I don't like this patch anymore..

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Lisaara
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Lisaara »

Slickrock wrote:
Raydex-of-the-dawn wrote:
Saturo wrote:Okay, maybe so, Raydex. But Mastery was DEFINITELY added to make balancing easier. "OMG MM IS OP!" "That's okay, we'll just remove ten percent of the benefit they get from mastery."
I think they even said that directly xD Yeah, Blizz wants to make their lives easier. At the moment, I'm seeing my MM DPS lower than SV/BM, actually, but that's probably because I have no clue what I'm doing.
Wait to see how scaling turns out. And we are already seeing waves of buffs and nerfs, which will continue. It's gonna be a wild ride to 85. Just play a spec that you enjoy now, and be glad you have 3 dps specs to choose from.

There are other hidden changes that Blizz has made that we haven't figured out yet, like the latest BM nerf. (KC no longer effected by Mastery).
^ This. Thank you. No sense in QQing when we got a long way to go from now. 2 more patches before Cata THEN the ride to 85.

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Slickrock »

Taluwen wrote: ^ This. Thank you. No sense in QQing when we got a long way to go from now. 2 more patches before Cata THEN the ride to 85.
Yeah, the swings are too wild now.. the only thing you can glean right now is core rotational changes (which Saturo hates with MM), and functional changes (like I hate on my pally).

No reason to get upset about dps now.. I suspect a lot of the fixes Blizz is making now as a result of QQ are going to result in nerfs at 85. What I think is happening is that casters are able to master their new rotations easier than melee classes now, and that's resulting in the QQ (with hunters stuck in the middle).
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Worba »

cowmuflage wrote:No its ture they ruind MM *sigh*
I know what you mean. It used to be that chimera shot required some thinking to use properly, and aimed shot used to work in macros...
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Saturo »

Worba wrote:
cowmuflage wrote:No its ture they ruind MM *sigh*
I know what you mean. It used to be that chimera shot required some thinking to use properly, and aimed shot used to work in macros...
Also, MM used to be 85.3 times more fun to play.

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Slickrock »

Saturo wrote:
Worba wrote:
cowmuflage wrote:No its ture they ruind MM *sigh*
I know what you mean. It used to be that chimera shot required some thinking to use properly, and aimed shot used to work in macros...
Also, MM used to be 85.3 times more fun to play.
And that's a valid gripe. But you can choose not to play it, (like me with my pally).

But stuff changes...
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Antares »

My bf pointed out today (via txt):

Me: So tired of ppl saying WoW is becoming EZ mode. Its everywhere! You don't think this do you?!

Him:
(1/2)I think that current content has become less relevant as they made players stronger. But it's no different then upgrading gear. It
(2/2)also gives them months of massive tests and balancing so we don't wafflestomp cata in one day.

Yes, I use a flip phone and he has an iPhone. :(

I tend to agree with him. You can only test so much on PTRs with X Number of Limited Player base that uses PTR. 12 million subscribers and two months to tes, rebalance and patch is much better.

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Lisaara »

Antares wrote:My bf pointed out today (via txt):

Me: So tired of ppl saying WoW is becoming EZ mode. Its everywhere! You don't think this do you?!

Him:
(1/2)I think that current content has become less relevant as they made players stronger. But it's no different then upgrading gear. It
(2/2)also gives them months of massive tests and balancing so we don't wafflestomp cata in one day.

Yes, I use a flip phone and he has an iPhone. :(

I tend to agree with him. You can only test so much on PTRs with X Number of Limited Player base that uses PTR. 12 million subscribers and two months to tes, rebalance and patch is much better.
And he is 100% correct. I dont wanna roflstomp cata like WotLK was. WotLK made people so lazy and got their heads so far up their butt thinking they're uber it isnt funny so a total change I still deem was necessary, especially to kick them off their high horses.

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Worba »

Taluwen wrote:
Antares wrote:My bf pointed out today (via txt):

Me: So tired of ppl saying WoW is becoming EZ mode. Its everywhere! You don't think this do you?!

Him:
(1/2)I think that current content has become less relevant as they made players stronger. But it's no different then upgrading gear. It
(2/2)also gives them months of massive tests and balancing so we don't wafflestomp cata in one day.

Yes, I use a flip phone and he has an iPhone. :(

I tend to agree with him. You can only test so much on PTRs with X Number of Limited Player base that uses PTR. 12 million subscribers and two months to tes, rebalance and patch is much better.
And he is 100% correct. I dont wanna roflstomp cata like WotLK was. WotLK made people so lazy and got their heads so far up their butt thinking they're uber it isnt funny so a total change I still deem was necessary, especially to kick them off their high horses.
If BM had taken a step back along with MM than I'd agree with you but it didn't - and I'm not even talking about power levels right now*, just the feel of the class.

Pre-4.0 chimera shot reacted differently to different stings, and if you had no sting on the target then chim shot was less powerful overall - now, it's kind of like an arcane shot that happens to also refresh SS... if you have it on. If not? No biggie... the new "big shot"? We're backed to the stone age version aimed shot we had back in classic, e.g. a really big club we use from a distance. There is no subtlety to using aimed shot like there was with CS.

*I'm not going to say anything about MM's DPS until I've had a chance to run a few randoms.
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Slickrock »

To be fair, the MM crowd on EJ (which is 90% of the crowd there) really doesn't like the MM changes either.
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Antares »

Taluwen wrote:
Antares wrote:My bf pointed out today (via txt):

Me: So tired of ppl saying WoW is becoming EZ mode. Its everywhere! You don't think this do you?!

Him:
(1/2)I think that current content has become less relevant as they made players stronger. But it's no different then upgrading gear. It
(2/2)also gives them months of massive tests and balancing so we don't wafflestomp cata in one day.

Yes, I use a flip phone and he has an iPhone. :(

I tend to agree with him. You can only test so much on PTRs with X Number of Limited Player base that uses PTR. 12 million subscribers and two months to tes, rebalance and patch is much better.
And he is 100% correct. I dont wanna roflstomp cata like WotLK was. WotLK made people so lazy and got their heads so far up their butt thinking they're uber it isnt funny so a total change I still deem was necessary, especially to kick them off their high horses.
Can I have your babies? :D ;) <3

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Lisaara »

Antares wrote:
Taluwen wrote:
Antares wrote:My bf pointed out today (via txt):

Me: So tired of ppl saying WoW is becoming EZ mode. Its everywhere! You don't think this do you?!

Him:
(1/2)I think that current content has become less relevant as they made players stronger. But it's no different then upgrading gear. It
(2/2)also gives them months of massive tests and balancing so we don't wafflestomp cata in one day.

Yes, I use a flip phone and he has an iPhone. :(

I tend to agree with him. You can only test so much on PTRs with X Number of Limited Player base that uses PTR. 12 million subscribers and two months to tes, rebalance and patch is much better.
And he is 100% correct. I dont wanna roflstomp cata like WotLK was. WotLK made people so lazy and got their heads so far up their butt thinking they're uber it isnt funny so a total change I still deem was necessary, especially to kick them off their high horses.
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Kalliope »

Worba wrote:Pre-4.0 chimera shot reacted differently to different stings, and if you had no sting on the target then chim shot was less powerful overall - now, it's kind of like an arcane shot that happens to also refresh SS... if you have it on. If not? No biggie... the new "big shot"? We're backed to the stone age version aimed shot we had back in classic, e.g. a really big club we use from a distance. There is no subtlety to using aimed shot like there was with CS.

*I'm not going to say anything about MM's DPS until I've had a chance to run a few randoms.
My dps is lower than it once was, but I can still pull a good 9.1k on the fire boss in VoA as marks. It just took a little getting used to. I mostly ignore aimed shot except when the proc is up. It's just too long a cast to incorporate otherwise.

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Nimizar »

Slickrock wrote:There are other hidden changes that Blizz has made that we haven't figured out yet, like the latest BM nerf. (KC no longer effected by Mastery).
Given that Blizz have explicitly said that KC is meant to be affected by pet damage bonuses, including the BM mastery, that's more likely to be a bug than an intentional nerf (KC being affected by mastery is what keeps a proper rotation in front of Arcane spam for BM).

Mastery is not the mechanic Blizzard added to help with class tuning (instead, it is there to help with providing itemisation choices, since it is a stat everyone will want, casters, physical DPS, tanks and healers alike). It is the talent tree passive bonuses that help with class balance. We've already seen that in action with the mage adjustments post 4.0.1 - rather than tweaking specific spells, Blizz were able to just adjust the dials on the individual tree bonuses to Arcane/Fire/Frost damage to bring all 3 specs more in line with where Blizz wanted them to be. The chose to adjust individual abilities on other classes, so I suspect they weren't happy with the proportions of where damage was coming from in those cases.

As far as the hybrid talent specs go, they were almost always either overpowered (in which case Blizzard always nerfed them) or else ineffective for any of the competitive elements of the game, thus providing only an illusion of choice (if you cared in the slightest about not wasting the time of the people you were grouped with, you didn't use hybrid specs). Locking people into their trees for 31 points means Blizzard can start handing out cool abilities like Fervor, Focus Fire and Silencing Shot earlier in the levelling process without having to worry about 21/20 builds that prove to be unintentionally effective. This allows the trees to start diverging earlier for all classes, so you can "feel like" your spec sooner. The freedom of choice in the new trees comes from the fact that (in general) they're designed to only contain 25-27 talents that consistently assist with the primary role of the spec. This always leaves a few points free for utility talents, even when the 10 "off spec" points go directly into benefiting the primary role (as is the case for hunters). SV hasn't reached that state (unless you count trash and AoE DPS talents as mere utility), but MM and BM are both there.

And yeah, the EJ forums have been pretty slow since it doesn't make any sense for them to dig too deeply into things while all the class mechanics were still in such heavy flux. Expect to see them pick back up again around mid-December as more people start getting live characters to level 85. (The lack of updates on the EJ front page is fairly meaningless. Praetorian pretty much only posts there if EJ are actively recruiting to fill slots or there's a boss kill shot he wants to post)
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Miyon »

I have tried to respecc, but as my tree only were a few points off from the BM one there, I don't notice much difference. Also, I like to have two points in Pathfinding. :p

I did answer this, but apparently my post didn't get submitted, and now when I came back to check, I had a lot to read up on xD

But yeah.. I'm starting to get used to this, a little. Still don't like it though.

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Anyia »

Rakkyo wrote:But yeah.. I'm starting to get used to this, a little. Still don't like it though.
Ugh, I know what you mean. I was really looking forward to the mana-to-focus change, but the focus system is so much less forgiving than mana ever was. I've spent two days just rejigging my cooldown monitors, and while I've managed to improve dummy dps from 4k to 6.1k (BM), I'm still far from comfortable with the new system. Hopefully it'll get better the more I play...
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Worba »

Kalliope wrote:
Worba wrote:Pre-4.0 chimera shot reacted differently to different stings, and if you had no sting on the target then chim shot was less powerful overall - now, it's kind of like an arcane shot that happens to also refresh SS... if you have it on. If not? No biggie... the new "big shot"? We're backed to the stone age version aimed shot we had back in classic, e.g. a really big club we use from a distance. There is no subtlety to using aimed shot like there was with CS.

*I'm not going to say anything about MM's DPS until I've had a chance to run a few randoms.
My dps is lower than it once was, but I can still pull a good 9.1k on the fire boss in VoA as marks. It just took a little getting used to. I mostly ignore aimed shot except when the proc is up. It's just too long a cast to incorporate otherwise.
What rotation do you use?

This is what I've been using on the target dummies, but I'm not very happy with it:

opener:

serp / aimed / steady / chim

rotation:

steady x 2 (for the talent proc) / aimed / steady / chim
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by SpiritBinder »

Anyia wrote:
Rakkyo wrote:But yeah.. I'm starting to get used to this, a little. Still don't like it though.
Ugh, I know what you mean. I was really looking forward to the mana-to-focus change, but the focus system is so much less forgiving than mana ever was. I've spent two days just rejigging my cooldown monitors, and while I've managed to improve dummy dps from 4k to 6.1k (BM), I'm still far from comfortable with the new system. Hopefully it'll get better the more I play...
^ This

I could only get to about 6.3 on the dummy too. I'm on a different spec now, but compared to what I could to before, I wont even go there. As for getting to like it, the focus has just made it a bit to clunky to be comforatble for me atm. I think it's just the "must cast SS" to get back focus to do anything that is annoying me the most. It's not enough to weave and control your shots and cooldowns and procs, but when you try and you know somehting is about to proc or come off cooldown to then get "not enough focus" /sigh... and then I'm.. "Oh, ok well lets put everything on hold, stop thinking what do to next until I shoot a SS or 2.... now where was I, oh thats right trying to dps and weave my shots..."

I just hope I can learn to like it, My hunter is the only toon that means anything to me.... No hunter, no wow. :|

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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Selethias »

Taluwen wrote:
Antares wrote:My bf pointed out today (via txt):

Me: So tired of ppl saying WoW is becoming EZ mode. Its everywhere! You don't think this do you?!

Him:
(1/2)I think that current content has become less relevant as they made players stronger. But it's no different then upgrading gear. It
(2/2)also gives them months of massive tests and balancing so we don't wafflestomp cata in one day.

Yes, I use a flip phone and he has an iPhone. :(

I tend to agree with him. You can only test so much on PTRs with X Number of Limited Player base that uses PTR. 12 million subscribers and two months to tes, rebalance and patch is much better.
And he is 100% correct. I dont wanna roflstomp cata like WotLK was. WotLK made people so lazy and got their heads so far up their butt thinking they're uber it isnt funny so a total change I still deem was necessary, especially to kick them off their high horses.
Agree 100% on the above.

Now, I was in ICC last night ( I am currently SV with 12% mastery) and my single target dps SUCKS but I think I figured out why. As stated earlier, focus is not forgiving at all and what I find myself doing is reacting like pre 4.0.1. Specifically I hit a shot if that shot does not show a cooldown timer. Needless to say this burns all my focus. I went up 3k dps (5k to 8k) when I started forcing myself to stick to the rotation NO MATTER WHAT unless LnL had procced (which, by the way, it looks like they fixed the tick bug that made you weave a steady or other shot in before you could hit your next free ExS). This meant Special - Steady - Steady - Special to keep my focus reserve up. It's a real ***** to do though after spending the last year plus training myself to catch shots that were off CD.

The thing that makes this especially difficult is the new cast time for steady. With it being slower than gcd I constantly find myself missing shots because steady is still casting. Beyond the Steady issue I found my UI (I went back to basic blizz after patch) constantly hanging and I also found myself fighting the ui skill queue (UI would fire another steady shot and block my attempt to fire a diff shot because I spam steady as a habit from pre 4.0.1) a lot.

All in all, to me anyway, the jury is out on this. Right now things are just to damn unforgiving and I can see a lot of hunters losing raid spots to other classes because we are AFU from this change. I really feel for anyone that has high latency with these changes.
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by ForestTroll »

I never liked MM, so this patch is epic for me as I LOVE explosive shot. Although BM has me wondering like; I have a kind of noob friend who plays a hunter he's good at learning his class after awhile but he normally asks me to help him along in terms of specs however I just can't figure out a BM spec. Nor am I able to list the rotations but oh well I'll just mess around with BM once this hunter hits 80 and stick to my SV spec till then :P
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Re: I don't like this patch anymore..

Unread post by Kalliope »

Worba wrote:
Kalliope wrote:My dps is lower than it once was, but I can still pull a good 9.1k on the fire boss in VoA as marks. It just took a little getting used to. I mostly ignore aimed shot except when the proc is up. It's just too long a cast to incorporate otherwise.
What rotation do you use?

This is what I've been using on the target dummies, but I'm not very happy with it:

opener:

serp / aimed / steady / chim

rotation:

steady x 2 (for the talent proc) / aimed / steady / chim
I'm sticking with serp->chimera->arcane->arcane->steady->steady for openers, then just kinda feeling my way out from there, weaving arcanes and steadies as focus allows, popping chimera and the instant aimed when they're up.

My dps was lower without/with fewer arcanes. You want to use focus for arcane as much as possible to proc Sic 'Em. Sic 'Em is essentially giving Owl's Focus to your pet without it necessarily being a cunning pet, plus the arcane/aimed crit to proc it is far more reliable than the RNG of Owl's Focus.

Mind you, I'm not even fully PvE specced or glyphed yet. I intend to plop in the steady glyph, which will be a nice increase. Possibly the arcane glyph will help as well. I'm running with dual PvP specs at the moment, so my initial instincts were to glyph accordingly. Posthaste is INCREDIBLY fun, I'd like to add. :D

Marked for Death is a huge time saver, since you don't have to apply hunter's mark at all. Between arcane and chimera, that thing is gonna be up all the time. Plus, you can have more than one mark for death up at once.

My BM rotation has been a bit trickier to figure out. I've basically wiggled KC in with the two arcanes instead of chimera and replaced the aimed shot proc with Focus Fire. KC gets hit earlier than chimera, of course, but on an opener, it might be in the same place, due to the pet having to run in first. The icky part of the rotation right now is weaving in serpent sting globals. That of course will be fixed with cobra shot. I haven't tested BM in a raid yet, so I can't speak to my numbers there. It's VERY difficult to gauge anything from heroics. Fights simply don't last long enough for focus fire to proc at its max power (or if you're marks, instant aimed doesn't have time to proc).

I'm sure there's room for improvement in both; this is just what I've figured out on my own. I'm sure that EJ covers stuff I haven't even considered.

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