I don't like this patch anymore..

[Worba]

It's almost better to ignore Multi-shot altogether in 5-mans.

That's what I've been thinking as well; I'm probably going to re-arrange my MM hunter's talent points onto something more useful than multi-shot.

Does anyone happen to know if aimed shot is now powerful enough to use it outside of the proc? Since the last tuneup, it seems like kill command is fine, exp shot is worth doing off-proc at least for a quick fight, just not sure about aimed...

[Kalliope]

*headscratch* I can get more multis off that that.

As BM, I pop BW for the reduced focus cost.
As marks, I have two points in Bombardment. Multishot crits reduce the cost of the next Multishot by half. I crit a LOT.

Survival has traps for assisted AoE.

Maybe it's cause I'm geared and everything dies super-quickly regardless of the rest of the group, but I'm not having too much trouble with multi.

And no, I still would not use aimed shot outside of the proc. That's a hella long cast time.

[Troubleshot]

*headscratch* I can get more multis off that that.

As BM, I pop BW for the reduced focus cost.
As marks, I have two points in Bombardment. Multishot crits reduce the cost of the next Multishot by half. I crit a LOT.

As Marks that would be a good talented use of it that props it up as a useful "stand alone" ability.

But as BM (which I always have been) using BW kills the "stand alone" quality of the power and basically requires the use of BW to make it worth anything at all... and also kills your use of BW for more important single targets.

I guess my point is that AoE stuff (for ALL classes really) should be useful as a "stand alone" FIRST, before being enhanced by other powers.

[Worba]

Thing is, I had the pts in bombardment (and her crit is a healthy 45%) but nonetheless my MM hunter's AOE dps was atrocious, I'm talking like down by at least 50%... and that was with the aid of an exp trap.

In 3.3 when Khitsune did HHOR, I'd just put down an explosive trap, back off and start a volley... and within the first couple ticks my DPS was top of the chart, or occasionally a close second. I didn't even need to bother with multi back then, save for once in a while if I was mopping up the last couple mobs.

Now... well let's just say her AOE reminds me of what it was like back when she was in greens and blues.

I'm fairly optimistic about what her single target DPS could be, but as above that's based mainly just off target dummy work so far... either way though, having to use single target DPS on trash is going to get annoying.

[TygerDarkstorm]

BW on trash really doesn't kill its use for single target. With it glyphed (which all BM hunters should have now imo as it's only a major glyph) it's only ~1 minute CD. If you know you're coming up to a trash pull that's just before a boss, don't use it. Since when did recount meters mean anything on trash anyway?

I don't have issues with multi-shot, both as BM and SV. In fact, after the changes, my hunter and pally have seen more love than they had pre-4.0.1. I guess I got lucky getting a beta key and got to get some practice with the focus system before it went live. Personally, I love the new system. If you're having as much trouble regenning focus as some of you say you are for using multi-shot in AoE pulls, then you either need to get more haste, or start single targeting AoE pulls.

Somebody else mentioned it before, and I'd like to mention it again. If you're BM, a worm is pretty ungodly for any sort of AoE dps. Send your worm in, pop BW, KC, Burrow attack, multi-shot, weave in SS as needed. You should net some pretty decent AoE numbers. I know I was pretty impressed with my newly re-tamed jormungar for AoE pulls. This is just my two cents, and I hope the changes start weeding out bad/fotm hunters and pallies.

[Worba]

BW on trash really doesn't kill its use for single target. With it glyphed (which all BM hunters should have now imo as it's only a major glyph) it's only ~1 minute CD. If you know you're coming up to a trash pull that's just before a boss, don't use it. Since when did recount meters mean anything on trash anyway?

I don't have issues with multi-shot, both as BM and SV. In fact, after the changes, my hunter and pally have seen more love than they had pre-4.0.1. I guess I got lucky getting a beta key and got to get some practice with the focus system before it went live. Personally, I love the new system. If you're having as much trouble regenning focus as some of you say you are for using multi-shot in AoE pulls, then you either need to get more haste, or start single targeting AoE pulls.

Somebody else mentioned it before, and I'd like to mention it again. If you're BM, a worm is pretty ungodly for any sort of AoE dps. Send your worm in, pop BW, KC, Burrow attack, multi-shot, weave in SS as needed. You should net some pretty decent AoE numbers. I know I was pretty impressed with my newly re-tamed jormungar for AoE pulls. This is just my two cents, and I hope the changes start weeding out bad/fotm hunters and pallies.

BW doesn't apply to the case I was talking about, as Khitsune is MM (that's why she had access to bombardment)

[TygerDarkstorm]

BW doesn't apply to the case I was talking about, as Khitsune is MM (that's why she had access to bombardment)

My comment was directed to the people who were talking about BW. If I had been making a direct reference to you, I would have quoted you.

[Worba]

I was going off the "trash dps" mention.

[Kalliope]

Thing is, I had the pts in bombardment (and her crit is a healthy 45%) but nonetheless my MM hunter's AOE dps was atrocious, I'm talking like down by at least 50%... and that was with the aid of an exp trap.

I'm not bothering with explosive trap; maybe that's part of the problem.

[Worba]

Thing is, I had the pts in bombardment (and her crit is a healthy 45%) but nonetheless my MM hunter's AOE dps was atrocious, I'm talking like down by at least 50%... and that was with the aid of an exp trap.

I'm not bothering with explosive trap; maybe that's part of the problem.

But that should help if anything - I placed it while waiting in the corner with the rest of the group, so there was no impact on GCD or focus for that matter (since my focus had come back up by the time the first wave of mobs reached us).

I know in 3.3 getting in an exp trap made a hefty 15-20% improvement in my DPS since I had improved traps... I'm not expecting that to still hold true now that we barely get any offspec talents but c'mon, how can a free exp trap hurt?

[Kalliope]

Thing is, I had the pts in bombardment (and her crit is a healthy 45%) but nonetheless my MM hunter's AOE dps was atrocious, I'm talking like down by at least 50%... and that was with the aid of an exp trap.

I'm not bothering with explosive trap; maybe that's part of the problem.

But that should help if anything - I placed it while waiting in the corner with the rest of the group, so there was no impact on GCD or focus for that matter (since my focus had come back up by the time the first wave of mobs reached us).

I know in 3.3 getting in an exp trap made a hefty 15-20% improvement in my DPS since I had improved traps... I'm not expecting that to still hold true now that we barely get any offspec talents but c'mon, how can a free exp trap hurt?

Well, I was thinking more for chain pulls. But yeah, no improved traps until 85, so of course they won't help as much.

[Troubleshot]

BW on trash really doesn't kill its use for single target. With it glyphed (which all BM hunters should have now imo as it's only a major glyph) it's only ~1 minute CD. If you know you're coming up to a trash pull that's just before a boss, don't use it.

True enough about waiting on the BM activation, but I suspect that Cata is going to sneak in more pulls where you have a central tough mob that is surrounded by AE trash... I haven't been in beta, so maybe not. If they do, BM will be forced to do either/or damage rather than be effective at both.

Since when did recount meters mean anything on trash anyway?

To be honest, as long as the bosses fall and the party progresses, Recount is meaningless "period". Doing 1k dps or 40k dps against a boss is meaningless as long as the boss dies and the repair bills are not piling up.

Recounts only actual use (IMHO anyway) is as a post-fight diagnostic to see where points can be shaved in order for better output (for those times when the bosses are NOT getting offed properly).

This is just my two cents, and I hope the changes start weeding out bad/fotm hunters and pallies.

This only works to a small degree. When "weeding" gets to effective, people stop playing... then we cycle back to "bring on the easy" in order to encourage more less-skilled players to play. It's a cycle that will go on and on.

[Lisaara]

Guh. Reminds me of how people post their recount after EVERY. SINGLE. PULL. ><; When i tell them to stop cause it's not necessary, I get bitched out.

[Kalliope]

Recount only "matters" on bosses as a measure for single target dps. Posting it after every pull is stupid.

[TygerDarkstorm]

BW on trash really doesn't kill its use for single target. With it glyphed (which all BM hunters should have now imo as it's only a major glyph) it's only ~1 minute CD. If you know you're coming up to a trash pull that's just before a boss, don't use it.

True enough about waiting on the BM activation, but I suspect that Cata is going to sneak in more pulls where you have a central tough mob that is surrounded by AE trash... I haven't been in beta, so maybe not. If they do, BM will be forced to do either/or damage rather than be effective at both.

Since when did recount meters mean anything on trash anyway?

To be honest, as long as the bosses fall and the party progresses, Recount is meaningless "period". Doing 1k dps or 40k dps against a boss is meaningless as long as the boss dies and the repair bills are not piling up.

Recounts only actual use (IMHO anyway) is as a post-fight diagnostic to see where points can be shaved in order for better output (for those times when the bosses are NOT getting offed properly).

This is just my two cents, and I hope the changes start weeding out bad/fotm hunters and pallies.

This only works to a small degree. When "weeding" gets to effective, people stop playing... then we cycle back to "bring on the easy" in order to encourage more less-skilled players to play. It's a cycle that will go on and on.

I agree entirely. I don't really believe in recount either, so long as shit dies that's all I care about. I was remarking on how others were concerned over their decline in dps. If you lost dps after the patch, I feel for you, but focus was Blizzard's original design for hunters, and it took them five years to implement it, so we're all stuck learning it as best we can.

Unfortunately, I haven't done any high end stuff in beta, no randoms or anything because I've been too lazy to copy addons over to beta, so I don't have insight as to how hunters are at the later levels. =(
I imagine that once we get our final tools, we'll be better off (like most other classes will be) after we start leveling and getting to 85. I think the goal with cata randoms will be more focus on taking out the target of the tank, and less focus on AoE (which is why AoE damage got nerfed across the board). I think we'll be planning BW use the same as we do now, weaving it on trash in between bosses.

And yes, if the "weeding" process is too harsh, we risk losing too many people who play the class. People who I know in game that are trying to re-learn their hunters, I always advise them to go BM. IMO, it's the easier of the specs to learn (I've never played MM so it may be easier) and one of the easiest ways to learn the focus system. At BM's simplest, you just hit KC on CD and SS to re-fuel focus. As you get comfortable, you start weaving in SrS, AS, KC, and SS together.

[Worba]

I usually only see it once at the end of the whole run, if at all. I never post unless someone requests me to.

If I did group with someone who spammed recount after every fight, I'd put them on /ignore same as the people who use addons to /yell PLAYERX IS USING SPELL RANK 6, RANK 7 IS AVAILABLE everytime someone casts a spell that can be upgraded (many of which addons actually are posting incorrect info to begin with).

Funny enough when I do see someone post recount DPS results, they are usually 3rd or 4th place. It's like waving a report card with C- under your peers' noses and striking an important pose... why even bother?

(and BM is easier to learn than MM... mastering either obviously takes time and skill, but if we're just talking about getting started, BM is more forgiving)

EDIT: also, recount has its uses - yes, bringing down the boss is the desired end result but it's always nice to see who is doing what % of the work. Otherwise you can't weed out the people who are just looking to be carried or even finetune overall performance, and the group won't be able to progress to tougher (and more rewarding) content.

And it's absolutely wonderful to have for those times when some jerk is criticizing your performance, saying you're a terrible DPS... and lo and behold you pop out the numbers and leave them standing there mouth agape, exposed as blathering idiots with no clue.

That alone is priceless.

[TygerDarkstorm]

EDIT: also, recount has its uses - yes, bringing down the boss is the desired end result but it's always nice to see who is doing what % of the work. Otherwise you can't weed out the people who are just looking to be carried or even finetune overall performance, and the group won't be able to progress to tougher (and more rewarding) content.

And it's absolutely wonderful to have for those times when some jerk is criticizing your performance, saying you're a terrible DPS... and lo and behold you pop out the numbers and leave them standing their mouth agape, exposed as blathering idiots with no clue.

That alone is priceless.

I fully agree with your whole post (and thank you for confirming my thoughts on BM being the easiest spec to learn focus with), but just wanted to point out this part. ^_^
Waaayy before 4.0.1 we had a hunter running around on my server claiming he was tough shit and all that good stuff. He was someone I had out-dpsed a couple of times previously and he claimed he had no idea what I was talking about and that I was a baddy. So he came with my hunter to our GDKP (back when ToC was "end game") and I spanked him out of the park while doing orbs as well. Needless to say, he shut up after that.

I have people ask for recount posts on trash pulls, my response is always the same. I tell them I'll post it after a boss because trash means nothing. My biggest pet peeve with recount, though, has to be people using it in low level dungeons as a means to flex their epeen. I got kicked from a dungeon while leveling my BM hunter because her dps (on trash mind you; I had been #1 on the boss) was too low, even though there was a feral druid in the group doing far worse than myself. People get into weird mindsets with GS and Recount. =/

[Kalliope]

Lawl....

RankWatch was right. It took downranked spells from the combat log. If you were getting those warnings, then you WERE downranking. You may have KNOWN the full ranks, but you were USING downranked ones.

Of course, there are no spell ranks anymore, so it's all moot, but just letting you know.

[TygerDarkstorm]

RankWatch was so evil...always catching my unsuspecting dual spec whose bars I forgot to set highest ranks on.
In the end though, it made me start checking my bars all the time.

[Worba]

Lawl....

RankWatch was right. It took downranked spells from the combat log. If you were getting those warnings, then you WERE downranking. You may have KNOWN the full ranks, but you were USING downranked ones.

Of course, there are no spell ranks anymore, so it's all moot, but just letting you know.

Yeah, actually the addon was indeed wrong as I mentioned - this was a month or so before 4.0, and all of my spells were confirmed to be AT max available rank... and I was USING them at max rank.

Just letting you know.