DK Worgens=Lore Quandry?

[Arwyn]

Its great that Blizz is given the two new races and players the oppurtunties to roll the Death Knight (DK) class. But lore wise, when looking at the Worgen doesn't having them being DKs mess their lore up?

Based on Lore when WOTLK begins the people of Gilneas are still locked behind the Grey Mane Wall with noone knowing what's happened to the people there.
But, unless Blizz has forseen this quandry and will find away to change it, after a DK Worgen completed the class quests and make their run through Storm Wind City to be accepted into the Alliance wouldn't people know before Cata what's occured to the people of Gilneas?

[Dulanie]

It could be that Wogen DKs are from one of the groups of Worgen found through out Azeroth. Such as the ones in Felwood, Duskwood, Grizzly Hills, and other areas.

[Jäysee]

They addressed this topic on the WoW Cata forums but Im just too lazy to go and find it.

[Saturo]

It could also just be human death knights that get infected with the curse while fighting the forsaken in silverpine.

Just my two coppers...

[SpiritBinder]

They addressed this topic on the WoW Cata forums but Im just too lazy to go and find it.

Found it.....

Quote from: Crygil (Source)
Hexe gives some compelling arguments about how a potential worgen death knights may occur (non Gilnean.) Of course, there is also the possibility that some small scouting parties of Gilnean worgen were captured by the Scourge, in and around the events that were the 3rd war. Not every battle or conquest of the Lich King is chronicled in the lore, nor would the capture of some small amount of worgen. Remember that none of the creatures we're talking about here are the original worgen conjured by the Scythe of Elune. These are all hybrids and, for the most part, humans. One would think that may just be a good enough reason for them to be able to rejoin with the Alliance.

To say that something is anathema to lore is tantamount to saying that something is entirely impossible and in a world full of dragons, demons, undead, and countless other magical wonders, it's good to keep an open mind. Just because you can't envision it, doesn't mean that someone else can't do so in a compelling way.

[Sarayana]

To say that something is anathema to lore is tantamount to saying that something is entirely impossible and in a world full of dragons, demons, undead, and countless other magical wonders, it's good to keep an open mind. Just because you can't envision it, doesn't mean that someone else can't do so in a compelling way.

That's gotta be my favourite blue quote ever!

[Arwyn]

They addressed this topic on the WoW Cata forums but Im just too lazy to go and find it.

Found it.....

Quote from: Crygil (Source)
Hexe gives some compelling arguments about how a potential worgen death knights may occur (non Gilnean.) Of course, there is also the possibility that some small scouting parties of Gilnean worgen were captured by the Scourge, in and around the events that were the 3rd war. Not every battle or conquest of the Lich King is chronicled in the lore, nor would the capture of some small amount of worgen. Remember that none of the creatures we're talking about here are the original worgen conjured by the Scythe of Elune. These are all hybrids and, for the most part, humans. One would think that may just be a good enough reason for them to be able to rejoin with the Alliance.

To say that something is anathema to lore is tantamount to saying that something is entirely impossible and in a world full of dragons, demons, undead, and countless other magical wonders, it's good to keep an open mind. Just because you can't envision it, doesn't mean that someone else can't do so in a compelling way.

Thanks for the find! And yes that is a great blue quote.

[VelkynKarma]

The whole Worgen-as-Alliance thing in general kinda bugs me, really. It seems a bit of a mess lore-wise, and Bliz is just kinda hand-waving it. But oh well...as the quote says, I guess anything can happen.

~VelkynKarma

[Saturo]

Yup, Blizz have really been messing up the lore for the alliance, both the Draenei and the Worgen.

At least Blood Elves and Goblins have a good explanation. I think the most messed up lore wise is the Forsaken tough. Shared with the Gnomes... I mean, seriously...

[Vephriel]

What makes you say that for the Forsaken? They're one of my favourite races. I understand some things had to be altered for game mechanics reasons (such as them no longer being able to speak common), but other than that what's wrong with their lore?

[Karathyriel]

Oh Veph, it's like this...
They are not only undead people, they have been part of the scourge.

Let me put it this way:
Someone knocks on my door, I open and what do I see? A zombie! So I slam the door, turn the key twice and start moving furniture in the direction of the door when I hear him saying "Alright, I gotta admit, brains are still my favorite dish but really, I'm harmless! Open up that door and let's be friends, OK?"
What do you think I'm gonna do?
a) answer him with both barrels of my shotgun right through the door
b) move away the furniture, open the door and tell him to have a seat while I am baking some cookies to go with the tea

I am a trusting person and I think every person deserves a second chance but somehow, a moldy, half-rotten walking corpse just doesn't fit in my definition of persons.

In other words: No one would let them join their faction if you think about it for a second. An open mind is a wonderful thing but Azeroth is, even if virtual, a world and at least some logic would be nice here and there. The Forsaken being part of the horde is not, at least in my opinion.

Did you know that they weren't planned as a playable race in beta? They were added because players wanted them so bad.

[Vephriel]

Mm, yeah I see what you're saying. Everyone knows that their alliance to the Horde is merely one of convenience. They share no real loyalty or fealty towards their faction. Thrall's aware of it, and even moreso now he's keeping a close eye on them. Still, in times of war you can use all the allies you can get, and I'm sure the Forsaken have traits and abilities that are useful to the Horde.

I find Forsaken as a race very compelling and pitiable.

They were once humans of Lordaeron, people who had lives and families. They were killed by the spreading plague, and became undead. Think of what it must be like...waking up inside a coffin, clawing your way out from the ground. You see people you recognize, perhaps your family, yet they scream at your appearance. You find you can no longer understand what they're saying, and as you try to talk to them they rise up against you and drive you out of town.

There's that one quest in Brill that always gets to me. An undead woman wants you to bring her some pelts and thread. The plague is slowly rotting her mind, and she can feel it leaving her. Despite the fear of becoming a mindless ghoul, she's determined to keep serving and doing what she can for the effort. She sews body bags for the fallen soldiers of Sylvanas' army. Her hands shake from the chill of undeath, so all she wants is the materials needed to fashion a blanket to keep her warm while she goes on with her sad, morbid task until she can no longer do it.

[Anansi]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Forsaken lore or their place in the Horde.

They were Humans, part of common society, and were killed. They became part of the mindless Scourge, enslaved and essentially damned, but they broke free and regained their will only to be shunned, hated and feared by their own (former) people.

The way I see it, the Forsaken are the embodiment of the dark side of the id, the parts the "decent" society Human psyche keeps locked down, controlled, the darker, evil desires that occasionally spark in all our minds. The Forsaken, being what they are in the position that they are in, have essentially said to heck with it, let's indulge, and so we have them as they are now.

I think they're actually one of the more compelling factions in the game.

[Vephriel]

I agree with you fully Anansi. I can empathize with their bitterness after everything they've been through, and I think they're definitely one of the more fascinating races.

[Arwyn]

The whole Worgen-as-Alliance thing in general kinda bugs me, really. It seems a bit of a mess lore-wise, and Bliz is just kinda hand-waving it. But oh well...as the quote says, I guess anything can happen.

~VelkynKarma

Having the Worgen join the Alliance was an interesting decision.

According to Wowwiki:

By the start of the Second War Gilneas was one of the most powerful human nations, and because of this, the kingdom's ruler, Genn Greymane, was not a strong supporter of the Alliance, believing that his own armies would be more than enough to deal with any threat. Despite this, Gilneas was not neutral towards the Horde, and did join the Alliance late in the Second War, although Lord Greymane constantly argued against its existence from beginning to end. He actually never supported the Lordaeron Alliance in the Second War.[2] Shortly after the Horde was defeated, Greymane pulled his nation's "support" from the Alliance, refusing to spend his nation's resources on keeping the orcs alive in internment camps or in rebuilding other nations devastated by the war. Greymane's isolationism may have been influenced by Daval Prestor, secretly the black dragon Deathwing in human form, who Greymane had supported to the throne of Alterac.

Sometime after the Second War, Greymane constructed the Greymane Wall — an enormous stone barrier that now separates Gilneas from Lordaeron.[4] Attempting to forever remove his nation from what he considered "other people's troubles", he barricaded Gilneas behind the wall.

Given that it looks like Greymane and the people of Gilneas didn't like anyone, in the face of the Worgen Curse if he and his people were desperate enough for a cure they could have just as easily sided with the Horde if they had offered it. Switching out the Tauren Druids for the Night Elf Druids. (And it also would give a good excuse for them retaining the Worgen form at all times and not just flip-flopping between a human form and worgen form just to enter battle.)

But then that would open up another can of worms because in flipping the factions what reason would the Goblins have for joining the Alliance? And also would it be fair to have two vertically challenged races playing in the same faction?

[Saturo]

What I meant was that the Forsaken have no real reason to be with the Horde, other than the "NEED MORE ALLIEZ!". Another thing, they are Scourge, not part of the Scourge, but still Scourge. They are openly distrustful of everyone else, and, tough not "affiliated" with the events at the Wrathgate, they are still developing their own Plague, which kills undead and living. Why anyone would want them as allies is... Weird...

And yes, I find it odd that they won't get common as a secondary language, but still, they had it in the original beta, it ended with people standing outside Stormwind yelling "alli sux!". Blood Elves I can understand more however, the Orcs have a great understanding about being addicted to fel energy. Ah well, there's some reason for the Forsaken to be in the Horde, I find it a bit weak.

On a different note, who more than me wants to kick the Orcs from the Horde!?

[Anansi]

What I meant was that the Forsaken have no real reason to be with the Horde, other than the "NEED MORE ALLIEZ!". Another thing, they are Scourge, not part of the Scourge, but still Scourge. They are openly distrustful of everyone else, and, tough not "affiliated" with the events at the Wrathgate, they are still developing their own Plague, which kills undead and living. Why anyone would want them as allies is... Weird...

I think you have to consider the progression of the Forsaken here. They essentially started out as an exiled people, on the run, feared and hunted by the Humans to whom the Forsaken once belonged. Of course they don't trust anyone, why would they? In their experience, the living have done nothing but try to exterminate them.
When they joined the Horde, the Horde did require allies as did the Forsaken, it was an alliance of convenience and for strength in numbers, not as a buddy-buddy alliance. Thrall is extremely altruistic and willing to give the benefit of the doubt, practically to a fault (and while this may be his greatest strength may also be his greatest weakness), so he supported the Forsaken being brought into the Horde. He probably doesn't trust the Forsaken very much either, but I do believe he trusts Sylvanas to keep them in check (hence the great surprise at the Wrathgate).

Now over time, the Forsaken have enjoyed their safety in the Horde and have grown in both strength and daring, not to mention ego. The Wrathgate betrayal shows this quite clearly. So there is a cultural progress in the Forsaken, from exiles to a strong force of their own.

As for the plague, well, the saying about keeping your friends close but your enemies closer may carry weight here. Thrall and other Horde leaders may not like the plague the Forsaken are developing, but as long as they are part of the Horde, it is less likely that the people of the Horde will be victim of the plague, or at least be lesser victims. This may be naive, but then Thrall is sometimes naive and again likely trusts Sylvanas to keep her people in line.

On a different note, who more than me wants to kick the Orcs from the Horde!?

If not for the Orcs there would be no Horde? Or at least no "new" Horde as it is today.
Considering the leader of the Horde is an Orc, and this will continue, I think the Orcs are staying put.
What I want is for the Trolls to get their own city, to retake their culture and begin to establish a new Troll civilization. They would still be Horde of course but essentially being ghettoised is such a shame.

[Vephriel]

I would love to see a Troll city for the sheer fact that I love their architecture. Most of what we see in game are ruins of past Troll civilizations, but a brand new city made would be amazing to see.

God I love Trolls.

[Anansi]

I would love to see a Troll city for the sheer fact that I love their architecture. Most of what we see in game are ruins of past Troll civilizations, but a brand new city made would be amazing to see.

God I love Trolls.

Oh lord yes. To see a functioning, populated Troll city would be the best thing ever. I'm with you Vephriel, the Troll architecture is astonishing (Zul'Drak is an incredible zone and questing there with Loque'Nehak was probably the most immersive WoW experience I've had) and to see a non-ruined city with shops and houses and city centres... Sigh.

I've read rumours of the Troll taking back Stranglethorn Vale in Cataclysm but that is probably just wishful thinking rather than anything with substance.

[Danielfboone]

The Forsaken are a very compelling race. They never wanted to be what they are and if allowed, would probably have joined the Alliance. The Humans, particularly the Paladins would have none of that and would actively and aggressively hunt them down. So as a matter of self preservation, they banded with the Horde. My first main toon was an Undead Warlock named Walmarticus. He has been reincarnated 3 times but has never gotten past level 28.

Trolls I don't really care about that much. They're just too vicious. The females probably eat their mates afterwards like spiders. I did have a Troll Shaman once though named Tuskankhamun.