Where is the Line Drawn For Intelligent Tameable Beasts?

[WerebearGuy]

A good discussion regarding beast intelligence and taming eligibility came up in a thread not suited for said discussion, so here we are with a civil discussion regarding this concept.

There are beast with humanoid features, upright bipedal posture, signs of higher intelligence, and so on scattered throughout the game. In the books, some of these races (notably Yetis) have shown signs of culture through bonding, naming, and similar traits. In older parts of the game, some beasts have been shown to create tents and jewelry, even more advanced than simply hiding under foliage or inside a bigger beast's body. There are spirit beasts with extremely high levels of intelligence, and one noteworthy example is close to a Loa. With Shadowlands looming around the corner, we have been blessed with an unexpected and intelligent new pet; Cloud Serpents. These noodle dragons are definitely intelligent, with some examples being capable of full discussion and being revered as minor deities. How is it that we can tame some intelligent beasts, yet others we cannot? What do we have that lets us tame raptors that won't let us tame yetis? What has us tame cloud serpents, yet we can't tame things like feral druids (the kind who regress into animals, not druids who're still sane)? What defining features prevent us from taming one, yet let us tame another? What allows us to tame lookalikes that can be easily mistaken for their intelligent counterparts?

Feel free to add any examples of intelligent beasts you find in the game to the discussion. The more examples, the better we can discuss.

Noteworthy Beasts and Beastly Beings With Confirmed Varied Levels of Higher Intelligence:
- Cloud-Serpent
- Dragon
- Gorilla (Specifically any from the Da'kani tribe, though due to Kajamite influence)
- Makrura
- Mechanical (specifically Sentient Mechanostrider)
- Raptor (Can't remember which ones, but they had tents in the Barrens)
- Raven Lord (Specifically https://www.wow-petopia.com/npc.php?id=23035]Anzu)
- Silithid
- Spirit Beast
- Yeti

[WerebearGuy]

Quoting the posts from the Shadowlands Beta discussion thread that started this discussion in the first place.

I hope someday we can have yetis as pets, they are more bestial than humanoid tbf, I also hope those rock elemental gorilla things become tameable, they’re referred to as “earth fury” and they would be a great fit in shale beastD7CC88DE-75DD-4FDC-A0D2-F9AE49C7E02F.jpeg

I hope someday we can have yetis as pets, they are more bestial than humanoid tbf, I also hope those rock elemental gorilla things become tameable, they’re referred to as “earth fury” and they would be a great fit in shale beastD7CC88DE-75DD-4FDC-A0D2-F9AE49C7E02F.jpeg

The Yetis are actually sentient. They are incapable of speaking Common, but they were shown in a recent book that they are quite intelligent and give one another names.

I'm with worgpower in regards to yetis. They may be intelligent, but as we've seen, this is disregarded at times with some creatures that we can already tame. Cloud serpents being a recent example, but also various beasts such as Hati. We can also tame the "smart" gorillas in Zuldazar, even though they lose their intelligence (and sweet hats) when tamed. Then there's the fact we can tame robotic animals, including ones that are fully capable of speech and proper conversation. There's no implications nor harm in regards to taming those, so there's nothing wrong with taming gorilas that have horns. Let's also not forget that the old Azeroth raptors are all intelligent. They're tribal and wear jewelry, yet we can tame them.

As for those poor, broken models; yikes. Phalynxes look absolutely horrendous right now. Hope that gets fixed before release.

I'm with worgpower in regards to yetis. They may be intelligent, but as we've seen, this is disregarded at times with some creatures that we can already tame. Cloud serpents being a recent example, but also various beasts such as Hati. We can also tame the "smart" gorillas in Zuldazar, even though they lose their intelligence (and sweet hats) when tamed. Then there's the fact we can tame robotic animals, including ones that are fully capable of speech and proper conversation. There's no implications nor harm in regards to taming those, so there's nothing wrong with taming gorilas that have horns. Let's also not forget that the old Azeroth raptors are all intelligent. They're tribal and wear jewelry, yet we can tame them.

As for those poor, broken models; yikes. Phalynxes look absolutely horrendous right now. Hope that gets fixed before release.

As far as we are aware, Hati is not sentient. Very intelligent, but not sentient. Most of the mechs are just robots with intelligences a bit higher than animals. The only known sentient one that I can recall is the mechanostrider in Gnomeregan and it asks to be tamed. The raptors are very intelligent, but there isn’t any indication that they are sentient outside of a few exception, individual cases.

I do agree regarding the gorillas. That being said, where is the line drawn? If sentience doesn’t matter, then should we make Hozen tamable just because someone wants them? Kobolds? Jinyu? Tauren? Dragons? Just because there are past exceptions doesn’t mean that such things should become the norm.

The line can be drawn by civilization. Yes, yetis and the raptors I mentioned have tribes and families and such, but they aren't civilized in the same regard as the others you mentioned. Hozen and Kobolds are arguably civilized since they're dumb as bricks and live with other races like destructive parasites, but the others are civilized to the point of being standalone powers. Hozen live alongside the Jinyu, though with some hostilities, and Tauren live among so many other civilized races as equals. Hell, Tauren are probably the most neutral race since they've been friendly with Alliance outside of plot reasons. Some dragons live among the smaller races as equals as well, but they definitely have their own civilization, culture, and so on based on their various breeds' lifestyles. Taming any of them would be ethically wrong since that's almost exactly like slavery. Ignoring that we can literally tame some dragons now (including intelligent ones capable of speech), of course. It'd make sense if you could call on a druid's aid, or fight alongside a young drake to eventually help it grow into a powerful dragon after your immortal character eventually passes on. The others? That's calling in party members.

Yetis and raptors, while having shown signs of intelligence and companionship, are no higher than the gorillas we have in real life. Sure, keeping gorillas caged is pretty messed up outside of conservation efforts, but they're intelligent and have shown they can bond with humans, just like any animal that's treated with respect, kindness, and so on. Yetis are, by all means, slightly smarter great apes (or whatever they're closer to. They look like gorillas to me, at least).

[GormanGhaste]

Don't forget Makrura!

[WerebearGuy]

Don't forget Makrura!

Joke's on you, I DID forget them! Ha ha! But for real, added them to the list. Got any examples of them being intelligent though? I only remember them changing from beast to humanoid.

[Maizou]

Silithid are sentient. We can even tame the bosses that talk.

[Lupis]

Personally, and from what I've seen, Blizzard has been drawing a pretty strong line on taming anything that could resemble being "humanoid" for... obvious reasons. :,D It's a BIG ethical can of worms to open if they wanted to allow hunters to tame and command humanoid creatures. So things on two legs with human arrangements of limbs seem to be generally avoided. Monkeys and gorillas may edge close to that line, but humanoids are... just too human. And when you can tame creatures that run around on two legs like a person and have humanoid faces and hands, the ethical questions are just undeniable. Maybe in lore yetis aren't smart, but the image is commanding around a humanoid beast race, and that's. just. that's rough.

I don't think it has to do with sentience, though. As people here have mentioned, we can tame all sorts of sentient creatures- but they're beast in appearance. I think that might be where the line is drawn for Blizzard. If someone posted a screenshot of a hunter commanding around a yeti, that looks bad. But a cloud serpent? Nobody outside the game will see that as a person.

Edit, regarding feral druids: Still people! Being able to tame a Person who's not in person form/acts like an animal is PRETTY... QUESTIONABLE... considering what that could imply about treating the 'insane' as animals.

[Vephriel]

Edit, regarding feral druids: Still people! Being able to tame a Person who's not in person form/acts like an animal is PRETTY... QUESTIONABLE... considering what that could imply about treating the 'insane' as animals.

Amusing note on this discussion, the cursed pigs inside Waycrest Manor transform back into humans once they die, so technically we're taming transformed men.

[Qraljar]

For me, it's about the basis. If the species is generally speaking bestial and not intelligent/sentient and there's just a few specimen that are magically or alchemically enhanced, then I would consider that they should still be tameable.

There's tiger Loa and Celestials, but your average tiger is still an animal. Same for Cloud Serpents, same for Dread Ravens, etc.

[GormanGhaste]

Amusing note on this discussion, the cursed pigs inside Waycrest Manor transform back into humans once they die, so technically we're taming transformed men.

I would totally tame one of those if they still did that as hunter pets

[Vephriel]

Amusing note on this discussion, the cursed pigs inside Waycrest Manor transform back into humans once they die, so technically we're taming transformed men.

I would totally tame one of those if they still did that as hunter pets

I was hopefully expectant when I used feign death after taming, but alas, just a regular piggy death animation.

[worgpower]

It’s good that you created this thread where I can discuss my opinions, there are Yetis that stand up and ones that run on all fours, and there are makrura who carry weapons, I mean, crabs can hold knives, hence the video that made wow add an item for hunters, they’re so beastlike, they can be bonded with by some, I know yetis can be mounts, but doesn’t mean we don’t leave them out, we can leave gronnlings out cuz they become too big for anything besides war, soon enough we can tame a undead version of rezan which is a loa in zuldazar, even though we can’t tame him in the instance, we can tame a similar version in nazmir, so it’s complicated to send opinions about these creatures

[Valnaaros]

Makrura: They have their own language, Nerglish, and are one of the races the represent the Unshakled in Nazjatar.

Dragons: The only dragons seen as primitive are the proto-drakes. The dragons that are not proto-drakes, whether a whelp, a drake, or a full-grown dragon are all capable of speaking languages and can transform into Humanoid races.

Cloud Serpents: They are listed as the dragons of Pandaria, but they are not at all related to the Dragons found in the rest of Azeroth. The ones that are found to be capable of talking are either Wild Gods or their intelligence was increased magically.

Yetis: Despite viewed often as animals, they are very intelligent. They give one another names, can formulate battle strategies, and actually have religious beliefs.

Mechanicals: They are built for the purpose of serving their creator. That is why they exist in the first place - they are built to serve. And just because some are capable of sentience does not mean that the robot chickens in Loch Modan or the Mechasabers on Mechagon are sentient.

Raptors: As far as we know, the intelligence of raptors allows them to craft jewelry and to build primitive mud huts. Whether or not they have their own language or any sort of beliefs is unknown.

Spirit Beasts: As far as we know, Spirit Beasts are just the spirits of animals that have passed on (Aside from manasabers). We do not know how intelligent they are, and we do not know of Loque'nahak is a Wild God. Though his mate is, that does not mean that he is, too. We know that in the case of Wild Gods like Aviana, that they will have a mate or consort that is of some degree of animal intelligence and not necessarily sentient.

Druids: Whether or not they have control of themselves is irrelevant. They are still a person. If that were the case, then why not also tame Feral Worgen? Both them and Druids can regain their minds if the proper means are utilized.

Whether or not they are civilized is, honestly, irrelevant. Imo, that sounds too much like past RL excuses for slavery. If something is able to formulate a language, religion, culture, etc. then they shouldn't be tamable. You can say that, for example, with dragons that them becoming our companion would be a willing thing. But what about black or twilight dragons? They would not ever willingly serve alongside us. What about beings that are corrupted and there is no way to reason with them? They wouldn't have any reason to serve alongside us, either.

[WerebearGuy]

@Lupis: It's certainly true that taming anything that's too close to humanoid would indeed be ethically questionable. It's likely also why we can't tame the spider people in Firelands and Nyalotha, despite them being nothing more than large spiders. As for the feral druids, I meant the ones that canonically lose their humanity and become actual beasts. Like, they are not night elves or tauren anymore, and never will be again. Maybe that was retconned in one of the books, but I don't buy books for video games if they're not instruction manuals, so I wouldn't know if that happened or not. As Veph pointed out though, we have an example of that coming in the prepatch, which is hilarious.

@Vephriel: I didn't know they turned back into humans when killed. I always ran that place on M+, so I never stopped to see that. I don't run it anymore since SCREW that dungeon and the terrible camera angles, but it's neat to know they do that.

@worgpower: Your punctuation is a bit rough there, but I see your examples. The knuckle-walking yetis are definitely more bestial, such as the ones in Kun-lai Summit and the one we fight in WOTLK's best (worst) raid. Perhaps the humanoid ones are a tad too close for comfort to some, but the ones that move and act like gorillas should definitely be candidates for taming. Gronnlings are definitely more towards the ethical dilemma though; they're hunched mutant ogre/gronn children. Even though they look like alien gorillas, even if they're less...endowed in the head than their more intelligent progenitors.

@Valnaaros: I forgot about the Unshackled. I didn't do much with them since I hate Nazjatar and I didn't do much on my horde alts out there. You raise plenty of good points though!

[Lupis]

Oh wow, that pig that turns into a human is a bit... unfortunate. Probably an oversight but yikes!

If we did ever get yetis, I agree that the big, gorilla-skeleton using ones would likely be the only ones. But that wouldn't make much sense mechanically considering other yetis that don't use that skin seem to somehow be of the same species (I'm thinking of the big guy in Tiragarde that uses the gorilla skeleton and all his regular, upright friends). Letting us tame some but having the others be off limits raises a few more uncomfortable questions about why those ones in particular can be tamed. :,D

But I'm also very picky on the subject! IMO if it has a chance of being a person/a humanoid... I'd rather not take the risk of trying to finagle a reason to tame it.

[Quiv]

I've always found this to be an interesting thing to consider. I think there is space that could be explored for taming intelligent beings, but it requires recognizing the clear difference between taming as a gameplay mechanic, and taming as a fantasy.

When we tame in game, we channel a cast for a few seconds, and a beast that was eating our face suddenly becomes our BFF. While Classic brought more flavor to this with happiness, this still doesn't exemplify the heart of whats happening. The fantasy of taming isn't over in a couple seconds, it takes time to win the beast's trust, loyalty, and ultimately love. The gameplay mechanic is over in a few seconds, and thats why it in no way exemplifies whats actually happening.

Taming an intelligent beast can't be viewed through the gameplay mechanic because of this, its purely a fantasy discussion. And this is where I think space can be reasonably explored. Hunters do not force creatures, intelligent or not, to serve us against their will. Thats Warlock fantasy, not Hunter fantasy. Hunter companions are a relationship that takes time to build, and while intelligence does add more dimensions to the relationship, I still think its interesting. We build relationships with intelligent beings in all the time. In fact, I would argue that an intelligent being our companion is more compelling by the very nature of intelligence.

So I don't view the idea of taming an intelligent being as casting a spell on a hostile mob, thats not what taming any being truly is. There is a clear separation that has to be seen between the mechanic and the fantasy. I would view taming something intelligent as the hunter and the beast coming into to mutual relationship together. This is why I would love to "tame" a Druid, not because I want to make a druid my servant. I just love the idea of a Hunter and Druid working as a close team, a deep partnership and companionship. I think Bowen and Draco in the Dragonheart movie. The fact I use an in-game UI element to "control" it doesn't dictate that fantasy to me.

My personal feelings aside, I don't think its a truly good fit for the game. I would much rather the skins that intelligent beings use be put on separate NPCs, but only where it makes sense. I could see Chi-Ji's model being put on an NPC that wasn't intelligent, but I don't think the same could work for Druid skins. I think its paramount it make sense in the current design we have. However, if they decide to ever open this door, it'll be interesting. Ultimately, I can't recall who said it in the other thread, but we think wayyyyyy more about this than they do.

[WerebearGuy]

@Lupis: Think of the issue like this; we can tame moose, oxen, yaks, and other hooved beasts, yet we can't tame Tauren of any variety. They both have hooves, horns, and resemble the most majestic Canadian animal, but one's a person and the other is a powerful beast that yields to nothing.

@Quiv: I'll be honest, I just want the model of a Tauren cat form at my side, but your argument is definitely well thought out. We definitely think too hard on the topic though; the point of a hunter in WoW is to have cool stuff following us! We can roleplay any way we want since our character isn't decided for us by default, but the rule of cool overrides the rule of thumb! ...In most cases!

[Nazja]

I am with Qraljar on this. Yeah, we have tamed sentient beings before, but those were just exceptional individuals and not an entire species. Also, I doubt that beings like Nalak being tameable translates into hunters being able to turn him into their companion. That’s just game-mechanics and a way to provide hunters with a neat new skin, not lore.

It could be argued that raptors are already an example of an entire sentient species being able to be tamed and that we could make another exception for yetis. However, putting aside a few quests in the Barrens and references in books, when you look at a raptor it clearly is just another non-humanoid animal that would not look out of place as a hunter’s pet. The same can’t be said about most yeti.

[Quiv]

@Quiv: I'll be honest, I just want the model of a Tauren cat form at my side, but your argument is definitely well thought out. We definitely think too hard on the topic though; the point of a hunter in WoW is to have cool stuff following us! We can roleplay any way we want since our character isn't decided for us by default, but the rule of cool overrides the rule of thumb! ...In most cases!

At the end of the day, I'm all for the rule of cool too. I'm not hard-nosed about any of it, and I do enjoy more variety for sure!

[Zoruaronan]

I mean... If were talking about intelligent creatures... Those weird lave spider creatures in firelands/molten front would be weird as tameable beast.

I could see them being all like "Oh so now im your pet? even though im a creature with a brain and has hands im apparently a pet.... Ok then?"

AND BEFORE YOU SAY "Oh but most of them are humanoids" I have seen ones that are beasts. Also we should add them to the list of unavailable pet looks for spiders.

[Cozzene]

My black and twilight drakes cart me around without dumping me randomly midair... which we can excuse away with "game mechanics > lore". See holy/disc undead and void elves.

How much lore are we willing to wave away and make excuses for to get new, interesting models/families?