefit from spell haste or power, 15 specs (we're gonna ignore things like enhance or ret or survival potentially benefitting from spellpower for the purposes of this napkin math cos I've probably already miscounted somewhere haha). So, fifteen specs (healer+caster) who can benefit from spell haste on live and spellpower in 6.0 (six of which are healers).

Of those fifteen specs, only three of them provide spell haste on live (elemental, shadow, and balance). That means that in a 5-man group, you are guaranteed to have one person who can benefit from spell haste but cannot provide it (your healer) and two additional people who have a 9/23 (39%) each chance of benefitting from spell haste and a 3/9 chance (33%) chance of actually being able to provide it. So, 3/23 (13%) chance of one of your two dps (the two that aren't you as a hunter, that is) providing spell haste on live and 100% chance of it being useful to at least one party member. Those are pretty good odds for making a spell haste pet worth being one of your five call pet slots, imo.

But by that same logic, spellpower will likely be worth bringing too because of those 15 specs that benefit from spellpower (again, not including hybrid specs that may or may not actually benefit from spellpower on their abilities), only six of them will be bringing it (compared to 9 on live plus ofc you always run into that warlock or mage who has no idea where their buff button is :\). At least according to the buff/debuff guide on wowhead (no idea when it was last updated or how accurate it is these days), that's one of the least populated raid buffs:

Crit: 6 specs + 6 pets
Haste: 9 specs + 4 pets
Mastery: 8 specs + 4 pets
Multistrike: 8 specs + 6-7 pets
Spellpower: 6 specs + 3 pets
Stamina: 9 specs + 4 pets (+inscription)
Stats: 10 specs + 5 pets (+leatherworking)
Versatility: 9 specs + 7 pets
Mortal Wounds: 7 specs + 3-4 pets
Battle Rez: 10 specs + 3 pets
Raid Haste: 6 specs + 2 pets (+leatherworking)

So I mean, it's a hard sell for the solo-focused hunter to pick up a serpent but by the same logic a solo-focused hunter will never pick up a crane or moth either, since you can't battlerez yourself (well, you used to be able to if you were REALLY fast but I think that's not a thing anymore, haha).

I think merging spellpower in with another ability gets perilously close to BM hunters crying foul because even if it isn't PERSONALLY useful, exotic's new trick is that they provide like, three things (spellpower/crit/water walking, multistrike/thorns/heroism, etc). I think maybe the best place to do it would be in a pet that you'd be taking along for a different purpose anyway—if your crab or turtle or beetle had shield wall and spell power, it wouldn't be overpowered necessarily because the times you'd be utilizing spellpower are COMPLETELY different from when you'd be utilizing shield wall, with very few exceptions. Of course, none of those pets really feel spellpowery so maybe that's kind of a wash, but y'know :x

[Xota]

It depends on your normal raid comp, too. It's possible to either have spellpower not covered, or to have everything covered. And a solo-focused hunter can choose pets that they just like, and forgo a little min-maxing. By "can choose", I mean it's something that I know I've done, certainly not everyone would make that choice.

If it were down to carrion birds and sporebats getting haste or spellpower, I'd go with carrion birds and haste (because I like the "Quick and the Dead" pun) and sporebats with spellpower (because of all the glowy bits). Or just stick with carrion birds with mortal strike, it's not entirely useless (self heals in pvp, mobs sometimes have heals, etc), and the whole "forgo min-maxing" thing applies to them as well. Even though "Bloody Screech" isn't as good an ability name as "Quick and the Dead".

[Arcanimus]

I'm mildly concerned by the over-representation of Versatility in normal pets, and under-representation of haste and mastery from exotics, as well as misplacement of Spellpower.

IMO, Dragonhawks and Basilisks should have Spellpower, Hydras should have Multistrike, and Serpents should have Haste. Spirit Beast should also pick up Haste, because it seems to be lacking an extra ability compared to other Exotics, discounting Spirit Walk, as its "clone source" family has it for free. On this same note, Devilsaur could easily pick up Mastery, as the "cannibalize" will have almost nil in terms of combat application, and probably serve more as a vanity or OoC heal effect, primarily due to adds' nature to despawn rapidly and its channeled nature (resulting in a loss of overall DPS).

I might just be overanalyzing it though.

Devilsaurs' cannibalize looks like a soloing ability, instead of for raids or fast paced pvp. Quilen, Clefthoof, Corehound, Rylak, Shale Beast, Spirit Beast, and Water Strider all have an ability that would be useful for soloing, but not really raid oriented. (Silithid and Worm have pvp abilities, Chimaera has two pvp abilities). Cannibalize can freshen up your pet in between kills when chain pulling. Because of it seemingly being for soloing, I thought they could add back in the visual effect of Monstrous Bite (pre-cata). It used to increase your Devilsaur's size, and stacked (it was a damage increase ability instead of a mortal strike). Cannibalize could give your pet a stacking buff (3, 5, whatever) that only increased its size, and expired shortly after Cannibalize's cooldown cooled down. It would be like a minigame to get you Devilsaur to max size when soloing (and not easily maintained in raids or pvp, where a growing Devilsaur could become an eye sore). ... I just miss Harryhausen being enormous instead of the size of my raptor mount.

Problem is, in order for it to retain any usefulness as a soloing ability, not only would the boss have to a: spawn adds, but b: those adds would have to persist for more than the standard 1 second when dead. Even if these conditions are met, the ability still has a 1 min cooldown. It's not as bad as I previously thought, and isn't channeled, rather instant and applies a HoT/Energize, so it's not a massive DPS loss... But those are some really specific conditions when you also consider that they have to be either Humanoid or Beast, and be within 5 yards of the pet to be used for it.

HOWEVER... if these conditions can be met in a current-raid scenario, it'd net a significant damage increase. I'm working with a SimC expert to get the exact amount of increase right now.

As it stands, Shale Spider/Beast will hands down be best pet for soloing, as it has Shell Shield, Crit, and Stats. That's HUGE. (Assuming you don't need the self healing from Spirit Mend, should be maintainable with luck on getting Leech tertiaries.)

[Nachtwulf]

About the cooldowns on raid buffs. Even on pets that have a cooldown (I've run into a few on the beta), they do, but the buff itself stays up indefinitely, it doesn't fall off like it does in live. So even if it has a cooldown, it really doesn't seem to interfere with anything? I admit, I seem to recall running into pets I had to 'turn the buff on' manually, but that feels like a bug to me and I reported it as such, but I don't know if one candle in the darkness gets noticed. XD

[Xota]

Problem is, in order for it to retain any usefulness as a soloing ability, not only would the boss have to a: spawn adds, but b: those adds would have to persist for more than the standard 1 second when dead. Even if these conditions are met, the ability still has a 1 min cooldown. It's not as bad as I previously thought, and isn't channeled, rather instant and applies a HoT/Energize, so it's not a massive DPS loss... But those are some really specific conditions when you also consider that they have to be either Humanoid or Beast, and be within 5 yards of the pet to be used for it.

HOWEVER... if these conditions can be met in a current-raid scenario, it'd net a significant damage increase. I'm working with a SimC expert to get the exact amount of increase right now.

As it stands, Shale Spider/Beast will hands down be best pet for soloing, as it has Shell Shield, Crit, and Stats. That's HUGE. (Assuming you don't need the self healing from Spirit Mend, should be maintainable with luck on getting Leech tertiaries.)

I suspect the goal isn't for soloing abilities to have boss fight utility.

And (not speaking for all BM), I wouldn't cry foul if non-exotic pets stacked shell shield and spell power. It could make spellpower on an exotic seem underbalanced, but silithid is for pvp (not solo tanking), so I don't think 'turtlepower' or 'beetlejuice' or 'shpellfish' would take away from BMs' signature ability.

[Xella]

In build 19027 on the beta/ptr, basilisks no longer have Curse of Elements/Baleful Gaze. Hooray!

Unfortunately, they don't seem to have their multistrike buff either (or any OTHER buff/debuff/unique family ability, for that matter). So I guess fair warning, if you were gonna bring a basilisk as your preferred MS vector of choice tomorrow, you may want to reconsider because unless the build that goes live isn't actually the one that's on ptr/beta right now, basilisks will have the (unique) honor of not having anything but their cute scaly looks and occasional rare adorable death animation going for them, haha.

(Reported as a bug per usual, but just a heads up in case we've got any basilisk fans in the house ;x)

Edit: The riverbeast I had tamed from several builds ago (when I was double checking buffs and whatnot) no longer gives stats but now has the mortal wounds ability.

7:43 AM - Xella: oh nooooooooo
7:43 AM - Xella: riverbeasts bring mortal wounds now, not stats
7:43 AM - Naha: Eye of Kilrogg, game plz
7:43 AM - Naha: Aw
7:43 AM - Naha: But they bring sexy back
7:43 AM - Naha: So it's all good
7:44 AM - Xella: lol yeah but
7:44 AM - Xella: stats pets are dog, gorilla, and riverbeast
7:44 AM - Xella: minus riverbeast
7:44 AM - Xella: have you SEEN the models in this game that are available for dogs and gorillas? *gag*
7:44 AM - Naha: Yeah they're basically objectively the worst haha
7:44 AM - Naha: Stats is pretty much always covered though
7:45 AM - Xella: not when I'm on my own :( but yeah most of the buggs are pretty much always covered in our raids
7:45 AM - Xella: buggs? buffs w/e

[Nachtwulf]

Basilisks still have no family ability at all.

[Xota]

The St. Bernard model could potentially be a dog, but gorillas, ya. There's Pandaria and Northrend yeti, that could be a stepping off point for a new model for gorillas, but the ten year old ape model has not aged well.

[Mindsprocket]

Here's a list of all the pet abilities right now.

Raid Buffs:

Versatility increased by 3%
Birds of Prey – Tenacity
Boars – Indomitable
Porcupines – Defensive Quills
Ravagers – Chitinous Armor
Stags – Grace
Clefthooves – Wild Strength
Worms – Strength of the Earth

Mastery increased by X
Cats – Roar of Courage
Hydras – Keen Senses
Tallstriders - Plainswalking
Spirit Beasts – Spirit Beast Blessing

Multistrike Chance increased by 5 %
Bats – Sonic Focus
Dragonhawks – Spy Attacks
Wind Serpents – Breath of the Winds
Chimaeras – Duality
Core Hounds – Double Bite
Clefthooves – Wild Strength

Haste increased by 5 %
Hyenas – Cackling Howl
Sporebats – Energizing Spores
Wasps – Speed of the Swarm

Crit increased by 5 %
Raptors – Strength of the Pack
Wolves – Furious Howl
Devilsaurs – Terrifying Roar
Shale Spiders - Embrace of the Shale Spider
Water Striders – Still Water
Quilen – Fearless Roar

Spell power increased by 10 %
Serpent – Serpent’s Cunning
Silithids – Qiraji Fortitude
Water Striders – Still Water

Stamina increased by 10 %
Bears – Invigorating Roar
Goats – Sturdiness
Silithids – Quiraji Fortitude

Strength, Agility and Intellect increased by 5 %
Dogs – Bark of the Wild
Gorillas – Blessing of Kongs
Shale Spiders – Embrace of the Shale Spider
Worms – Strength of the Earth

Boodlust (haste increased by 30 % for 40 seconds)
Nether Rays – Ancient Hysteria
Core Hounds – Ancient Hysteria

Pet Tanking:

Pet takes 50 % less damage for 12 seconds
Beetles – Harden Carapace
Crabs – Harden Shell
Turtles – Shell Shield
Shale Spiders – Solid Shell

Spell Deflect
Direhorns – Reflective Armor Plating

Pet’s dodge chance increased by 30 % for 10 seconds
Foxes – Agile Reflexes
Monkeys – Primal Agility

Damage reduction & health regeneration
Quilen – Stone Armor (passive, below 40 % health the Quilen takes 30 % less damage and
regenerates 3 % of its maximum health each second for 8 seconds)

Debuffs:

Mortal Wounds (reduces effectiveness of healing)
Scorpids – Deadly Sting
Carrion Birds – Bloody Screech
Devilsaurs – Monstrous Bite

Miscellaneous:

Snares (target’s movement speed reduced by 50 % for 6 seconds)
Crocolisks – Ankle Crack
Spiders – Web Spray
Silithids – Tendon Rip
Chimaeras – Frost Breath

Battle Res (resurrects target with 60 % health and 20 % mana)
Cranes – Gift of Chi-Ji
Moths – Dust of Life
Quilen – Eternal Guardian

Stealth
Cats – Prowl
Spirit Beasts – Spirit Walk

Utility
Water Striders – Surface Trot (pet and hunter can walk on water for 10 minutes)

AoE Damage
Chimaeras – Froststorm Breath (channeled, deals X AoE frost damage)
Core Hounds – Molten Hide (passive, causes 1 fire damage to all melee attacks for 10 seconds)
Worms – Burrow Attack (deals X AoE nature damage over 8 seconds)

Healing
Devilsaurs – Feast (heals the devilsaur for 20 % of its max. health and restores 20 focus)
Spirit Beasts – Spirit Mend (heals target for X and an additional X over 10 seconds)

So far I've only checked all the tooltips and not tested what the abilities acutally do. It's possible that some of the tooltips are giving incorrect information. For example, the Core Hounds' Molten Hide is said to only cause *1* fire damage per melee attack which is of course ridiculously low. But I haven't checked yet if the ability is borked or if the tooltip just doesn't display it correctly.

Also, Basilisks still don't have any special ability at the moment.

Edit: Corrections.

[Rawr]

Shale Spiders have 5% crit not 3% Versatility.

[Mindsprocket]

Whoops, you're right. I overlooked the crit buff. But I didn't group them under the versatility buff? They do also have Blessing of Kings, thoug. Embrace of the Shale Spider includes both buffs.

[Rawr]

You grouped them wrong here

Strength, Agility and Intellect increased by 5 % and Versatility by 3 %
Dogs – Bark of the Wild
Gorillas – Blessing of Kongs
Shale Spiders – Embrace of the Shale Spider
Worms – Strength of the Earth