Pet ability change summary

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Wain
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Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Wain » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:05 pm

I was just compiling a full summary of changes in pet family abilities in Legion. Does anyone have any changes to this list?

Follow-up questions for discussion : Which families do your raid leaders now ask you to bring and why? Are there any families that retained abilities that you feel really suck anyway?


LOST ABILITIES
  • Bats : lost Sonic Focus (multistrike buff)
  • Bears : lost Invigorating Roar (stamina buff)
  • Birds of Prey : lost Tenacity (versatility buff)
  • Boars : lost Indomitable (versatility buff)
  • Cats : lost Roar of Courage (mastery buff), but kept Prowl
  • Chimaeras [EXOTIC] : lost Duality (multistrike buff), but kept Frost Breath (slow) and Froststorm breath (damage)
  • Clefthooves [EXOTIC] : lost Wild Strength (versatility & multistrike buff), but kept Thick Hide (takes less damage below 40% health)
  • Core Hounds [EXOTIC] : lost Double Bite (multistrike buff), but kept Molten Hide (damage to melee attackers) and Ancient Hysteria (heroism)
  • Devilsaurs [EXOTIC] : lost Terrifying Roar (crit buff), but kept Monstrous Bite (reduces healing) and Feast (heal from corpse)
  • Dogs : lost Bark of the Wild (str/agi/int buff)
  • Dragonhawks : lost Spry Attacks (multistrike buff)
  • Goats : lost Sturdiness (stamina buff)
  • Gorillas : lost Blessing of Kongs (str/agi/int buff)
  • Hydras : lost Keen Senses (mastery buff)
  • Hyenas : lost Cackling Howl (haste buff)
  • Porcupines : lost Defensive Quills (versatility buff)
  • Quilen [EXOTIC] : lost Fearless Roar (crit buff), but kept Eternal Guardian (combat resurrection) and Stone Armour (takes less damage below 40% health and regens)
  • Raptors : lost Strength of the Pack (crit buff)
  • Ravagers : lost Chitinous Armor (versatility buff)
  • Rylaks [EXOTIC] : lost Savage Vigor (haste & stamina buff), but kept Updraft (slow fall)
  • Serpents : lost Serpent's Cunning (spell power buff)
  • Shale Spiders [EXOTIC] : lost Embrace of the Shale Spider (str/agi/int/crit buff), but kept Solid Shell (reduced damage)
  • Silithids [EXOTIC] : lost Qiraji Fortitude (spell power & stamina buff), but kept Tendon Rip (slows movement)
  • Spirit Beasts [EXOTIC] : lost Spirit Beast Blessing (mastery & crit buff), but kept Spirit Mend (heal) and Spirit Walk (a prowl)
  • Sporebats : lost Energizing Spores (haste buff)
  • Stags : lost Grace (versatility buff)
  • Tallstriders : lost Plainswalking (mastery buff)
  • Wasps : lost Speed of the Swarm (haste buff)
  • Water Striders [EXOTIC] : lost Still Water (spell power & crit buff), but kept Surface Trot (water walking)
  • Wind Serpents : lost Breath of the Winds (multistrike buff)
  • Wolves : lost Furious Howl (crit buff)
  • Worms [EXOTIC] : lost Strength of the Earth (str/agi/int/versatility buff), but kept Burrow Attack (damage)

Of all the families that lost abilities, most Exotics still have something, just one fewer than they had. Cats also have a remaining ability, but it's only Prowl.


NEVER HAD ABILITIES (new families)
  • Mechanicals
  • Oxen
  • Scalehides

DIDN'T CHANGE
  • Basilisks : kept Stone Scales (reduced damage)
  • Beetles : kept Harden Carapace (reduced damage)
  • Carrion Birds : kept Bloody Screech (mortal wounds)
  • Crabs : kept Harden Shell (reduced damage)
  • Cranes : kept Gift of Chi-Ji (combat resurrection)
  • Crocolisks : kept Ankle Crack (slows movement)
  • Direhorns : kept Reflective Armor Plating (spell deflection)
  • Foxes : kept Agile Reflexes (dodge)
  • Monkeys : kept Primal Agility (dodge)
  • Moths : kept Dust of Life (combat resurrection)
  • Nether Rays : kept Nether Winds (heroism)
  • River Beasts : kept Bloody Screech (mortal wounds)
  • Scorpions : kept Deadly Sting (mortal wounds)
  • Spiders : kept Web Spray (slows movement)
  • Turtles : kept Shell Shield (reduced damage)
  • Warp Stalkers : kept Warp Time (movement reduction)
(Thanks very much to Tsiya, Rawr, GormanGhaste and others who contributed over on this thread back in Beta.)
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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by zedxrgal » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:16 pm

Thank you for this but it breaks my heart to read how much our poor pets lost.
Kind of sucks because I've been experiencing a lot of elitest prick like behavior asking if I happen to have this or that pet to help (aka moths, scorpions) which I thought blizzards intent was to keep that from happening but it's like it was resurrected again. At least for me.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Wain » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:28 pm

So, combat resurrection and mortal wounds are the two family abilities that raid groups ask for now? Is mortal wounds because it enhances the rotation of other classes?
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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by zedxrgal » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:40 pm

So far for me yes. BM spec and one of those two. The battle rez makes a lot of sense. Anything to help rez a healer /tank in a hectic fight is always welcome.
Deadly sting also prevents healing to the target for 10 seconds which can be huge in high mob fights with casters. I see this a lot in Timewalking.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by SpiritBinder » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:48 pm

Below is essentially the same list of those that did not change, but sorted by amounts to see the distribution of what abilities have been left and used.


DIDN'T CHANGE (All Non-Exotics)

Cranes : kept Gift of Chi-Ji (combat resurrection)
Moths : kept Dust of Life (combat resurrection)

Foxes : kept Agile Reflexes (dodge)
Monkeys : kept Primal Agility (dodge)

Nether Rays : kept Nether Winds (heroism)

Carrion Birds : kept Bloody Screech (mortal wounds)
River Beasts : kept Bloody Screech (mortal wounds)
Scorpions : kept Deadly Sting (mortal wounds)

Basilisks : kept Stone Scales (reduced damage)
Beetles : kept Harden Carapace (reduced damage)
Crabs : kept Harden Shell (reduced damage)
Turtles : kept Shell Shield (reduced damage)

Crocolisks : kept Ankle Crack (slows movement)
Spiders : kept Web Spray (slows movement)
Warp Stalkers : kept Warp Time (slows movement)

Direhorns : kept Reflective Armor Plating (spell deflection)



These ones are just the exotics and shows the differences between what they have left after prior buff removals. Some have 2 and other just 1. Also with these there are discrepancies, some having 2 Combat useful abilities (eg. Quilen) while other have only 1 noncombat useful ability (eg. Water Striders)

2 ABILITIES

Chimaeras [EXOTIC] : Frost Breath (slow) and Froststorm breath (damage)
Core Hounds [EXOTIC] :but kept Molten Hide (damage to melee attackers) and Ancient Hysteria (heroism)
Devilsaurs [EXOTIC] :Monstrous Bite (reduces healing) and Feast (heal from corpse)
Quilen [EXOTIC] : Eternal Guardian (combat resurrection) and Stone Armour (takes less damage below 40% health and regens)
Spirit Beasts [EXOTIC] : Spirit Mend (heal) and Spirit Walk (a prowl)


1 ABILITY

Clefthooves [EXOTIC] : Thick Hide (takes less damage below 40% health)
Rylaks [EXOTIC] : Updraft (slow fall)
Shale Spiders [EXOTIC] : Solid Shell (reduced damage)
Silithids [EXOTIC] : Tendon Rip (slows movement)
Water Striders [EXOTIC] : Surface Trot (water walking)
Worms [EXOTIC] : Burrow Attack (damage)

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Lupen202 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:24 am

Maybe a chance to finally be heard? Though I doubt we'll get our nice combat/stat buffs back :/

https://twitter.com/muffinus/status/804194085649006592

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Kalliope » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:54 am

Oh hey, I missed this thread. I didn't know raids were asking for the MS debuff! Interesting. I would add bloodlust to the needed list. While a proper raid tends to have a main class with that covered, I run into a lot of pugs without them (or people who don't know when to pop it, so I do it). Also incredibly useful for mythic+.

Basically, all useful pets can be covered in three or four pets. (SB heal is my default standby.) Considering how huge our stables are, it's pretty sad that we don't even need our active slots full for utility.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by SpiritBinder » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:46 am

I really would like to see them rectify or add abilities to those missing, but looking at it, it's a monstrous task. I wonder if there is a more elegant solution that would be easy enough to implement, yet still have a semblance of identity/choice and options.

What if all individual abilities where removed, and another system was implemented that covered the primary ones that were removed, and made them more available to others.

Tenacity Spec'ed pets could choose 1 of three defensive themed skills.
  • A Shield
    A Dodge (that is much higher than the current versions to make it as attractive as a shield)
    Or an interrupt (that works :P )
Cunning Spec'ed pets could choose 1 of three cunning themed skills.
  • A Slow
    A Mortal Strike
    Or a Prowl (with it's damage bonus)
Ferocity Spec'ed pets could choose 1 of three ferocity themed skills.
  • A Battle rez
    A Hero
    Or an Innervate (of sorts that would also replenish non-mana users resource too)
I would love to see exotics keep some feel of an exotic/unique trait, and I guess would not be too hard with their current unique abilities.

Chimaeras - Froststorm Breath
Clefthooves - ??? (Maybe a mounted speed increase?)
Core Hounds - Molten Hide
Devilsaurs - Feast
Quilen - ??? (Maybe an out of combat resurrection?)
Rylaks - Updraft
Shale Spiders - ??? (Maybe a weak version of stone shield for them or the hunter only?)
Silithids - ??? (Maybe a magic version of Molten Hide, reflecting magical attacks via a Hardened Carapace?)
Spirit Beasts - Spirit mend
Water Strider - Surface Trot
Worms - Burrow

There really is so much to cover with so many families, it's quite the task to do them all. To do them properly, make them even(ish) and try and keep the majority happy O_o

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Kalliope » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:25 am

I was trying really hard to come up with new ability ideas that would fit with the balance of the pets we have, just to add some variety. We currently have 15 different abilities available, period. With 64 families, that leaves a LOT of room for overlap.
  • Secondary spec abilities:
  • Last Stand
  • Dash
  • Old abilities:
  • Interrupt
  • Exotic abilities that could use a wider spread (in return, "exotics" are pets with two abilities - more combos):
  • Waterwalking
  • Slow Fall
  • Heal Over Time

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Quiv » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:50 pm

The existing abilities I don't care for are the Direhorn reflect and the Monkey/Fox dodge.

I don't raid, but the pets I tend to carry are Spirit Beast for the heal (primary pet most of the time), a moth for the rez and Nether Ray for the hysteria. I keep heal on auto cast in most group settings and its nearly used on CD. I don't know if it amounts to anything in the long run, but it makes me feel good lol. I use it frequently in solo stuff. I honestly feel kinda stuck using a Spirit Beast due to the sheer usefulness of the heal, even if its not much.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Kalliope » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:56 pm

Quiv wrote:The existing abilities I don't care for are the Direhorn reflect and the Monkey/Fox dodge.
Completely agreed! Any ability that means my pet isn't using basic attacks is going to make me want to use another pet whose ability doesn't stop them from hitting enemies. If they were a more compelling choice, then maybe I'd be willing to make that trade, but as it stands, I'm just not into it. the fact that both abilities are restricted to non-exotic families feels a little weird too.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:35 pm

I don't know how possible it is, but what about making pet abilities function like how lone wolf used to? Like, you would have a little pop up thing like the current pet utility option and you could pick from a set list of abilities. I don't know if it's feasible, but it might give hunters more options in pets if it were. I'm not sure how this would work with exotics who have a little bit fancier abilities and usually carry two of them.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by SpiritBinder » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:45 pm

There certainly are a lot of abilities that sound good/offer flavor, but are so far out classed by others of a similar ilk that I too would use them only for looks.

Worms "Burrow" does very small damage, drops off the aggrieved table (normally not ideal for soloing) and done not contribute to attack/beast cleave while using. Its a DPS loss in every way...

And agreed with any current form of dodge for pets. If it were to be changed to a 100% dodge for 4-5 seconds on its two minute counter, then it would comparable to other current shields/defensives. But as it stands at 30% and it's cooldown, I'll be packing my turtle.

This is the thing, there are so many pets and with such disparities between some of them, it's either going to take a LOT of work to semi-balance or the system needs yet another look. :|

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Talihawk » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:06 am

It's kind of exciting to have the devs ask us point blank what we'd like to see for new pet family abilities. As I'm still rather new to all this, just how much should I hold back my expectations? What do you think we'll see? Any bets on if we'll see some buffs return?

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Xella » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:28 am

I mean, it could go any which way. We could see abilities untied from specific pet families (hope springs eternal :P), we could see abilities removed from pets altogether, we might not see anything at all until 8.0 (unlikely but then again, look at the hunter feedback thread(s)...)

I don't think we're likely to see passive buffs make a comeback unless it's a passive buff that already still exists, like the runspeed aura on windwalkers or marks or whatever, but I could be wrong. I'd love to see a way to make your pet ranged (Hati merges with your actual pet and grants it the power of storms or something, idek) but that's the kind of thing that I think is so far off the table it may not have ever left the kitchen, lol.
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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Quiv » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:09 am

To me, the pet ability system is in a prime state to be taken back to the drawing table and come up with something more compelling and flavorful. Their current design doesn't allow for stat buffs, so we would have to work with the utility/damage abilities we have (or if they could come up with more).

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE some sort of pet training mechanic, where I could "train" my pet to do one of a select list of abilities (maybe two for exotic). It would allow me to use the pet I want while choosing the ability I want, and training your pet is perfect flavor for a hunter. I would love to teach my devilsaur to "fight through the pain" and take reduced damage (like shell shield does), or however they want to spin it. I even think they could spin the heal effect well enough to make sense in a system like this.

That is just an example of course, but I hope they don't "phone in" such an important part of our class as pet abilities.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Rawr » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:49 am

Here are some archived pet abilities if you guys want more ideas:

http://web.archive.org/web/200806160451 ... skills.php Really old, like vanilla/BC

http://web.archive.org/web/201003232054 ... kills.html 2010 so WotLK :mrgreen:

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by Rarehunter1 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:58 pm

Yah, I agree with a lot of things here! It's very exciting to know that they are looking into pet ability issues!

I really like the idea where we could teach normal pets one specific ability, and exotics could be taught two. At this point that feels like it would fix everything. We should have a small pool of trainable abilities not based on pet species at all. For example:

Trainable abilities pool (based on what we have and my opinion of most useful):

-Mortal Wounds (Reduced Healing)
-Bloodlust
-Reduced Damage
-Battle Rez
-Healing
-Waterwalking
-Slowfall
-Slow

Ex 1:

Hunter tames Fox: Fox comes with no default abilities: Goes to hunter trainer: "Teach Fox Mortal Wounds?" Accepts: Mortal Wounds ability appears in pet spellbook/action bar.

(Talking to the hunter trainer afterwards gives no pet spell options, but the option to unlearn the current pet spell.)

Ex 2:

BM Hunter tames Corehound: Corehound comes with no default abilities: Goes to hunter trainer: "Teach Corehound Slowfall?" Accepts: Slowfall ability appears in pet spellbook/action bar: Talks to the hunter trainer again: "Teach Corehound Healing?" Accepts: Healing ability appears in pet spellbook/action bar.

(Talking to the hunter trainer after the Exotic has learned two abilities will reveal only the option to unlearn the current pet spells.)



I don't know why, but I just feel this would solve almost everything. The only other option I could see is to remove pet abilities altogether, but that would be no fun. :p

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:13 pm

The only issue with needing to go to a hunter or pet trainer for those ideas is that you cannot change your pet on the fly, which kind of goes against Blizzard's current ideas with specs and talents right now. Why should I have to go to a trainer every time? I don't have to do that to swap my specs/talents for myself so why would I do it for my pets? Some people have only one favorite pet; being able to spec/spell that pet on the fly would be much more desirable than returning to a capital city every time. That's why I proposed it work like the old lone wolf buff bar.

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Re: Pet ability change summary

Unread post by GormanGhaste » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:55 pm

While I don't miss feeding my pets, I do miss training them. That was a fun mechanic.

One pet ability I miss is the Crocolisk's old Bad Attitude--it damaged mobs that were attacking it.
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