Why is BM so low in dps?

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Anyia » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:16 am

Nachtwulf wrote:People who post logs to these sites don't care about, or like, BM.
Personal observation supports this theory. I frequently end up being ranked in the top 100 on WoL as BM, and I know I'm not that good! :lol:

Also, Baleroc sucks for me dps-wise as the shards always end up in melee range and I'm not important enough to shift the raid for.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Fafnir » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:24 am

I suppose I should have used 10m log numbers, since other hunter specs are better represented for raid comp. I typed out this long boring thing, but the gist of it is this:

#1 BM 10m dps on Baleroc is 27.7k dps, the guy on the bottom of the first MM page at #40 10m Bal is still over 30k.

Now there are a lot of fun variables on Baleroc like 1 or 2 tanks, shard soaker or not (I'm under the assumption that people who rank tend to not be soakers, though soaking in 10m doesn't really cut damage much unless you deterrence or well... die), full physical dps buff/debuff spread, bloodlust available etc. Firelands has only been out for 4 resets so it's really not uncommon to rank if you're any good at your class, but even so there is enough established data to make top 10, even top 20 a difficult task. I always roll my eyes if I rank on anything as my prot paladin.

It would be nice if all 3 specs were equal damage, but they're not. If you trust your own experiences so much, that's fine since you don't raid with me. It's nothing personal; I don't accept religion for similar reasons. Anecdotes don't explain why BM is the lowest hunter damage spec looking at a long list of numbers. It's still early in the tier but that's still quite a bit of data to believe that the world's WoL uploaders are biased against BM.

And haste... haste has always been the black sheep of dps stats. There are some plateaus you can keep an eye on (notably reaching 1s steady/cobra shots during RF or bloodlust) but those are also heavily affected by latency and movement. BM/SV aren't usually as focus-starved as MM anyway, so it's really not a priority considering crit is leaps better and mastery probably still better.

I use http://wowreforge.com/ for my reforging because it was one of the first calculators available, but I would take the non-essential stat weights (i.e. anything other than hit and crit) with a grain of salt. btw you need at least 961 hit; your pet can still miss with 960 hit rating, as the game rounds hit% down for pets.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kurenio » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:23 am

Nightsights wrote:
hmm, so you claim to have done 26K dps in T11 10mans, ok, even if you did, you were below MM and SV, which you claim BM was higher than SV. the top 100 or so BM hunters on WoL were at or below that dps range. while MM and SV were in the 28K+ range.

i just did a quick search on wowprogress, the majority of the top 15 guilds in the world have their logs posted. and there are thousands of guilds that post their logs on there. it may not be a true random sample, but it is a majority of semi-casual, semi-hardcore, hardcore, and elite guilds in the world. the sheer percentage of raiding guilds that post out weighs what you may think is not a random sample.

1.I claimed 26k in far from BiS gear I'm talking about not even full 359 gear or 4 set tier bonus.
2. Your a damn liar because I checked myself before I posted that they didn't, and I know for a fact that the majority of the top 20 guild in face do not post their logs there. In actuality I only remember seeing method posting their logs.
3. Its far from accurate and far from the majority of guilds that do raid. Like i said before I've out done what they have posted there and because I did not post my log it doesn't count? What that means is that any other person can pull that same DPS, but their not able to for some reason or another not that the spec in it entirety is not up to par with the other 2.
4. Blizzard nerfs and buff classes depending on their potenial DPS in full BiS gear with every buff available to them. All 3 specs come out about even, and BM was ahead last tier thats why it was nerfed. (with both their mastery and careful aim).

AdamSavage wrote:26k dps eh ? Do you have an Armory link that shows your gear, vs what you got on now ?
Nope I don't think the armory could show my old gear since I've sold it when I did get upgraded. I could make a list if you would like.
Nightsights wrote:

as for us "log flouters" there's no need for us to play BM to make anyone believe, there's thousands of logs out there for all of us to analyze and to make educated decisions. we've already looked at the big picture. and besides there are very few hunters here that do any kind of serious raiding, and even we don't qualify as top raiding hunters. our numbers wouldn't even make it near the top 100 rankings.
According to WoL i'm in the top dps for 100 world wide and if I had the gear the first ranking one did I would blow him out of the water, but again the number I pull don't matter because I don't post logs. The facts are that if I can pull those numbers it is possible for any other hunter world wide to pull those same numbers; Just because they don't does not in anyway mean that BM as a spec if worse then MM or SV.

With that I want to say I don't raid as seriously as I did in classic-wrath. Really I'm only raiding now to help my guild when they need it whether it be melee dps with my warrior, heals with my paladin, or the rapage of my hunter.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:11 pm

Kurenio wrote:
2. Your a damn liar because I checked myself before I posted that they didn't, and I know for a fact that the majority of the top 20 guild in face do not post their logs there. In actuality I only remember seeing method posting their logs.
this is the current wowprogess on world ranked guilds
1 DREAM Paragon EU-Lightning's Blade 7/7 (H) none
2 Method EU-Xavius 7/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/5549/
3 vodka US-Alterac Mountains 6/7 (H) none
4 Inner Sanctum EU-Silvermoon 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/13308/
5 Irae AoD EU-Mug'thol 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/1706/
6 noxa EU-Arygos 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/34080/
7 Карфаген EU-Пиратская Бухта 6/7 (H) none
8 Ensidia EU-Tarren Mill 6/7 (H) none
9 Blood Legion US-Illidan 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/19341/
10 Premonition US-Sen'Jin 6/7 (H) none
11 Envy EU-Auchindoun 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/98215/
12 For the Horde EU-Nazjatar 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/273/
13 Wraith EU-Sargeras 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/9707/
14 Hordlinge EU-Aegwynn 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/83642/
15 Экзорсус EU-Свежеватель Душ http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/28336/

and since you mentioned the top 20 guilds here are the rest

16 즐거운공격대 KR-Kargath 6/7 (H) none
17 Refuge EU-Taerar 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/41452/
18 Yoh EU-Vashj 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/102027/
19 Moonz EU-Destromath 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/113340/
20 Apex EU-Al'Akir 6/7 (H) http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/388/

c'mon dude........

i'm not biased against BM or for MM/SV. i mean yeah, if BM was top dps, i would be BM, i would advocate BM, i would show you logs of BM out dps'ing MM and SV. but it is not.

you can call me a FotM hunter, but if i need to go MM for top dps, i will. if i need to switch to SV for aoe and traps for add fights, i will. as long as we clear content and progress and stay competitive, the whole is greater than its parts. heck, i'll even go 0/0/0 spec if for some weird glitch it becomes the best dps or utility or whatever.

i've laid out my evidence for everyone to see and analyze for themselves. accept it if you believe, or don't. in the end it is play what you like, but all the evidence still points to this: MM > SV > BM

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by AdamSavage » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:17 pm

Kurenio wrote:2. Your a damn liar because I checked myself before I posted that they didn't, and I know for a fact that the majority of the top 20 guild in face do not post their logs there. In actuality I only remember seeing method posting their logs.
I don't think you should be calling others liars. If you think there not telling the truth, then take it up in pm vs calling them out on the forums like that. Just saying..
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:23 pm

he can call me a liar all he wants, if it was true, then i am a liar, i'm not afraid to be wrong. BUT, i was able to back up what i claimed.

he hasn't presented even a sliver of evidence on this entire thread. he's claimed to know what the full BiS potential of BM is, yet haven't presented anything except that he says so. from what he's been saying in his posts, he is one of the few good BM hunters that has learned how to unlock the full power of BM and was able to do 26K dps in T11 with less than optimal gear; out dps'ing the top ranked BM hunters that are in top ranked hardcore/elite raiding guilds with BiS gear.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:41 pm

I don't understand all the defensiveness going on, mainly by Kurenio. None of us have ever once said that BM is a trashy spec, and yet that's what he's coming in here defending like it's the end of the world or something.

BM's in a better spot for this expansion than it's been for a long time, and I'm sure we can all admit to that. However, it is a fact that it is not the absolute most top end game spec right now, MM is. That doesn't mean that a person should never play BM and I don't think that any of us would ever advocate that. Not to mention that most of the end game Cata raiding fights are completely unfriendly to BM, it is not the most optimal spec for raiding right now, however, if that's the only spec you want to play, then by all means play it and play it to your best abilities, but don't blindside yourself to the fact that MM and SV hunters will pull better DPS/damage.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Rikaku » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:09 pm

Kurenio wrote: By far BM is somewhat easier to play then the other 2 specs If you know what your doing, but most don't and that's why you see so many bad BM hunters and why we have such a bad rep.

Just wanted to highlight which is what I think is my opinion on the whole "BM vs Other Specs" idea.

If you are COMFORTABLE and ENJOY a spec and you know it inside and out like the back of your hand, most of the time you will outdps your average fellow Hunter.

I love BM. I breathe BM. I eat, sleep, and drink it. I have yet to see another MM or SV beat me in any raid, guildies or not, similarly geared or not. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean MM or SV are lower than me, it just means that perhaps there are other factors. Is my gear better? Do I know my spec better? What is required of me during the fight? All of that stuff adds up.

For me, personally, even if I switched to whatever is the top spec of the month, I would lose DPS compared to my BM spec. Why? Because I don't know MM and SV like I do BM. I know what to do in any given situation for BM, the same isn't true for MM or SV for me. And that's also my fault, because I cannot be bothered to learn those specs for what would be a very minimal (if at all) dps increase on my part.

Jessibelle's guide to BM is very useful. If you want to learn to raid as BM, you should definitely check it out. Honestly, in my opinion, the specs are close enough that you should be able to comfortably raid with any spec GIVEN you are appropriately geared, informed about the fights, AND know your spec.

But.. that's just my opinion on this. I'm not getting involved in the rest of the forum drama here. XD


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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:21 pm

Those are very solid points Rikaku. :) And they bring up another key issue in the grand whole of things: You will always perform better in the role/spec that you like best and are most comfortable with. For example, I have experience with all three specs of warlocks, however, I perform least well with destro because I cannot get a firm grasp on the rotation. I have always been more drawn to affy, and demo after that and those are the two spec I am choosing to play. I've also noticed a DPS increase by switching back to my preferred spec, even if it means my raid group loses Bane of Havoc.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:31 pm

Rikaku wrote:
Kurenio wrote: By far BM is somewhat easier to play then the other 2 specs If you know what your doing, but most don't and that's why you see so many bad BM hunters and why we have such a bad rep.

Just wanted to highlight which is what I think is my opinion on the whole "BM vs Other Specs" idea.

If you are COMFORTABLE and ENJOY a spec and you know it inside and out like the back of your hand, most of the time you will outdps your average fellow Hunter.

I love BM. I breathe BM. I eat, sleep, and drink it. I have yet to see another MM or SV beat me in any raid, guildies or not, similarly geared or not. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean MM or SV are lower than me, it just means that perhaps there are other factors. Is my gear better? Do I know my spec better? What is required of me during the fight? All of that stuff adds up.

For me, personally, even if I switched to whatever is the top spec of the month, I would lose DPS compared to my BM spec. Why? Because I don't know MM and SV like I do BM. I know what to do in any given situation for BM, the same isn't true for MM or SV for me. And that's also my fault, because I cannot be bothered to learn those specs for what would be a very minimal (if at all) dps increase on my part.

Jessibelle's guide to BM is very useful. If you want to learn to raid as BM, you should definitely check it out. Honestly, in my opinion, the specs are close enough that you should be able to comfortably raid with any spec GIVEN you are appropriately geared, informed about the fights, AND know your spec.

But.. that's just my opinion on this. I'm not getting involved in the rest of the forum drama here. XD
Definitely agreed, :) Most casual raiders wont care if you're BM these days compared to way back when. Long as you pull your weight, then it's fine and dandy.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Monica Gems » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:35 pm

Kurenio wrote:
TygerDarkstorm wrote:I think it is worth mentioning that just because you as a player out damage/DPS (damage is more important than DPS btw) your particular group of people as a certain spec doesn't make a spec good, bad, or average. Your personal results are not a part of the WHOLE. And the whole by all of the thereocrafters and logs is that BM is currently pushing the least DPS of the three specs in end game content.

Warlocks as a whole are about middle of the road in overall DPS between the classes, but I've been working on my lock anyway and within my particular group, my lock is performing pretty well. However, my personal experience doesn't necessarily mean that all warlocks are sitting in a really good spot right now and I think that's something quite a few posters in this thread need to consider.
and what does it say when I blow those people claimed results out of the water proving that they were wrong?
I out dps MM hunters as BM, but my own MM dps/dmg is higher than my BM damage. What does that say? If you know something we don't, tell us.

Bottom line is that a LOT of hunters as the FotM spec because that's what the forums tell them to play. It doesn't make them good at it, it doesn't mean their numbers will be higher. It just means they play what's "in". I recall a poster here saying hunters advocating a spec other than BM got flak here, and someone else insisted otherwise....

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by AdamSavage » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:22 pm

I can play MM well, but BM is what I'm most familiar with thus my dmg is usually more consistent. Marks I find is heavily reliant on steady shot being cast all the time.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:12 pm

From what some of my guildies have told me, MM is all about counting. Counting how many steady shots til your next aimed shot, how much focus you have, etc. I know the EJ page for MM baffles me and I've yet to read through the whole thing.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Morven » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:22 am

It doesn't per se require counting, though a lot of MM hunters work that way because there's a lot of cooldowns involved and it just becomes easier to work out a fixed rotation than try and handle all those things dynamically. The very best MM hunters do do it dynamically, though. Like all specs, you need to never be late firing off your big-hitting shot, which is Chimera Shot in the case of MM; but MM is more focus-starved than the other specs, it seems, so being too low on focus to fire one is a problem. Thus, you need to fit a whole bunch of Steady Shots into one's firing in order to keep up that focus — and Improved Steady Shot means you should be firing at least two Steady Shots back to back each time you do, to complicate things further.

Pretty complex (and there's a bunch of other procs and cooldowns to consider, too), so many just find it easier to work out a fixed rotation for various states and do that.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:03 am

I just picked up MM for PvP and I'm just sort of pushing the buttons in BGs and hoping that I'm doing all right. XD I'm not casting Aimed Shot unless I get the proc because it's got a fairly long casting time and focus cost to try and use in a BG. Although I'm finding that there's been a few situations where I could probably safely manage it.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Monica Gems » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:25 am

MM;
Serp Sting to open
Chimera > 2x Steady > 2x Arcane > 2x Steady -- reapeat until your fingers bleed. Aimed procs? Use it in place of one of those Arcanes, or before/after the Chimera. Don't seperate your 2 Steady Shots. Occasionally you can fit an Arcane after the Chimera, but I find doing that messes up my focus pool more often than not.

For burst dps, hit Rapid Fire, sting, 2x aimed, 2x steady, then fall into the rotation above. Hitting Readiness and repeating isn't required but doesn't hurt; I don't because I'm not quite fast enough. Doing that tonight netted me 27k single target in a 5 man with a 363 ilvl with the Lava Bolt xbow and t11 2 piece.

On the same boss (ZA cat boss) with the same group in the same gear, as BM I was ~3k lower but still top dps. They are close enough that unless you are in a strict, high end raiding guild, no, it isn't an issue. But for you to say "As BM I top meters so BM is better" doesn't make it true. It just makes you better at BM than others are with their specs. As stated earlier, John Doe going MM because the board told him to when he's VERY good with Surv doesn't mean his dps will sky rocket past a very good BM hunter.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:32 am

I said PvP not PvE. :P My DPS in a BG doesn't matter so much so long as the goal is accomplished.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Slickrock » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:36 am

There's an easy way to settle some of the accusations.

Someone, or I will, roll a lvl 1 alt on K's server, get in a group in a major city, and see what he does on the target dummy. While it's not raid buffed, the sustained dps on the target dummy is a decent measure that's repeatable.

I've hit WoL #100 once as BM, and I know I'm not that good either.

I would like to see what K can do.

The thing for everyone else to understand is that the players that can maximize the rotation for any of the specs can easily be 10-20% higher than the rest of us with similar gear and spec. However, K needs to realize that for the "average-to-good" players here (and everyplace else) who can't master the ideal rotation because of lag, skill, bad fingers, and other issues, SV or MM might mean more dps because it fits better for them.

Personally, on the dummy, I do about 17k in BM and 16.5k in SV, but the aoe advantage and utility of SV wins out in many fights.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Fafnir » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:53 am

Dummy is kind of wonky since it stays at 100%hp, which skews numbers in a pretty massive way if you have Careful Aim.

Also, Aimed Shot is wonderful (with Careful Aim) for sniping distracted healers in BGs.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:39 am

Yeah, I was working on more opportunities for working a hard casted aimed shot while I was BGing earlier, other wise I mostly just try to get sting up (amazing how in BGs it never seems to get dispelled where whu and the likes say it gets dispelled a lot in arena or something), chimaera shot, arcane shot, and steady for regen, aimed if it procs. Been a while since I pvped on a hunter so I have to relearn what to do when I'm stuck in a melee situation and I really need to practice my kiting. XD

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