Why is BM so low in dps?

[Kalliope]

Glyph of conc shot!!! Seriously. Love that thing to bits. <3 Disengage + master's call + ice traps + keeping conc shot up = frustrated melee. My ret pally buddy is complaining bitterly about hunters again.

[Leirudan]

By far BM is somewhat easier to play then the other 2 specs If you know what your doing, but most don't and that's why you see so many bad BM hunters and why we have such a bad rep.

Just wanted to highlight which is what I think is my opinion on the whole "BM vs Other Specs" idea.

If you are COMFORTABLE and ENJOY a spec and you know it inside and out like the back of your hand, most of the time you will outdps your average fellow Hunter.

I love BM. I breathe BM. I eat, sleep, and drink it. I have yet to see another MM or SV beat me in any raid, guildies or not, similarly geared or not. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean MM or SV are lower than me, it just means that perhaps there are other factors. Is my gear better? Do I know my spec better? What is required of me during the fight? All of that stuff adds up.

For me, personally, even if I switched to whatever is the top spec of the month, I would lose DPS compared to my BM spec. Why? Because I don't know MM and SV like I do BM. I know what to do in any given situation for BM, the same isn't true for MM or SV for me. And that's also my fault, because I cannot be bothered to learn those specs for what would be a very minimal (if at all) dps increase on my part.

Jessibelle's guide to BM is very useful. If you want to learn to raid as BM, you should definitely check it out. Honestly, in my opinion, the specs are close enough that you should be able to comfortably raid with any spec GIVEN you are appropriately geared, informed about the fights, AND know your spec.

But.. that's just my opinion on this. I'm not getting involved in the rest of the forum drama here. XD

This pretty well sums it up for me too. A couple guildies had been giving me hell about playing in BGs (just for fun) as a BM, so I specced into MM for BGs. I'm not comfortable at all with the rotation, or the way it works. My DPS dropped drastically. All because I wasn't completely comfortable. I did some more research, and have played it a little bit, but I still out DPS my MM spec with my BM all because it's what I know, love, and enjoy. (Besides, I feel wrong fighting without my exotics...)

As for which spec does top DPS, even with the logs, I'm going to have to agree with the above. It doesn't really matter the spec, as long as you know your character. I've done so many PUGs with other hunters, that I feel really bad when they ask me how I'm out DPSing them as BM. And other times, I've been kicked for not doing top DPS because I refused to switch to MM, as I don't know it. I even explained that I don't know it well enough to play in raid, and wasn't going to risk the raid by doing less than I know I can. And they kicked me, even though I was doing higher DPS than the SV hunter in there.

I've been out DPS'd by both MM and SV, and have discussed methods with the polite ones, and I've out DPS'd both too. It really all comes down to skill with the character. If you're comfortable with it, play it. Cause switching will likely make you drop, and just feel frustrated.

[AdamSavage]

Here is a screenshot I took from Raidbot after filtering it to show only Hunters. Keep in mind that very few Hunters used BM so the data may not be very reliable.

[Kalliope]

BM is completely viable for bgs and such, Lei. That burst damage makes BM hunters rather ridiculous. Your guildies are full of it.

[TygerDarkstorm]

Glyph of conc shot!!! Seriously. Love that thing to bits. <3 Disengage + master's call + ice traps + keeping conc shot up = frustrated melee. My ret pally buddy is complaining bitterly about hunters again.

Death knights were my trouble last night. Not helping that I haven't gotten PvP gear yet anyway so when they grip + chains I'm like FFFUUUUU.

[Kalliope]

Glyph of conc shot!!! Seriously. Love that thing to bits. <3 Disengage + master's call + ice traps + keeping conc shot up = frustrated melee. My ret pally buddy is complaining bitterly about hunters again.

Death knights were my trouble last night. Not helping that I haven't gotten PvP gear yet anyway so when they grip + chains I'm like FFFUUUUU.

*nodnodnod* Once you get your system down, you will make DKs cry bitter, bitter tears. If you're far enough away, even if they put chains of ice on you, they won't be able to touch you in melee range while you have them slowed. If they death grip, master's call+disengage for full distance. If your cooldowns aren't up, you have deterrence in a pinch.

[TygerDarkstorm]

I'll have to keep that in mind, thanks Kalli!

[Ziarre]

Give Raidbot time to gather more data...as it is, the sample size is fairly small. Then, too, there is the issue Blizz saw with Unholy DK's: they were buffed, but people thought their dps was lower because many skilled players had switched to Frost.

[Monica Gems]

PvP spec doesn't matter too terribly much as long as you know how to deal with anything working against you; I refuse to PvP as anything but BM, personally; extra trinket is awesome, self heal is awesome, which leads to the wider range of pets being, you're right, awesome. MM brings a silencer and a mediocre self heal in Chimera, and sSurv has trap enhancers and a sleep shot. They're all viable in PvP, but I'm on Team BM there.

The argument going on vs PvE, I'll stand by what I said earlier; the odds of you running into a raid-skilled player in a 5 man anymore is slim. At best you're running into "but da bordz told meh to go <spec>!!"

[Nachtwulf]

New article on WoWInsider... pretty much proving the point that BM doesn't suck. (And reiterating why a lot of us ignore data from worldoflogs and whatnot.)

http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/08/04/scatt ... #continued

[AdamSavage]

According to Female Dwarf, I do slightly MORE dps in BM then I would in Marks. I made some small changes to my talents in Marks as it's my pvp spec I like to use. However there is was no change at all in my dps. I even played around with my Major Glyphs, and I also had no change. Marks has very little room for error, and it's not very movement friendly really. When I tested out both specs with the same pet, I got about 2k dps MORE in BM then I did with Marks. Then again I'm alot better with BM then marks.

BM:16,690.01

Marks:16,614.04

[SylviaDragon]

When i raid sunwell, im usualy 4th in dps. (and the group is mostly 85s so go figure...they must not be trying hard) all i really do is use a macro to tie in froststorm breath (chimera) to my multi shot so that i have a constant double aoe for trash and if i have the time and focus i toss in some aoe traps and/or pop BW if its up and i know it will be off cd by the time we reach a boss. I also added my trinket to the macro so it pops and gives me exstra attack power for my aoe whenever its off cd. This works great for the larger groups of mobs, i did 18k dps in a heroic at one point just doing this. (at lvl 70)

as for single targets using KC, a cat, (or usualy a wolf if the cat and its buff is covered) and lots of arcane shot spam. (i usualy use arcane shot more then kill comand since i usualy get the same amount of damage from both, arc is cheaper and dosnt have a cooldown, but that exstra damage you get from when kc procs is important.)

as for bosses, i put ALL of my cooldowns into one macro. BW, trinkets, rapid fire, intimidation, heroism (its also my pvp beastcleave macro) and anything elce that can boost my dps. I bring out my cat/wolf. (who is speced to do nothing but pure, raw dps. now point in growl or anything like that.) so long as heroism will be coverd or it now asked for, for the boss fight. If it IS needed i bring out my corehound. I wait for the pet to be in range before i pop the macro, spamming arcane shot and laying down a Serpent sting and probably a trap or two if i have time. once pet is in range, pop the macro, hit KC and then i just spam more arcane shot untill kc is off cd again. I can usualy use the macro twice per boss fight. (then again im a lvl 70 so idk how much of this is still rellivent at 85 and i know the fights will be longer. but i hope there is somthing helpful in this poste)

[Morven]

In the latter half of WOTLK, BM was so much worse off that switching to MM was an automatic DPS increase.

Now, MM will get slightly better figures if you're experienced and good in the spec, as opposed to the same experience and skill in BM. If you're experienced in and good with BM, it will take a significant amount of effort to be able to best your BM skills in another spec. This is especially the case since they slightly nerfed MM in 4.2.

You'd be better off working on improving your mastery of the spec you like, rather than switching. It'll provide probably more of a DPS increase AND improve your general level of skill. If you're late taking advantage of a shot when it comes off cooldown or missing taking advantage of procs, your DPS will suffer. If you're good when standing still but aren't good at keeping up your DPS when having to move, your DPS will suffer. If you're late joining the fight, your damage output will suffer (but not your measured DPS).

Note that this isn't me saying "Nyaah, you all suck because you don't play as well as me." This is "I know I suck at this, which is why I know what I have to work on."

[Monica Gems]

According to Female Dwarf, I do slightly MORE dps in BM then I would in Marks. I made some small changes to my talents in Marks as it's my pvp spec I like to use. However there is was no change at all in my dps. I even played around with my Major Glyphs, and I also had no change. Marks has very little room for error, and it's not very movement friendly really. When I tested out both specs with the same pet, I got about 2k dps MORE in BM then I did with Marks. Then again I'm alot better with BM then marks.

BM:16,690.01

Marks:16,614.04

This is because you need to enable hardcasting Aimed Shot during certain periods (RF/BL, Careful Aim), otherwise it assumes you NEVER hardcast (and at certain times, you should). You should change Aimed Shot Behaviour to say "manual during CA and instant", and change Max Speed To Cast to whatever Aimed is with RF up; that bumped my dps up by nearly 1400. Keep in mind FD does NOT average in times where your pet cannot attack, like if you have to go a 15sec stretch where you can't KC, these mechanic are not taken intpo account by FD.

Sylvia; KC can crit for 50k, I've seen 70k but all CDs were blown- trinkets, orc racial, etc so the pet was getting all those buffs. I've never seen Arcane crit for over 20k. that's over 2 or 3x LESS than KC.

[Zaphoed]

I raid BM with another hunter in our 10 man They Play MM/Srvl I play BM/Srvl depending on fights. I am also out geared by a bit but I am generaly within 1-2k dps of them. Pet plays a huge portion of it. Check your buffs and use a pet that is going to boost what is missing. Fights like Cho'gal and Beth'tilac we both go Srvl as we are dealing with a larger number of adds.

Gen I carry a ravager, Spirit Beast, Devilsaur as my main raiding pets. Ravager if we we have both agility and crit buffs out.

Also I gen will take my excess hit and Mastery and put it into crit and haste depending on what i need. I want that magic 1 sec with either rapid fire or Bloodlust. After that Mastery can have a home on the gear.

[Carnacki]

There's a few reasons why BM will lag behind MM until it is fixed and buffed.

MM scales well, BM does not. This is because MM scales more with ranged weapon damage than BM. BM will lag behind MM the better your ranged weapon gets.

BM relies on pet AI which is all too often buggy. Any fight where the boss moves or takes to the air or has portions of the terrain a pet can bug on, your dps will drastically decrease. (Note, this effects MM/SV as well, but they aren't reliant on their pets for a large portion of their damage and do not use Kill Command.)

Kill Command is buggy. It needs a range buff or needs to be scrapped altogether and the BM hunter given something that doesn't rely on your pet being in range for 100% of the time to work.



Due to these issues, if you're raiding heroic content and need every bit of dps possible, you should be Marks. This does not apply if your raid group is missing the %dmg buff, or Bloodlust as being BM to have these buffs will benefit your raid more than being MM.

For those who say that BM is easier, there is no fundamental difference between any of the specs, they all function the same and have rotations which do not require much though, take the time to make sure your rotation, glyphs, macros and talents/pet talents are in the same place. You'll be surprised.


Long story short, if your guild is wiping on heroic Baeleroc because of a 1-2% margin and you've been there all night, go respec. Otherwise, play whatever the hell you want, you're not in my raid group.

[Kalliope]

There's a few reasons why BM will lag behind MM until it is fixed and buffed.

Oddly enough, Frostheim just posted on this subject: http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/08/11/scatt ... r-scaling/

[Nightsights]

here's the discussion on wow hunter forums

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2973251843

[Lisaara]

I've become a trainer of BMs on my server...horde and alliance. XD

I love that articles last bit and totally agree....and proves MM really isnt that far ahead of BM.

Very nice read. I really like the ending bit...

At best, what we can say is that BM needs not just a little DPS buff, but also a wee scaling buff. Not a big one, but something to gain it just a percent or two. Perhaps boost the BM mastery so it's not as clearly behind the other secondary stats?

But as for MM drastically outscaling the other hunter specs? Myth busted.

[Carnacki]

Love the Frostheim fanboys. Try reading some of the comments on his article.