When they say pass, you say?

[FlightofthePhoenix]

I have a question. I've been encountering people- shamans, druids, hunters- that have been upset that they can't need roll on certain items like cloth or leather and request that we pass so they can get them. My comment is to point them in the right direction for gear for their class. I feel like it falls on deaf ears. They insist that they can't find good gear at that gear type and get the cloth for the intelligence or the spellpower or whatever. So many hunters I've seen at my level in leather. Do I humor them, or respond in a dry, cutting humor that is typical for me? Or vote kick for staggering stupidity? Responses appreciated.

[Ryai]

I have a question. I've been encountering people- shamans, druids, hunters- that have been upset that they can't need roll on certain items like cloth or leather and request that we pass so they can get them. My comment is to point them in the right direction for gear for their class. I feel like it falls on deaf ears. They insist that they can't find good gear at that gear type and get the cloth for the intelligence or the spellpower or whatever. So many hunters I've seen at my level in leather. Do I humor them, or respond in a dry, cutting humor that is typical for me? Or vote kick for staggering stupidity? Responses appreciated.

Ok maybe you should actually see it from their PoV. You know balance droods? They're having to roll on cloth. YES. CLOTH, my friend says the only boot upgrade she's been able to get since a HC a while ago, OUTSIDE a raid? Are cloth boots from I think FoS or PoS. So I'm sorry but just saying Plz go here to maybe get a chance for an upgrade kinda would fall on deaf ears for me too- and I've rolled for an item that wasn't for me but I've been able to use it just fine on Ryai, and it'll last until I can force myself to sit around for 75 marks for a helm from the vendor in Dal :|

And also sometimes the items just won't drop. I did HC ToC every time I was able to on Ryai and mail never seemed to want to drop that she could use[tho now it drops every single damn time to mock me], and I drooled over leather that always dropped but never rolled for it or always let those who could use it, use it. And then when the gun finally dropped, the last thing Ryai would have ever needed?

She already had the crossbow from Ick and Krick and I just wanted to kick the Black Knight in the ballbearings all the way to siberia.

Yes I know you are trying to help them but you may not understand they could be at their ropes end, or worse, there really could be no gear for them readily available.

Edit: Also speaking about droods, if they are balance it might not be spellpower they're rolling on, or int, but actually something offering hiy. Aria's told me alot of their leather seems to actually be made for Resto droods, and as such they have very little hit and have to gem for it as often as they can, which would explain why a druid would want to roll on an item that offers hit- and the ability to have a chance to socket something other than hit.

[Sarayana]

I agree with Ryai, gear is really convoluted and hard to match by armor class while leveling.. I wore loads of cloth on my balance druid until I hit Northrend, and my hunter never turned down a leather piece unless a rogue or feral druid needed it.

However, I'll also add that I'm 100% stats > armor class. I know Blizz is changing it, but by god, they need to make sure the gear in the proper armor class has the right stats, then! Through Naxx and Ulduar, most BiS gear for resto druids was cloth. Yeah, I'll leave your cloth alone, clothies, as soon as I can get stats I need from leather! /minirant. Anyway, Blizz has definitely put a lot of effort into balancing stats properly within armor classes, so my prediction is it won't matter after Cataclysm. Not that that helps now, of course...

[FlightofthePhoenix]

I can see your point. It seems like cloth gear is always dropping. I may have sounded overly harsh (that's the liquor talking). I'm mostly frustrated at the DPS not properly geared, especially the hunters as my armory can show that mail is not difficult to find. I use Wowhead or the WoW armory to find the gear I should be looking for. I plan my dungeon runs to get the gear I want. I inspect higher level players to see what is available. I will be more patient with druids. Hunters, I don't really see the excuse. But for druids, I will gripe at Blizzard for making it so difficult.

Edited to add: I have only played hunter, paladin, and Death Knight. I have a lot of respect for druids. They make great tanks and healers.

[NotTheFace]

An upgrade is an upgrade, regardless of armor type. Am I a bad hunter for wearing leather? No, I just haven't found a better mail piece.

[Adam-Savage]

There is nothing wrong with a Hunter wearing leather or a Druid wearing cloth. As long as you don't go all out on cloth or leather. If the stats are better then what you got then go for it.

[Ryai]

Edited to add: I have only played hunter, paladin, and Death Knight. I have a lot of respect for druids. They make great tanks and healers.

Well then you should know that alot of paladins [and wars and probably would have been DK's too] had to roll on leather for a time for stats they needed. Tbh I can get the point you're trying to make- there were cries of foul a while ago about a Warrior rolling on Shammy/Hunter MAIL That had no stats that he needed outside of I think, agility. But again, nothing else he could really have used.

But the items you're talking about, as said, are ones that we- no matter the class, can use. Tbh the only time someone should be forced into their set, without any leeway is if they are the tank. Tanks in mail, leather or cloth when better is available? No. Do not want.

Also I do have to say there are excuses for hunters- as I've said ToC and other places can be a real coniption fit over getting gear. Like say, i know there's boots and bracer upgrades for Ryai, and any other hunters I level. but where do they drop?

FoS and PoS evidently. With a low droprate.

It's the Black Knight all over again.

Edit: or HoR.

I forget which really >_>

[FlightofthePhoenix]

I did some number crunching with gear drops from dungeons available at 70. Heroic dungeons were left out. For purposes of this, I put gear that could be used by either class under the class that couldn't use the other. For example, Paladins can use strength and stamina, but Death Knights can't use intellect. So that piece would be put under Death Knight. Cloth class use is not important to this so I didn't distinguish. Please forgive any errors.

Cloth = 37

Leather = 25
Druid: 13
Rogue: 12

Mail = 30
Hunter: 14
Shaman: 16

Plate = 30
Death Knight/Warrior: 13
Paladin: 17

All classes are about equal. I can see how it is difficult, but it seems as DPS it is our job to stay alive as long as possible, too. That's why I look at stats, and sometimes I'll take a armor decrease for my stats, but I stay with mail and try to get the best protection I can. Many people don't seem to realize their class armor even drops from certain dungeons. I understand difficulty but I don't understand basic research.

Edited to add: Maybe I'm getting a skewed look at things, too. Usually the only players I notice wearing the improper gear are bad ones and I can't help but think it contributes. I've had hunters who seemed mentally AFK in leather, and a shaman who asked us to pass for cloth gear. I told him that this very dungeon dropped quite a few good shaman pieces. But after the first wipe, he left. I go as far to get the gear with the best stats AND looks for my toon, but I might be a little more obsessive than most. Just a wee bit.

[Ryai]

Yes but the thing you forget is the droprate. IE; it's RNG and just because it can drop, doesn't mean it will. I've heard of people that farmed toc since they hit 80 for a month or more and never get any gear. One poor clothie lamented to me the only thing that ever dropped on his runs?

Plate, Mail, Leather. Never cloth.

That is the other problem with classes, yes I can roll for cloth on my resto drood but that doesn't mean I really want to or like to at his level, but because Blizz didn't impliment good caster leather until later levels, I'm stuck rolling on cloth.

And if a cloth drops at later levels and I can use it- and no clothie is in the group to use it, I'll try and roll for it. If it prevents me from getting grief over worrying about how much longer I need to farm, then so be it. Better to be used than just vendor trash. Though I usually ask before needing/rolling for it anyways so.

It seems for the most part you're just having to deal with lazy people or ones that possibly Ebayed or a bit of both.

The only time that you should really step in is if they're rolling on melee dps items [aka expertise, actually had an MM ask if a ROGUE trinket was better than the current trinket he had /facepalm] or, as you said, if they are gonna have a chance for better drops, that are for their class, then give them a helpful tip.

[Sarayana]

The way I figure, whether or not the dungeon drops an item that's an upgrade for, say, my shaman's resto spec, if a pair of cloth gloves drop, nobody else can use them, and they're a huge upgrade for me? I ask for them. I'm leveling through dungeons, the only place armor matters in dungeons is on the tank. I'll also be moving through the levels so quickly that to do a particular dungeon for a particular piece is pointless... I'll replace it in a couple of days anyway. If I don't get it - because the others don't pass on it or somebody in the group can actually use it AND need on it? - who cares? I'll get an upgrade in a couple of days anyway.

I don't really know how you came to your numbers, but I'll point out that caster paladins, druids, and shamans are notoriously hard to gear as they level. The gear "intended" for their specs is horrendously itemised - elemental shamans get mp5 and no hit, balance druids get spirit up the wazoo, paladins get spirit on plate, wth Blizz? If their main purpose is to dungeon or group level, then the armor class is just infinitely less important than thoroughput. If that means lower armor class, then hey! Who am I to complain? "Oh no, our healer's wearing MAIL! His heals will SUCK now!"?? Just my 2c, of course.

Edit: I'm in 100% agreement with Ryai here. If you want to argue about people's rolls, dispute stats mistakes. That's a hell of a lot more important than armor class, especially before max level.

[FlightofthePhoenix]

I said I haven't played many classes I do benefit from your experience. Please don't be angry with me. I think I intended it more as a rant against the lazy ones. For me it's never been hard- no strike that- it has been hard but I enjoy hard in a sick twisted way. I farmed for the lowest drop rate pet twice. I'll run through a dungeon for a gear piece I want until I start dreaming about it. My sense of what's reasonable for a person might be off.

The numbers I got by examining the drops for each dungeon, and then checking gear type against class stats. I did not account for different specs but I did notice a lot of the gear for druids did seem to be healer-heavy.

Different classes have more excuses than others for not being in the right gear type. I would think any melee class would want to be in the right gear. No matter how good the tank is, there could be adds, there could be burst damage, there could be stacking damage, there could be random targeting. DPS should be able to protect themselves in some way, via armor, stealth, spells, whatever is needed. That was pretty much my point. Sometimes people are lazy and expect to be carried. If someone is low armor but gives it their all, then great.

But hey, if you want to talk about people needing on the wrong stats, then fine. Death Knights in pally gear, rogues in druid gear, and hunters as shamans. That's embarrassing.

[Kreature]

Mail...why do you need mail gear anyways how often do hunters get hit? maybe only in pvp. Sure it may boost my pets armor up some, but if i am in a group not even my pet is getting hit. Sooo i will roll on leather if its better then the mail item i have and i will look sexy in leather baby!

[Saturo]

Mail...why do you need mail gear anyways how often do hunters get hit? maybe only in pvp. Sure it may boost my pets armor up some, but if i am in a group not even my pet is getting hit. Sooo i will roll on leather if its better then the mail item i have and i will look sexy in leather baby!

The main reason is actually your manapool. Good leather will NEVER contain Intellect, since the leather classes (Rogues and feral Druids) don't use mana. And, with the talent Careful Aim, which everyone should have, you get 100% of your Intellect as Attack Power too. Plus, without some Intellect, you go oom incredibly fast.

[Dragonpuff]

I think my Hunter in wearing leather gloves right now. I debated it for a bit before deciding to go with them, because even if they were leather, they were a stat upgrade. As a range DPS, I shouldn't really be getting hit, so the armor doesn't matter much. Those stats though, those nice, yummy stats... THAT'S what I need.
So yeah, if it's a stat upgrade, I'll ask for it. If I can get a better mail piece later, even better! Something else to note though. There is appropriate gear of the appropriate type out there, yes. You can find out where it all is and make a list, sure. But not everyone has the time to grind those places to get that gear. I go to college, work, try to spend at least a little time with friends during the week, and do other stuff online as well as play WoW in the mean time. I simple CAN'T dedicate hour upon hour working for one specific pair of mail boots, when I could be running around having simple fun in some sturdy leather ones.

[Koona]

I don't think hunters should roll on leather...it just seems silly to me. I mean, if you're a class that wears Mail, you gotta wear mail. You wear plate? Please roll on plate gear. Of course, if a Paladin healer needs a piece of cloth, let him have it...He's the one that heals you so! But as a DPS, you can wait until you find something else!

[Kreature]

One or two pieces of leather is not going to make you go oom. I have never seen a hunter above lvl 40 in all leather, my hunter is in full mail except for his boots which are leather. If you are MM you wont have mana troubles like a bm hunter. And dont forget you started in leather =)

[Ryai]

I don't think hunters should roll on leather...it just seems silly to me. I mean, if you're a class that wears Mail, you gotta wear mail. You wear plate? Please roll on plate gear. Of course, if a Paladin healer needs a piece of cloth, let him have it...He's the one that heals you so! But as a DPS, you can wait until you find something else!

Isn't that hypocritical? I'm sorry but if it's an upgrade for a dps and no one else needs it, doesn't that in turn, help the dps dps more?

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... am&cn=Ryai iza meeee maaarioooo.

*cough cough*

Note the helm? Rogue/Feral, yes? But no other person was in the group that wanted it. I asked if I could roll for it, everyone was fine. Wasn't able to roll need- won it luckily on the greed roll. No one minded that I wanted it, even the rogue in the group was fine with it as evidently he had better gear.

Now if the target class that hat was aimed for, allowed me to have it, tbh that is all that matters in the end. I'm not defending the lazy people and I'm not trying to get mad, but it just feels you're trying to tell people how to play when tbh it doesn't -matter- how much armor you have. If you're going to die, you're going to die. Armor and health don't do diddly if the tank can't keep mobs off you or the healer doesn't bother to heal or can't out heal the damage.

I should know, I have a tank and a healer. I don't go into a dungeon expecting people to heal themselves or take care of themselves, no matter what side i'm on, Healer or Tank. I treat the group as a basket of eggs that if I don't keep an eye on they will crack and die, leaving me with nothing.

If the DPS dies on adds because the tank lost aggro or couldn't keep aggro, it's NOT the dps fault for being in cloth, leather or mail. It's the tank's fault. If a person dies because they are taking damage, and the healer can't out heal the damage, again that's the healer's fault. Cause seriously I'm sorry but the fault in your logic is that, hunters are more fragile in leather than rogues or kitty droods. That moonkin are more fragile, in cloth, than clothies.

If they're going to die they're going to die no matter what is going to happen.

I do get your points. They shouldn't be rolling- but the fact of the matter is, are they rolling if anyone else needs? If not, why does it matter? Are they rolling when they don't need it? If not, why does it matter? What they are rolling on, is it really an upgrade? If it is, again, why does it matter?

It's not like a hunter I saw who was in cloth- and NOT the cloth BoA set hunter I saw a while back, but a real hunter. In cloth. For spirit and stam and spell power.

Or a feral druid.

In caster leather.

My case is basically, it just sounds like you're trying to get people to play the way you do when it's their game, if they want to be in cloth, and they aren't stealing it and they are getting the stats they need- or wear leather or mail, then once again, if they're doing their job, if they are with the right stats and etc, why does it matter?

Relax.

Breathe.

And be glad the gear is going to who can use it And not the Ninja

Edit: No wait I do remember a fight where hp did save us from wiping. But it was more like the fact it was phase 3 Black Knight and we needed a couple people to still be alive incase the healer died. PVP armor gave me 30k hp and no one complained about my slip in dps. But tbh that's the -only- fight where your argument can really be held up.

Cause really again it was random LFG throwing in an undergeared healer and we really didn't have the heart to blame him or kick him :|

[Sarayana]

Haha Ryai, I should just write "what she said".

I just want to add ooooone leeeeeettle thing:

f the DPS dies on adds because the tank lost aggro or couldn't keep aggro, it's NOT the dps fault for being in cloth, leather or mail. It's the tank's fault. If a person dies because they are taking damage, and the healer can't out heal the damage, again that's the healer's fault.

Except if the tank can't keep aggro to a non-MDing and non-FDing hunter... or the healer can't heal the dps that doesn't move out of the Black Knight's desecrate. Man, I tried healing a well-geared group through Anub in AN, and three melee dps that don't move out of pound and don't kill the poison spitting ^%&@*#)$s first? Yeah, not that easy to heal, no matter if you're geared or not.

Anyway, I'm not going to repeat my point anymore, cause I know what it comes down to is a really divisive argument in WoW about stats vs. armor class. I've had this argument maaaaaaany times already, and all I can say is: Hallelujah, they're fixing it in Cataclysm! Finally! I am really looking forward to low-level quest rewards that aren't immediate vendor trash because no plate wearer will wear a chest piece with agility and spirit!

[Ryai]

Off topic: Wait what you can escape pound? I didn't know that. No one ever yelled YO TANK MOVE YO BELF ASS AWAY to me D:

And yeah you do have a point there, Sarayana, but then again that's still not gear fault but player fault cause no matter what armor you have, trash or not, the hits are most likely going to hurt no matter what you are.


tho admitedly sometimes I FD to soon and I get wailed upon while waiting for FD to cd and swear a storm while warstomping/trying to get to tank to help him get them off >_>