Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

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Spitfire
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Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#1 Unread post by Spitfire » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:48 am

First... Greetings to my fellow hunters!!

I would like to share an experience of me.

I'm having some difficulties choosing the best setup in dungeons, especially heroics, with keeping my pet's alive. First of all they always get forgotten so they hardly receive any heals or buffs.

Last time I was in heroic with my bear which has Tenacity talents which are pretty good for tanking i might add.. and i've set them on tanking combined with my own survival build. My gear is full epic so I have about 24000 hp unbuffed and my pet benefits from my stamina and has got about 20000 hp.. this is pretty good or at least enough I think so.
Then (like many times before) I had buffs but my pet didn't have any buffs the whole time. pet's get forgotten so many times..

But anyway my bear died 3 times in a row in this single heroic.. then when i asked for some heals and buffs for my pet I received a big mouth into my face from the healer and others from the party... so i just left them as angry as I was...

Then the next day i was doing heroic again with my bear and i got a big mouth from the healer claiming he knows a lot about hunters.. he asked me why the hell i was using a tank pet.. he told me i should get a dps pet. So i told him no,.. i need a tank pet because otherwise it would die way too often. and i am not a beast master.. I am survival build anyway so i don't really need my pet to do dps.. I get most of my dps from my ranged attacks... the difference in dps and tank pets isn't very much anyway.
But the next thing that happened we wiped in the pit of saron on tyrannes, last boss.. Then the healer quickly started to blame me and that my pet pulled a different group of mobs accidentally... while in fact the healer was standing too close to the other group of mobs himself and pulled them. it really wasn't my pet.!! he was on tryannes the whole time together with our tank.

I'm sure many of you also experienced this kinda sad situation before.

And I think blizzard should do something about this.. personally i think the amount of talents pets have really isn't enough... if we don't have the extra 4+ talents from BM we can't even get to choose the last pet-talents 2x "Wild Hunt". we get it only 1x.
Personally I think blizzard should add at least 2 more talent points for non-BM and BM hunters.

We as hunter claim to be master of animals but in fact while our pets can't really do that much good at all. Most of em are good just for their looks or handy ability. this is just my experience so far.
But hopefully I'll get some better ones soon :)

I also have a beast master build with spirit beasts loque'nahak and Arcturis but my experience is that i do more damage with my survival build in heroics. And many hunters surely must agree with me on this. I also love BM more!! but it's just that survival hunters do more damage since WotlK came out. Or maybe do i see this wrong?

Maybe someone else has a good idea about a better pet/talent setup? or a plan to confront blizzard about this problem.. haha? :D

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#2 Unread post by Ghanur » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:16 pm

You need group members with an IQ far higher than room temperature - would solve your problem.

Or don't fight with your pet, keep it in the pocket ;)

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#3 Unread post by Orni » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:35 pm

Ghanur wrote: Or don't fight with your pet, keep it in the pocket ;)
Which would be the same as equiping a lvl 40 ranged weapon.

Pets do a significant amount of our damage, regardless of the talent build.
Even a survival Hunter needs his pet since it's doing about 25% of his damage.

I do agree on this topic.
I think:

MM should get a talent, to deep to be reachable for BM, like this:
2-Point talent "Your ranged critical hits heal your pet for [2%/4%] of it's total life."

And Survival should get something like this, also deep:
2-Point talent "Your pet will get healed for [12%/24%] of your physical damage."

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#4 Unread post by Kalliope » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:17 pm

Actually....ALL hunter pets get avoidance passively now; you don't even have to spec for it. That's a 90% AoE damage reduction. There aren't that many encounters in heroics where your pet should be dying. In this case, I'd say that your bear got hated on for being a tenacity pet and was therefore deliberately scorned (this is why I don't run with my dear Ursa; I couldn't stand seeing him get abused like this).

With that in mind, what sort of fights does your pet die on? Is it to AoE damage, like whirlwinds? Are you sending your pet onto a different target than the one the tank is mainly tanking? I've seen hunter pets die repeatedly to that, since tanks can't be bothered taunting off a pet. Are you sending your pet in too early? Is your pet pulling additional trash packs and thusly getting initial aggro? Is there some chance that growl is still on? When your pet died three times in a row, had you healed him before sending him back in? I don't usually trust healers to do that, unless they have passive AoE heals that are going to hit my pet. Also, I just checked your armory and your bear doesn't seem to have talent points distributed. That's going to cut down on his survivability in a big way.

Regardless of what's going on with your pet, it is VERY IMPORTANT that all hunters understand that even if they're not BM, their pet still has an effect on their dps. While we try to sort out why your pets are dying, I suggest you get a wolf and leave him/her on passive at your side. The way the wolf ability works, it triggers even without the wolf being in the thick of combat, so you're getting a very nice damage buff with virtually no risk to your pet.

While I would love to have some pet-buffing abilities in marks or surv, that's pretty much all BM has going for it, outside of exotics, so I'd actually rather not see that sort of buff to the other trees. As you already noted, marks and surv hunters will do more damage than BM hunters (given equal specs/gear/buffs/etc.) in this expansion. It doesn't seem that Blizz thinks that they need less squishy pets on top of that.

P.S. lol, was that healer in Pit standing too close to the cave? That's about the only way of pulling those mobs, so unless the tank had to drag Tyrannus that close to the door, chances are pretty slim that it was your pet. After all, if it'd happened when you called your pet out of the fight, then you would have had to have been standing near the cave yourself, and thusly would have pulled them yourself, even without your pet!

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#5 Unread post by Gacheru » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:37 pm

I'm in the camp that says use whatever pet you want and ignore the people who tell you how to play your class. I eventually caved and grabbed a wolf for raiding, but if I have a decently geared team and am running random heroics, I have no problem pulling out my slime, which is a tenacity pet.

One reason your pet might be dying is it may be pulling aggro. Make sure that if you're using a tenacity pet it's Growl and Taunt are turned off. I also turn off Thunderstomp just in case. Also, make sure the tank has aggro before you sent your pet in. Your pet should die a lot less often.

[EDIT]

Posted this after the previous post, but wanted to add...

Although I love the healer that heals my pet, I consider it my responsibility. It's nice when healers throw a heal on my pet, but at the same time, I understand in most battles, they're there to keep the tank up and the rest of us DPSing.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#6 Unread post by Ryno » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:20 pm

Orni wrote:Pets do a significant amount of our damage, regardless of the talent build.
Even a survival Hunter needs his pet since it's doing about 25% of his damage.
Very true.

I suggest getting a ferocity pet, and just trying it as of late. With the 90% reduction of AoE damage, unless the pet is tanking something, it shouldn't take too much damage.

If you have an issue where your pet likes to run off and attack any target when on defensive (I do), then perhaps this macro will help:

/cast Hunter's Mark
/petattack

This macro will (obviously) put on hunters mark and then cause your pet to attack. If you keep your pet on passive, this way, you can have him attacking whatever you're attacking, without him running off to other targets.

And also, the adds on Tyrannus DO aggro the healer, much more often than any other person, regardless where they stand. My healer often get's destroyed by about 5 shadowbolts all at once, because of the buggy AI holding the adds at the tunnel...

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#7 Unread post by Kayb » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:28 pm

I'm a MM hunter, always have been, always will be, but I've never had these issues you mention. My pets rarely die at all, let alone during a heroic...
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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#8 Unread post by Kalliope » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:44 pm

Gacheru wrote:Although I love the healer that heals my pet, I consider it my responsibility. It's nice when healers throw a heal on my pet, but at the same time, I understand in most battles, they're there to keep the tank up and the rest of us DPSing.
Yes, pets are the absolute lowest priority for a healer. Fortunately (as discussed in another thread), most healers are going to get your pet passively anyway (HL glyph, cheal, PoM bounces) and druids in general tend to throw a rejuv on everything. Generally speaking, this is enough for your pet. About the only things that kill my pets in heroics at this point are: whirlwinds (bad hunter, no cookie), targeted bleeds/impales that I can't heal through with mend pet (these don't happen that often), and specific fights with ridiculous amounts of AoE (the second boss of AN being pulled with the doors open comes to mind). And that's why I'd like to hear what sort of pet management the OP is doing. :)
Ryno wrote:And also, the adds on Tyrannus DO aggro the healer, much more often than any other person, regardless where they stand. My healer often get's destroyed by about 5 shadowbolts all at once, because of the buggy AI holding the adds at the tunnel...
Well, that's due to healing aggro. >_< But generally, the mobs at the tunnel stay on the NPCs provided that no one in the party is standing that close to them. On my last run, for example, a few of the mobs got loose and broke away from the tunnel, but because no player was standing in the area, they didn't engage or hop on me (I was healing), simply running back to the NPCs.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#9 Unread post by Akyo » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:25 pm

many tanks and healers just dont like seeing tanking pets in heroics. Mainly as they have had issues with pets pulling and causeing extra effort to save. Its simply much easyer to let it die and dont waste mana/rage taunting off it and healing it.

If a pet pulls its most of the time on its own. and (i might get scolded for this) it should be. The pet is not suposed to aggro and try tanking in a heroic. though if it pulls aggro of the tank with growl turned off and gets killed well..then you have a bad tank <.<

I dont normaly have issues with my pets dieing in heroics, if they do i normaly dont think about it to much and just rez it in the next gap between pulls. Often the healers are kind enough to toss it a heal then to get quickly up and going again.

Simply put. as long its not a player most will not go out of their way to save it.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#10 Unread post by Chrizesu » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:57 pm

My pet just about never dies. If my pet dies, I'm normally doing something stupid. Part of it is also watching your pet and calling it back.

BTW, you mend pet, right?

Also, you'll want a Wolf for raiding, You'll find your own damage shoot up pretty dramatically.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#11 Unread post by SpiritBinder » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:45 pm

It is a game, which should give you you some kind of enjoyment. Wheather it's having you favorite pet by your side at all times, beating every hard mode you can get your mitts on or just to do some pvp to release some stress from work. It is very easy to forget that some people are not in it to be the best of all, but then there will always be people who at least try to be.

I'm in 2 fames of mind about this one.

A) I am that healer! But only on specific occasions such as raiding difficult..ish content, doing achievements, hard modes etc. I don’t hesitate to ask why a hunter in using a tenacity pet? I let it go if it is a cunning pet as they all have their pro's and cons, and I don’t demand for them to get a wolf. However there is something about hunters using a tanking pet when we already have a tank in the group, it just bugs me :? If they a BM it just makes it worse imho

B) If the hunter is not BM and has a tanking pet and it is a relaxed environment, I normally don’t mind too much if they are contributing to the dps pool. There are some tanking pets out there that have some good dps family specials (bear swipes on aoe will surprise you!) but this is as long as they are aware of their threat.

As for asking pets to take less damage or die less easily.... You need to remember it's easy to forget that you and you pet are supposed to be able to take on at least 1/2 maybe 3 lvl 80 mobs with relative ease. Not the lvl 83 elite mobs/boss inside heroic instances and walk away unscratched. Yes pets die, very rarely if you know how to manage them properly. But just think of how many time melee die? Probably allot more then your pet, or at least they should as they don’t have so many parameters around saving them from aoe and big killer spells.

If your pet is dying to much, don’t bring a tenacity pet to try and fix the problem, bring a pet that will still help add to your dps. If you can keep it alive, then have it on passive at your side and send it in only when you are confident that it will survive. Call it back if your worried about it taking damage, and practise this.

There are talents that help keep you pet alive in all three trees. Ferocity has bloodthirsty that heals itself back up fairly quickly from splash damage with one point and even faster with two. If it does all go belly up, you can spec a point into heart of the phoenix as a do over. Even lick you wounds on auto cast will save you pet in a pinch. These may not be cookie cutter spec points for a ferocity pet, but would it not be better to practise with one before just using a Tenacity pet for the rest of you hunter days and cut out 2/3 of the beautiful pets available to you?

Now if you just love your tenacity pet so much and don’t want to go anywhere with it, that’s a completely different kettle of fish. :lol:

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#12 Unread post by Spiritchan » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:45 am

Just throwing out my two cents but...

If you need your tenacity pet to help keep yourself alive, then the tank isn't doing their job.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#13 Unread post by Karathyriel » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:31 am

I've had the same experience.

Pets are mostly overlooked by healers and, to be honest, I can understand that they don't want to tell the group that the tank died because they were oom and that was, because they healed the hunters pet. Usually, I try to keep my pet alive by myself but in the heat of the action, it gets forgotten to throw a heal over to him or I simply have better use for that mana. (I still wonder how we do heal our pets in Cataclysm, when mana is all gone for us hunters, but that's another topic and should be discussed somewhere else.)

My solution for the problem was easy enough. In heroics or raids, when Logrim, my faithful companion, tended to die pretty often, I just switched him from "defensive" to "inactive", kept him at my side and just enjoyed the damage boost of his howl. I did this when, analyzing Recounts data, i found out he wasn't doing significant damage. In other words, the amount of damage my furry companion made in his limited lifespan was, compared to the damage boost he gave me, rather unexciting.

So, whenever the going gets tough, Logrim is forced to sit by my side, howling in frustration, to boost my dps. I don't know if this works for BM-hunters, as they rely on pets very much but it works just fine with me being SV-hunter.

Just my two cents...

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#14 Unread post by SpiritBinder » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:22 am

In regards to healers not healing pets, sometimes it depends on if the healer is using some kind of frame add-on. Some of these don't include pets so the healers cant keep track of their health as they can with players. That or sometimes they op not to show pets simply because if you are used to healing a raid and you have 4 Dk, 3 Hunters and 3 locks, that's 10 more little boxes filling up your screen. :shock:

That's said I normally take my time to adjust my setting if I'm healing because I'm all for the pet <3 and healing them when needed ;)

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#15 Unread post by Rhaethe » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:40 am

The only thing I've noticed when it comes to running instances (5 mans) is that I tend to need to manage my pet's health more when we have a holy pally or priest healing. Shaman and druid healers always seem to just pick up on the pet automagically. This is only a very slight tendency, however. Pet receiving specific buffs is hit or miss, and I generally don't ask for them, leaving it to the discretion of the healer if they want to.

I do have a macro I utilize if my pet is getting dangerously low on damage, which basically throws a heal on the pet, puts them on passive, and then calls them over to me. If the fight is still going when my pet reaches over 50% health, then I just throw defensive back on, and they rejoin the fray.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#16 Unread post by Karathyriel » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:55 pm

@ Spiritbinder:
I hate to hijack threads, so please take a look and ask question in this thread.
Thanks.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#17 Unread post by Gacheru » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:37 pm

Karathyriel wrote:So, whenever the going gets tough, Logrim is forced to sit by my side, howling in frustration, to boost my dps.
I have a feeling that many of us with dogs IRL read this pictured our puppy sitting and doing that high pitched "I wanna play with that, but you won't let me" whine.

Sorry, just gave me a great mental image.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#18 Unread post by Lilandre » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:13 pm

One trick I use is to establish a "safe" zone for your pet. This safe zone could be in a corner, away from the group and/or out of enemy LOS. All you need is a minute or so to find said place, move your pet there, then use the "stay" command to keep them there. When the boss is about to use aoe you put your pet on passive and it will run there.

This has some advantages over just putting them on passive:
  1. Your pet will not have to run through the boss/aoe to get to your side (ex: Skadi in H UP whirlwinds and often moves towards the ranged at the same time, if your pet runs with him towards you it spends more time in his aoe)

    If your pet has a dangerous debuff that can hurt teammates it can pull him out of their and your range

    If YOU have a dangerous debuff you can still pull your pet out of aoe without worry

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#19 Unread post by Kalliope » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:25 pm

Amusingly, in one of my randoms today, there was a surv hunter with a slime pet (and the Insane title x_x). The hunter more than pulled his weight and it was very cool actually running an instance with a slime! Previously, I'd only seen them in Dalaran, not in combat. Mind you, the leet dps was from the hunter's 245+ gear, not from his pet. At any rate, it wasn't a big deal.

Cerberus, unfortunately, had bad luck in UP today. The tree healer must not have had pet frames up and Cerb died to the disease that mend pet couldn't heal through. Sad puppy, sad hunter. :( On the plus side, this did remind me of one thing: ferocity pets have a passive healing talent that works kind of like Leader of the Pack: Bloodthirsty. This is another fantastic reason to bring a ferocity pet with you: as long as they're in combat, they're likely to be passively healing themselves.

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Re: Pets die way too often for non-BM hunters

#20 Unread post by Seaiayu » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:24 pm

@ ryno: the macro is a good idea, but not suitable for every raid (the lightning wrder emulon comes to mind, you want to keep the mark on the boss but switch your dps to the buffed add) so its important to keep in mind one easy tip: ctrl+1 keys have your pet attack your current target! as your left hand is either using the hot keys, or using the wasd movment cofiguration (i use macros so i can click things every 30 seconds and thus keep better attention on the fight than hot key) its a simple task to press ctrl with your pinky then press 1. this will help when you dont want to recast your mark (first spider wing boss is another example). hope this helps
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