Wasps

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Anansi
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Wasps

Unread post by Anansi » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:38 pm

So a fellow Hunter guildie was asking me about Wasps the other day, theorizing that the ArPen aspect of the Sting ability would be a solid match for a Marksman Hunter.
I told him the Wolf is still the highest DPS and we talked back and forth for a while about it, both holding our positions (he still believes a Wasp would be better).

Since I like to research and test things out (and I'd love if I could run with a different pet in a raid other than my wolf) I've been playing around with my spreadsheet and doing some research, part of which includes looking for input here.

My spreadsheet indicates that using a Wasp a 61 dps loss over the Wolf, so it's noticeable but not massive. Which leads me to wonder if the constant armour reduction of Sting might be beneficial to all the physical DPS in the raid and thus be a bit more productive than the lost theoretical 60 DPS. Chances are, I wouldn't notice much of a Recount difference at all between the two pets.

The other issue that I'm looking at is that Furious Howl has the same Focus cost as Sting (20) but is on a 40 second CD, while Sting is on a 6 second CD, meaning Sting is going cast a lot more often than Furious Howl, leading to a greater Focus use which could lead to a) an out-of-Focus pet, diminishing DPS or b) requiring me to spec 2 points into Go For The Throat rather than 1, which means taking away from somewhere else, again, with the potential result of lost DPS.

So my questions to the forum are do any of you have raiding experience with a Wasp, and whether you do or do not, have you any theorycrafting input, observations, corrections and so forth. Or anything along those lines?
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Vephriel
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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Vephriel » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:58 pm

I used to raid with my big blue Wasp all the time, I loved him. Most of my guildies were annoyed with his size, but in a joking way. They tolerated him. xD I found he was pretty great DPS.

I used to think that his Armor Reduction ability was awesome, however I believe the problem with it is that it doesn't stack with other similar abilities, so a lot of the time it's not worth it. I'm not positive on that though.

These days my wasp mostly hangs around in my Stable until I feel like bringing him out just for show. :)

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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Ryno » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:01 pm

Anansi wrote:So my questions to the forum are do any of you have raiding experience with a Wasp, and whether you do or do not, have you any theorycrafting input, observations, corrections and so forth. Or anything along those lines?
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But seriously, I haven't used a wasp in a raid scenario yet. If the group has a druid though, who can toss up faerie fire, I think a wasp's poison doesn't stack with it.

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Anansi
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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Anansi » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:34 am

Ah, now that you both mention it, I do recall hearing that the Sting debuff doesn't stack with other similar abilities. Thanks for the reminder!
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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Tonywow » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:55 pm

There are two classifications of armor debuffs. Minor and major, and a wasps sting is considered a minor armor debuff, and I blieve the rhinos is conisdered a major armor debuff. You can have a minor and major armor debuff on the target at the same time, you just can't have multiple minors or majors on one target from my understanding.

Wasps are not bad for dps, like stated already their sting has a really short cool down, so it can be used alot. And I have always been one two spec two points in go for the throat. At end game you crit so dam often to begin with, in addition to talents that make your bread and butter shots crit close or above fifty percent of the time. The two points is certainly a dps upgrade, depending on ones spec however, you may or may not have the two points for gftt. Considering on a pet like the wasp with its short sting CD, and smack, every single time they gain focus, they will have some special ability up to use, and it's instant +damage that you don't have to micro manage either, when your pets gain focus from gftt.

The few times I have needed a change of pace and tame a wolf for instances, I did notice my overall damage contribution was higher using the wolf, over my wasp. But not a night and day difference, and not a big enough difference that it would make me want to run with a wolf for pve, over my wasp which is one of my favorite pets. But if your an optimizer, then yeah the wolf for now is still the best pet for raids/instances.

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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Saturo » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:58 pm

That's odd, I can just notice a 5DPS increase between a Wolf and a Wasp on Tael.

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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Gimlion » Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:27 pm

Tony is correct, also, Wasps, Cats, Wolves, Raptors, and Moths have rather similar dps, so it doesn't make a huge difference anyways. While the ArP goes well with a MM hunter (I'm MM raid specced) Also remember Druids can cast Faerie Fire, which also is classified as a Minor Arm. Debuff. So, if you have a druid (non healer) in the group I'd switch out the wasp for something else, but it still does decent dps.

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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Calgary » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:15 pm

# Minor (stacks with major)

* Druid [Faerie Fire] / [Faerie Fire (Feral)]: -5%, also prevents stealth.
* Hunter [Sting]: Wasp ability, -5%, also prevents stealth.
* Warlock [Curse of Weakness]: -5%, also reduces melee attack power, each warlock can only have one active curse per target.

# Major (stacks with minor)

* Hunter [Acid Spit]: Worm (Exotic Hunter pet) ability, -10%, stacks twice.
* Rogue [Expose Armor]: -4% per application, stacks up to 5 times.
* Warrior [Sunder Armor]: -4% per application, stacks up to 5 times.

Copypasted from WoWwiki. Sting WILL stack with Sunder and Expose Armor, at least.

I prefer running with a wasp, personally. Not all raids have access to a feral druid or a warlock willing to throw Weakness instead of a DPS curse, and I'm willing to sacrifice a /maybe/ 40 DPS difference to benefit the metric ton of DKs, rogues and retpallies I'm normally grouped with. In the end it really is just a matter of taste. Which you use will depend on individual group makeup if you want to be the most beneficial to your raid.

In 5mans, it's exceedingly rare that you'll get someone doing the -5% armor debuff that isn't you. I rarely see anyone using wasps on Wyrmrest or in any pug I've been in. Everyone has wolves, and usually the (opinion) utterly hideous northrend Saberworgs (/opinion). Having a pastel blue wasp is a little different for my battlegroup.

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Re: Wasps

Unread post by Anansi » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:18 pm

Thanks for all the input folks! Very useful indeed.

My raids tend not to make use of any of the minor debuffs so maybe it'd be worth trying out a Wasp for a bit to see if there's an appreciable difference, especially if I've got a physical DPS-heavy group.
Tonywow wrote: And I have always been one two spec two points in go for the throat. At end game you crit so dam often to begin with, in addition to talents that make your bread and butter shots crit close or above fifty percent of the time. The two points is certainly a dps upgrade, depending on ones spec however, you may or may not have the two points for gftt. Considering on a pet like the wasp with its short sting CD, and smack, every single time they gain focus, they will have some special ability up to use, and it's instant +damage that you don't have to micro manage either, when your pets gain focus from gftt.
I run with 1 in GftT right now, and unbuffed I sit at a 53% crit so it's higher in a raid environment. Playing around with the spreadsheet shows a DPS loss in 2/2 given what I'd have to take away from to get that 2/2.

The same spreadsheet shows approximately a 50 DPS loss with a Wasp over the Wolf (and I don't use that horrid sabreworg model! I've got the barking Prairie Wolf from Mulgore - the old style Wolf models are by far the best) so it may be worth contributing that extra debuff.

Definitely all food for thought, thanks guys for all the details and observations! :)
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