Why is BM so low in dps?

Kurenio
Grand Master Hunter
Grand Master Hunter
Posts: 1684
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:23 am
Realm: Ner'zhul
Gender: Male
Location: In a raid

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kurenio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:40 pm

Zmoni wrote:For me Bm is amazing unless its on fights where my pet is going to be moving around too much.
Fights in the Firelands like Shannox and Lord Rhyolith are horrible for bm to me.
If you ever get to do Firelands you'll deffinately love bm on Baleroc. Only one thing to hit :)
ugh shannox.... I hate that fight so much. My dps completely sucks on that fit simply because my guild has me on the face rages so I have to save my KC for that... and with no timers I can't predict it.

My Characters
Image
Signatures thanks to the amazing Sookie,Kuraine,
Rongar, Serenith and Me!
"Follow my heart, Follow my head, I'll follow anything to get to her heart."
12 hunters and 10 other classes being leveled.


User avatar
Morven
Artisan Hunter
Artisan Hunter
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:38 am
Realm: Nesingwary
Location: Seattle, WA (originally from the UK)
Contact:

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Morven » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:10 pm

I've noticed that the reforging advice site Mr. Robot is now advising hunters to reforge to haste only. They claim this is deliberate, not a bug, and is supported by their testing. Others seem to disagree.

Kurenio
Grand Master Hunter
Grand Master Hunter
Posts: 1684
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:23 am
Realm: Ner'zhul
Gender: Male
Location: In a raid

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kurenio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:24 pm

Morven wrote:I've noticed that the reforging advice site Mr. Robot is now advising hunters to reforge to haste only. They claim this is deliberate, not a bug, and is supported by their testing. Others seem to disagree.
Everyone else seems to to disagree.... hence why I don't trust sites like this and do my own personal testing to see with my own eyes the truth heh.

My Characters
Image
Signatures thanks to the amazing Sookie,Kuraine,
Rongar, Serenith and Me!
"Follow my heart, Follow my head, I'll follow anything to get to her heart."
12 hunters and 10 other classes being leveled.


User avatar
Morven
Artisan Hunter
Artisan Hunter
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:38 am
Realm: Nesingwary
Location: Seattle, WA (originally from the UK)
Contact:

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Morven » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:30 pm

Interestingly, I go back there today and it's now advising hit to cap and then crit, same as everywhere else! Someone must have changed their minds.

User avatar
Nachtwulf
Grand Master Hunter
Grand Master Hunter
Posts: 2805
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 12:17 am
Realm: Wyrmrest Accord

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nachtwulf » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:32 pm

Because forging to pure haste is duuuuumb. XD

Probably someone with editing access was all 'HUR HUR LET'S SEE IF THEM STOOPID HUNTARDS FALL FOR THIS HURR' and changed it on the fly.

someday I'll find someplace to host a sig that isn't stupid money-grubbing photobucket


User avatar
Morven
Artisan Hunter
Artisan Hunter
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:38 am
Realm: Nesingwary
Location: Seattle, WA (originally from the UK)
Contact:

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Morven » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:48 pm

No, I saw postings on their forums from their developers saying that they were convinced that the common wisdom was wrong and that haste was important. I see nothing today admitting that they got it wrong, naturally.

User avatar
Fafnir
Journeyman Hunter
Journeyman Hunter
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:59 am

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Fafnir » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:52 pm

Tazik Shocker is a pretty bad tinker btw. You want the Synapse Springs, which gives the agility buff.

BM suffers moreso than any other class on fights where you switch targets where your pet has to run out of melee range to reach the next, which is pretty much everything but Baleroc, but I mean really, do you want to say a patchwerk fight where rogues actually top meters is the posterchild boss for BM too? Prolly not. (btw holy crap using Kill Command for Rageface? kudos, that's more micromanaging of Charge than I have the patience for)

BM will also suffer on any fight that has a significant amount of aoe. Sure you can bring your chimera out, but it needs travel time.

On my worgen's raiding guild we have one of each spec, and the SV and BM hunters are decked-out officers, and I destroy their damage on everything but target-dummy bosses (e.g. chimaeron, atramedes... they haven't done baleroc yet, I think, def not staghelm), where I out-damage them by a good margin instead. This can partially be attributed to skill, since I was beating them using a 346 blue gun while they were using 359s, still beating them with a 359 xbow while they were using 372 bows, and still with my 359 xbow while they have 378 xbows.

If BM was ahead by any margin, it was only on spreadsheets; there's too much pet movement required in most fights, and now with Sic'Em being bugged, the pet focus regen bug being fixed, pets dying to random shyte, and the mastery being reduced, I don't trust BM to put out reliable damage except on target-dummy fights. It's good in 2v2 though.

(ps rogues, I'm sorry)

(pps nah, I'm not, you had like 4-5 tiers straight where you could 2-button your way to victory)

(ppps screw your full-speed stealth, go diaf)
Image

TygerDarkstorm
 Community Resource
 Community Resource
Posts: 14480
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:15 pm
Realm: Staghelm (Alliance), Wyrmrest Accord (Horde)
Gender: Female playing both genders
Location: WoW

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:58 pm

I think it is worth mentioning that just because you as a player out damage/DPS (damage is more important than DPS btw) your particular group of people as a certain spec doesn't make a spec good, bad, or average. Your personal results are not a part of the WHOLE. And the whole by all of the thereocrafters and logs is that BM is currently pushing the least DPS of the three specs in end game content.

Warlocks as a whole are about middle of the road in overall DPS between the classes, but I've been working on my lock anyway and within my particular group, my lock is performing pretty well. However, my personal experience doesn't necessarily mean that all warlocks are sitting in a really good spot right now and I think that's something quite a few posters in this thread need to consider.

Follow me on Tumblr! @projectashley
Like Crochet? You can see what I make @ facebook.com/AshedCreations

Lord Godfrey wrote:Some people only want to watch the world burn. Others want to be the ones responsible for burning it...
[/center]

Kurenio
Grand Master Hunter
Grand Master Hunter
Posts: 1684
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:23 am
Realm: Ner'zhul
Gender: Male
Location: In a raid

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kurenio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:22 pm

TygerDarkstorm wrote:I think it is worth mentioning that just because you as a player out damage/DPS (damage is more important than DPS btw) your particular group of people as a certain spec doesn't make a spec good, bad, or average. Your personal results are not a part of the WHOLE. And the whole by all of the thereocrafters and logs is that BM is currently pushing the least DPS of the three specs in end game content.

Warlocks as a whole are about middle of the road in overall DPS between the classes, but I've been working on my lock anyway and within my particular group, my lock is performing pretty well. However, my personal experience doesn't necessarily mean that all warlocks are sitting in a really good spot right now and I think that's something quite a few posters in this thread need to consider.
and what does it say when I blow those people claimed results out of the water proving that they were wrong?

My Characters
Image
Signatures thanks to the amazing Sookie,Kuraine,
Rongar, Serenith and Me!
"Follow my heart, Follow my head, I'll follow anything to get to her heart."
12 hunters and 10 other classes being leveled.


TygerDarkstorm
 Community Resource
 Community Resource
Posts: 14480
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:15 pm
Realm: Staghelm (Alliance), Wyrmrest Accord (Horde)
Gender: Female playing both genders
Location: WoW

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:27 pm

It is just your personal experience. Seriously? How many more times does that need to be said? At the top end game guilds, gear, and skill levels, MM is the top performing spec right now. Individual players obviously perform differently with different specs. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. The mileage varies between different people.

Follow me on Tumblr! @projectashley
Like Crochet? You can see what I make @ facebook.com/AshedCreations

Lord Godfrey wrote:Some people only want to watch the world burn. Others want to be the ones responsible for burning it...
[/center]

User avatar
Fafnir
Journeyman Hunter
Journeyman Hunter
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:59 am

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Fafnir » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:00 pm

Kurenio wrote: and what does it say when I blow those people claimed results out of the water proving that they were wrong?
It just means that maybe the people you are competing against, like me in my worgen's guild, might not be that good at their class. The best thing to do is look at World of Logs and compare the hunter specs for certain fights (removing numbers that look grossly weird, those are usually glitched reports)

Let me show you Baleroc 25M, supposedly the best fight for BM in Firelands. I'm assuming the top numbers usually are from players not on shard duty.

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players ... ry_Hunter/ BM 27-31k top 10
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players ... al_Hunter/ SV 29-33k top 10
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players ... ip_Hunter/ MM 33-35k top 10

I don't know how to convince you otherwise if you believe so strongly in anecdote.
Image

Kurenio
Grand Master Hunter
Grand Master Hunter
Posts: 1684
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:23 am
Realm: Ner'zhul
Gender: Male
Location: In a raid

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kurenio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:50 pm

Look fafnir I'm not going to argue with you. Facts are in the past I've out done what WoL shows as top DPS for BM hunters. I don't post logs there so the fact that I did more doesn't matter right? The fact that Theorycrafter claimed 22k was the top a BM hunter could pull in t11 and I pulled 4k more in far from BiS gear. Don't take things like WoL as fact or Theorycrafters as fact; because NOT EVERYONE THAT PLAYS WOW REPORTS TO THEM THEREFOR IT IS INACCURATE!*. I will not be coming back here to hash it out with you goodbye.

*In fact most of the cream of the crop top guilds don't post their logs there at all.
Last edited by Kurenio on Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

My Characters
Image
Signatures thanks to the amazing Sookie,Kuraine,
Rongar, Serenith and Me!
"Follow my heart, Follow my head, I'll follow anything to get to her heart."
12 hunters and 10 other classes being leveled.


CrystalKitten
Artisan Hunter
Artisan Hunter
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:00 am
Realm: Llane, Nesingwary

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by CrystalKitten » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:57 pm

Kurenio wrote:Look fafnir I'm not going to argue with you. Facts are in the past I've out done what WoL shows as top DPS for BM hunters. I don't post logs there so the fact that I did more doesn't matter right? The fact that Theorycrafter claimed 22k was the top a BM hunter could pull in t11 and I pulled 4k more in far from BiS gear. Done take things like WoL as fact or Theorycrafters as fact; because NOT EVERYONE THAT PLAYS WOW REPORTS TO THEM THEREFOR IT IS INACCURATE!. I will not be coming back here to hash it out with you goodbye.
That's exactly what I was saying. I took my first stats course ever... And sites like those are EXACTLY the type of example that my prof would give for a BAD stats source. It's NOT a random sample. It's people who bother with mods, or uploading their information. MAYBE all the people who like BM don't give a * about those kinds of things, therefore they don't post. Sure, you could say the chances of that are slim... but.. you don't know that for sure. The fact is that it's NOT a true random sample. Which means it is NOT an acceptable way to measure the truth of the population.
Image
Thanks to TankPerson for the sig!
My Dragon Cave

Slickrock
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter
Posts: 3200
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:20 pm

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Slickrock » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:11 am

Kurenio wrote:
Kerafirewing wrote: I'm currently trying to look at like my haste and crit to see if I need to reforge and change some stuff prior to valor gear.
This... is wrong.... Yes you need crit, but not haste the stat prio you should be following is Agi > Hit to 8% > Crit > Mastery >>>>>> haste.
I would like to see some other numbers, as all the other hunter sites do disagree with that, as do femaledwarf, mrrobot, Frostheim, EJ, etc.

That being said, I do believe that Haste is overrated, as it's too hard to maintain the optimal rotations required to take advantage of haste.
Account has been closed at user's request.

User avatar
Nightsights
Expert Hunter
Expert Hunter
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:56 pm
Realm: Gilneas-US

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:15 am

Kurenio wrote: The fact that Theorycrafter claimed 22k was the top a BM hunter could pull in t11 and I pulled 4k more in far from BiS gear.
hmm, so you claim to have done 26K dps in T11 10mans, ok, even if you did, you were below MM and SV, which you claim BM was higher than SV. the top 100 or so BM hunters on WoL were at or below that dps range. while MM and SV were in the 28K+ range.

i just did a quick search on wowprogress, the majority of the top 15 guilds in the world have their logs posted. and there are thousands of guilds that post their logs on there. it may not be a true random sample, but it is a majority of semi-casual, semi-hardcore, hardcore, and elite guilds in the world. the sheer percentage of raiding guilds that post out weighs what you may think is not a random sample.

User avatar
AdamSavage
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter
Posts: 4482
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:42 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by AdamSavage » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:53 am

26k dps eh ? Do you have an Armory link that shows your gear, vs what you got on now ?
Last edited by AdamSavage on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
I believe if you can believe out of nothing an explosion (big bang) happened then how far fetched can god be?

Dr. Who Video!

Image

User avatar
Nachtwulf
Grand Master Hunter
Grand Master Hunter
Posts: 2805
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 12:17 am
Realm: Wyrmrest Accord

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nachtwulf » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:17 am

I have a theory. It's my theory. It is therefore only founded on my perceptions. This, however, makes it just as legit as anyone else's out there, so I'm going to say it anyway.

People who post logs to these sites don't care about, or like, BM.

For a long time (possibly forever), historically, BM has been perceived (in some cases accurately, in others inaccurately) to suck. I cannot think of a single time when the mental perception of BM by the community at large was not 'god this spec is for losers and nubs'...even when it was actually kind of broken and overpowered. There were (and still are) a minority that like and use the spec plenty, but for anyone that was a nose-in-the-air meter humper... BM was about equivalent to saying you'd forgotten to spend half your talent points.

As a result, these players not only aren't used to the spec because they never really use it for any length of time, but even when they do lower themselves to trying to push the buttons in the right sequence, they really, frankly, don't give a damn. They "know" their numbers will be better as another spec, and lo and behold, they're right.

How many people have entered a pug dungeon in Hellfire and gotten a DK tank? And how wipetastic and awful are those experiences? Chances are, unless the DK in question is not the first one that player has turned out, probably pretty awful... because five levels is not enough time to really learn what the hell to do with a series of buttons you're not intimately familiar with.

I want to see some of these log flouters play BM steadily for six months to a year and THEN come back and give me some numbers. Learn the spec. Learn how the hell to make it work for you. Don't just spend thirty minutes or one boss fight flailing madly at a spec you haven't touched seriously since vanilla (if then) and expect me to believe a word you say.

The end, theory (and rant) over.

someday I'll find someplace to host a sig that isn't stupid money-grubbing photobucket


User avatar
Kalliope
Illustrious Master Hunter
Illustrious Master Hunter
Posts: 14062
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:40 am
Realm: Dethecus
Location: Thedas
Contact:

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kalliope » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:15 am

It's worth noting that haste impacts different players differently due to lag issues as well.

And thank you, Faf; I had meant the springs, but wrote the other. >_< Fixed the original post.

Image
Kalliope's Pantheon of Pets
YouTube Edition
Thanks to Serenith for the avatar and signature!


User avatar
Nightsights
Expert Hunter
Expert Hunter
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:56 pm
Realm: Gilneas-US

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:14 am

Nachtwulf wrote:This, however, makes it just as legit as anyone else's out there, so I'm going to say it anyway.

People who post logs to these sites don't care about, or like, BM.

As a result, these players not only aren't used to the spec because they never really use it for any length of time, but even when they do lower themselves to trying to push the buttons in the right sequence, they really, frankly, don't give a damn. They "know" their numbers will be better as another spec, and lo and behold, they're right.

I want to see some of these log flouters play BM steadily for six months to a year and THEN come back and give me some numbers. Learn the spec. Learn how the hell to make it work for you. Don't just spend thirty minutes or one boss fight flailing madly at a spec you haven't touched seriously since vanilla (if then) and expect me to believe a word you say.

people who posts logs usually aren't hunters. they are the GM, RL, or officer of the raiding guild. they don't post their logs to make BM look bad or to make MM look good. there's no conspiracy against BM on the part of people who post logs. maybe there is on Blizzard's part. /angry @ ghostcrawler

like i said in previous posts, there are thousands of raiding guilds that post their logs. basically you just said that these top raiding BM hunters in top raiding guilds that are already doing Heroic Firelands don't care for BM spec, they don't give a damn and are just pressing buttons, they haven't used BM spec any length of time, they haven't learned the spec and don't know what they're doing and don't care what they're doing, their goal is to make BM look bad on WoL.......................yes, very legit theory

as for us "log flouters" there's no need for us to play BM to make anyone believe, there's thousands of logs out there for all of us to analyze and to make educated decisions. we've already looked at the big picture. and besides there are very few hunters here that do any kind of serious raiding, and even we don't qualify as top raiding hunters. our numbers wouldn't even make it near the top 100 rankings.

User avatar
Kerafirewing
Apprentice Hunter
Apprentice Hunter
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:27 am
Realm: Sisters of Elune (Used to be Uldaman)
Gender: F IRL M+F in-game
Location: Grooming my pets by the stable master in the Tauren District.

Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kerafirewing » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:00 am

I enjoy BM because of the different pets (now). Prior it was just because I found it to be the most comfortable to play for me. My hunter was the first toon I ever made in the game. I wanted to do something with it instead of just deleting it. As for stats, I had asked because I could not find any definite answers anywhere. I came here and saw this thread and knew fellow BM hunters would most like post here so wanted to ask. I mentioned haste as I know it affects focus regen and I find myself getting low or out too quickly for my taste. Some of which is probably my doing: too many Arcanes in a row or such. I was doing some reforging as I saw I was actually at 9% hit and wanted to see if there was a definite point I needed to be at for both haste and crit since those were the two stats I had not fully researched. I simply had what was on my gear or gems and that was it. If the shocker tidbit was for me (vs springs) then the armory must have switched to my pvp gear when you looked as I only have that on my pvp gloves for giggles and to try out. My pve gloves have the springs on them...or should again since I had been playing with the accelerators at the target dummy earlier.

As for topping the charts, it must be important because no matter what toon I'm on (hunter or not) if I don't come in at least first or second on nearly all pulls in dungeons and top 5 in raids, I get kicked from groups for "not knowing my class enough to do decent dps." Yes, I get all the douchebags in the game it seems. Hence trying to fine tune my stats to see if I could do better while getting the VP I need for upgrades.

As for logs, I don't care about them unless they are mine. I don't have the life schedule to be in one of the bleeding edge raiding guilds so I'm not trying. I just want to be able to go into raids that I can and actually do my job as a HUNTER. I prefer BM because that is MY choice just like it is a warlock's choice to be Destro instead of Demo or whatever. I just want to be able to play the character to the best of my ability and perhaps get better given rational advice, gear, and knowledge of the fights to do so.
My precious guardians
Other hunters: Tobias, Roxie, Kynsia, Jaystus, Kegtapper, Noriana, Cleo, Lakota, Romulus, Roxie, Solari, Sahkura, Syren, Ladywolf

Post Reply