Where does intelligence stop?

[Crotalus Horridus]

I've been wondering this for a while now, and I'm pretty sure I can find a good answer here.

Where exactly does the intelligence stop for a beast so that it can be tamable? Arguments are constantly made towards people who want tamable Dragonkin and many other intelligent animals within the Warcraft universe that taming them would essentially be a form of slavery. However, many animals that are tamable in WoW display a very high level of intelligence comparable to a lot of humanoid races. Raptors in the Barrens, for example, have small little tribes with what are essentially huts and decorations around the huts like stolen silver. Silithids in a quest are shown to feel fear (Even though it's a reference.), and their social hierarchy seems to be so complex that they have higher social classes such as Lords, Princesses, and Queens. And of course monkeys, which are trained in the Deadmines to use tools and mine for certain minerals.

Some other things, although references (One already listed above), could also be used as examples. King Mukla is obviously a King Kong reference, as he has a Tauren woman as his ''mate'' that you have to save from him. Although this is realism, one could also consider the fact that Gorillas in real-life are relatively intelligent animals on par with humans.

TL;DR - So my question is, where exactly should Blizzard stop when it comes to making a certain thing tamable when looking at it's intelligence?

[Lisaara]

Well you need to look at the lore behind the creatures, even outside of WoW. Dragons, Dragonkin, Draconic beings have always been sentient whether in WoW, DnD, and other draconic lore. Heck, the 'archdemon' in Dragon Age is an intelligent dragon old god. It would be bad for them to change it just cause some hunters want to tame them(and not just happy with the many draconic mounts and mini pets). Raptors in lore have always just been beasts, even in WoW. Just because a creature species shows a complex society doesn't make them sentient. Sentience involves self-awareness. Example: As humans, if we look in the mirror, we know it's our reflection. If a cat looks in the mirror, it thinks it's another cat.

I worry this topic may get heated, only cause in the past they always seem to. :< Tis my two cents though.

[Crotalus Horridus]

Well you need to look at the lore behind the creatures, even outside of WoW. Dragons, Dragonkin, Draconic beings have always been sentient whether in WoW, DnD, and other draconic lore. Heck, the 'archdemon' in Dragon Age is an intelligent dragon old god. It would be bad for them to change it just cause some hunters want to tame them(and not just happy with the many draconic mounts and mini pets). Raptors in lore have always just been beasts, even in WoW. Just because a creature species shows a complex society doesn't make them sentient. Sentience involves self-awareness. Example: As humans, if we look in the mirror, we know it's our reflection. If a cat looks in the mirror, it thinks it's another cat.

I worry this topic may get heated, only cause in the past they always seem to. :< Tis my two cents though.

Generally, complex social systems require the animal to have a relatively complex brain. It's why, usually, the smarter an animal is the more social it's going to be. Case in point, is that most mammals, a very complex class, will live in large groups consisting of a singular family or multiple families. While Raptors are of course seen in WoW as beasts, they're seen by many as very intelligent beasts and very hard to tame unless they interact with an individual or multiple individuals over a very, very long time. I remember in the Zandalari Lore Scrolls around the Thunder Isle that they use the Dinosaur Fetishes to make the animals more ready for war faster than simply bonding with them.
I remember somewhere that some Proto-Dragons aren't as intelligent as ones such as the ones that in the end became Dragons. And, as seen in Scholazar, they appear to have social hierarchies.

I as well worry that this thread may become a heated battle. If anything too extreme happens, I'll alert someone about it immediately.

[Zhinru]

I think the border is commonly defined in speech. If it can talk to you, it turns from a clever girl beast into a person. Clothing is nice, but not absolutely necessary. Another important factor is probably traditional outlook into the creature.

Dragonkin creatures, IMHO, are better suited for "partners" or shapeshift forms for a potential future draconic-themed class. Because they also talk and are often considered sapient in fiction, they're likely to remain untameable forever.

Silithids are probably on the level of monkeys - they're smart for a beast, but on the level of a small child at best. In my opinion, this is where we should draw the line - where it starts discovering morality and can decide for itself what's good or bad.

[Lupis]

I see it like this: if you can make it trust you by just feeding it scraps for many consecutive days, you can tame it. A raptor might tame up after a longer time than a boar, but either way, it's trusting you due to your giving it food. Things with greater intelligence, however, might not be so willing to go along with that. A human might get suspicious, feel like they're being treated like an animal, or even get manipulative. A dragon, which Wrathion has showed can be ultra-intelligent minutes after hatching, would do something similar, most likely.

[Rarehunter1]

To not put a damper on the dragonoid lovers... we got the arcane wryms from northrend last patch.

Up until 5.1 they were classed as dragonkin, so I suppose if blizz ever decides certain other dragons (cloud serpents *wink wink*) would be fit for hunter pets, we could see them become tameable in the far future.

In the end, I suppose Blizz will make tameable what Blizz sees fit, and that is that.

[Crotalus Horridus]

To not put a damper on the dragonoid lovers... we got the arcane wryms from northrend last patch.

Up until 5.1 they were classed as dragonkin, so I suppose if blizz ever decides certain other dragons (cloud serpents *wink wink*) would be fit for hunter pets, we could see them become tameable in the far future.

In the end, I suppose Blizz will make tameable what Blizz sees fit, and that is that.

While Arcane Wyrms were at one time Dragonkin, for most people, they don't exactly fit the whole ''This is a dragon that breathes fire and can fly around and be super awesome and stuff'' quality for most of said people. While it and if Cloud Serpents are to be tamable are a sign that Blizzard doesn't have a lot of restrictions when it comes to pets, it doesn't of course mean that everything will be tameable ever.

I think the border is commonly defined in speech. If it can talk to you, it turns from a clever girl beast into a person. Clothing is nice, but not absolutely necessary. Another important factor is probably traditional outlook into the creature.

Dragonkin creatures, IMHO, are better suited for "partners" or shapeshift forms for a potential future draconic-themed class. Because they also talk and are often considered sapient in fiction, they're likely to remain untameable forever.

Silithids are probably on the level of monkeys - they're smart for a beast, but on the level of a small child at best. In my opinion, this is where we should draw the line - where it starts discovering morality and can decide for itself what's good or bad.

I believe that Raptors are right under the level of being able to speak a complex, vocal language. The quest chain in Azshara is good proof for this, as the raptors are given an intelligence increasing device and are instantly able to speak and create aircraft. And of course, the Raptor is untameable, so it seems that the border between being tameable and being untameable is with having a complex vocal language.

[Wain]

Honestly, like skinning, I don't think they have any hard-and-fast set of rules.

I have a feeling they base it on judgement calls. "Does it feel weird making this tameable?". Which I believe is a perfectly acceptable way to do it. Much as I may not 100% agree with the results (which is also fine as everyone's views differ on this).

I think they apply the same judgement to the skinning and cooking rules, but in those cases I find the results a little more macabre. We can cook and eat dragons and makrura, for example, both of which are sapient beings. The latter is even classed as humanoid. But that's considered OK because they don't look like people, even though it's really little different to skinning night elves to make boots and butchering tauren for steaks.

[cowmuflage]

I think intelligence stops when it hits it's cap

[SpiritBinder]

I think intelligence stops when it hits it's cap

[Crotalus Horridus]

Dat tent.

[Torachi]

I think intelligence stops when it hits it's cap

This was the hardest thing to have to force myself to not laugh at. Ever. >.> Even with the threat of waking the fiancé passed out on my back.

Anyways, I don't think I'll get too deep into details on my thoughts concerning this whole topic, partially because I'm dead tired, and also because some of what I feel has already been stated. Part of me agrees about the dragonkin being of too high intelligence to simply tame... But then another part quips, "But we use them as mounts. Wouldn't this equate to about the same idea as having them as a pet...? The only difference is that they ferry us anywhere and everywhere we demand to go on their backs, instead of them attacking what we demand they attack."

I know not many agree with that logic, but it's what I have always felt. I actually feel like I belittle them using them as my nice shiny new mount, when instead I could be calling them a companion and friend, who has my back, and I have theirs. I'd love to see some type of mechanic one day that essentially let's us "befriend" them first, then eventually tame them... Or something like that. I'm no good at thinking up those things.

Anyways, that's my two sense on it all... Now to try and get some sleep. X.X (Forgive any typos if there are any...)

[pawprintedheart]

Okay one, the picture of that tent? Creepy! LOL

Secondly, just a brief add on to the conversation because while I'm not really sure where intelligence should stop for pet taming... Torachi mentioned we use dragons as mounts, and to *me* mounts have less personality and bonds than hunter pets. Hunters feed their pets (though really only to heal these days, rather than keeping them happy) and mend their pets, and having that constant companion around matters more to me than the pretty 'taxi' I call on to fly me somewhere. Not that I ever want them to take away dragons as mounts, but I do wonder why their intelligence lets them be used for nothing more than flying/running us places and not as a pet. -shrugs- And wasn't the Chromehound/Chromaggus a dragonkin? (Not 100% sure there...)

[Akyo]

i think its more of: "would that beeing be comfortable and happy under the command of a hunter?"
As we know, most creatures feel fear, pain, happiness and so on so thats not a valid comment to end it on.

Take a dog, its very happy to do tricks and acompany its master. Its mind (as i would imagen) is going: OMG OMG I DO THIS I GET TREAT AND PETS AND OMG! while A more humanoid beeing would possibly go: why would i listen to you?! i dont want treats and pets! i want my own house! my own gf/bf! and to deside my own darned dinner!

[Gimlion]

I honestly see the use of drakes as mounts as befriending and earning the trust of the dragon well enough for them to join us as a companion. However, in the same way, I feel dragons could be earned as combat partners the same way. Maybe not to hunters, since Tame beast still implies (IMO) subduing the creature, and befriending it later. But I think it would be neat to have a Dracomancer or Dragonwhisperer or some such class in the future to allow the use of Dragonkin as combat partners. Perhaps make it a new hero class and have the starting quest line be them harnessing and befriending and learning the ways of the dragon. With plenty of "How to Tame Your Dragon" references, of course! xD

[Wain]

Don't give me ideas

[Wain]

Dat tent.

I'm sure I saw her on Doctor Who...

[Lupis]

Side note: Mounts break everything. The idea that we can have some of the mounts we have is completely ridiculous lore-wise. I mean, honestly, how many tame Twilight Drakes are there, really? Maybe one or two and those are miracle cases. Even common ones like Bronze Drakes, it's hard to believe we're dragging a fully matured drake everywhere just so we can ride around on it. Those things are people, not lizards with wings. Even if they feel indebted to your character, ferrying you around for the rest of their life sounds like the last thing a typically arrogant and noble race would want to do.

In select private cases, it makes sense, but not when you think about just how many dragons each character has. My hunter hasn't done anything miraculous and she has a dozen different powerful dragons. That's just... what.

[cowmuflage]

Haha true. Those Chromatic drakes I don't even think there are any left and there is a mount of one

[Wain]

Yeah, I agree. For mounts it's a matter of suspending disbelief for the sake of awesome.

With our first ever drake mounts, the nether ones, they added an explanation. For later ones it's more a case of "meh, let's stop bothering with contrived reasoning and just have fun"