Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#41 Unread post by Royi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:42 am

Sasrei wrote:I think the bag should go for everyone, dps works just as hard as the tank (I sometimes end up tanking with my pet more then the tank) that in itself would make more people want to que up mostly cause I am dps, never tanked or healed and dont really wanna..
If the bag goes for everyone, then there still would be the problem of waiting 35-45 minutes for a dungeon as a dps. It would not increase the amount of healers or tanks to queue up for a dungeon. Blizzard is doing this to get lower queue times for all, not to keep everything the same.

In all honesty if you dont want to level up a healer or tank or dont care to play them, then this would just be a benefit to those that do and you'll be out of luck. Sure you get left out, but theres things that benefit certain classes over others in this game.

Personally I would love a Warlock fire horse mount on a character, but since I dont like playing Warlocks should I be given this mount on my Hunter to make it fair for those people who dont like playing Warlocks?
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#42 Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:51 pm

Royi wrote:
Sasrei wrote:I think the bag should go for everyone, dps works just as hard as the tank (I sometimes end up tanking with my pet more then the tank) that in itself would make more people want to que up mostly cause I am dps, never tanked or healed and dont really wanna..
If the bag goes for everyone, then there still would be the problem of waiting 35-45 minutes for a dungeon as a dps. It would not increase the amount of healers or tanks to queue up for a dungeon. Blizzard is doing this to get lower queue times for all, not to keep everything the same.

In all honesty if you dont want to level up a healer or tank or dont care to play them, then this would just be a benefit to those that do and you'll be out of luck. Sure you get left out, but theres things that benefit certain classes over others in this game.

Personally I would love a Warlock fire horse mount on a character, but since I dont like playing Warlocks should I be given this mount on my Hunter to make it fair for those people who dont like playing Warlocks?
Hate to tell you but the bag won't help either tho to just be given to tanks/healers. I deal with far too many failtanks/failheals. This is just gonna give people more incentive to que up for what role they DONT actually play but just want the bag.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#43 Unread post by Vephriel » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:11 pm

Jessibelle wrote: Hate to tell you but the bag won't help either tho to just be given to tanks/healers. I deal with far too many failtanks/failheals. This is just gonna give people more incentive to que up for what role they DONT actually play but just want the bag.
Sure they can queue up if they're a horrible tank/healer, but they have to complete the entire dungeon in order to get the bag. If they're really that bad, they're going to get kicked or not survive to the end, so it encourages people playing well and learning to play a prime role in order to gain the rewards. This isn't a shortcut to be used by anyone with the ability to take advantage of a Tank or Healer role...they have to work for it to earn the bonus. I think this will have a more positive impact by forcing many people who are lackluster to shape up and better their performance in order to reach that goal.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#44 Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:20 pm

Vephriel wrote:
Jessibelle wrote: Hate to tell you but the bag won't help either tho to just be given to tanks/healers. I deal with far too many failtanks/failheals. This is just gonna give people more incentive to que up for what role they DONT actually play but just want the bag.
Sure they can queue up if they're a horrible tank/healer, but they have to complete the entire dungeon in order to get the bag. If they're really that bad, they're going to get kicked or not survive to the end, so it encourages people playing well and learning to play a prime role in order to gain the rewards. This isn't a shortcut to be used by anyone with the ability to take advantage of a Tank or Healer role...they have to work for it to earn the bonus. I think this will have a more positive impact by forcing many people who are lackluster to shape up and better their performance in order to reach that goal.
We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree cause I heavily disagree. I think it is a shortcut. The people that play well currently are already in the ques. A lot of us now just prefer to que with guildies.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#45 Unread post by Sasrei » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:35 pm

Umm actually what is going to happen is failtanks and failheals getted qued, get everyone killed and then noone can kick em for 2 hours so you either try repeatedly on one boss or mob to just die countless times, raking up you repair bills to essentially get the same thing you would have had you done, you just get less of a chance of tank/healer who knows what the heck they are doing, so then youlld drop dungeon.. wait 15 mins to get into another dungeon but who are kidding itll probably take what.. 10 mins to get in still.. so I really dont see the huge difference, just in repair bills, frustration, and insults to the tanks/healers and dps.

noone likes pugging.. there is a reason that is so lol

still doesnt take away the fact that I do have alot of guild tanks who would rather go with guildies, its more fun, and thats what blizzard wants.. the guilds to do more guild things together, now guilds will no longer be able to group together

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#46 Unread post by Royi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:43 pm

Vephriel wrote:
Jessibelle wrote: Hate to tell you but the bag won't help either tho to just be given to tanks/healers. I deal with far too many failtanks/failheals. This is just gonna give people more incentive to que up for what role they DONT actually play but just want the bag.
Sure they can queue up if they're a horrible tank/healer, but they have to complete the entire dungeon in order to get the bag. If they're really that bad, they're going to get kicked or not survive to the end, so it encourages people playing well and learning to play a prime role in order to gain the rewards. This isn't a shortcut to be used by anyone with the ability to take advantage of a Tank or Healer role...they have to work for it to earn the bonus. I think this will have a more positive impact by forcing many people who are lackluster to shape up and better their performance in order to reach that goal.
^^This

To add I think it will convince good players who would rather DPS to switch to tanking/healing. It will actually encourage people who play a tank or a healer to learn how to play better (as Veph said). I think at first there might be a small decline (for newer tanks and newer healers attempting to learn), but overall there will be more players exposed to tanking and healing in the end, thus making a better tank/healer player base later on.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#47 Unread post by Vasken » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:55 pm

I think it's good. While it may bring in folk who're absolutely awful and aren't geared for tanking/healing, it may also persuade the more geared, raiding tanks to pop into a heroic sometimes.

I've just started tanking heroics on my bear and damn. The abuse you get is absolutely bonkers! You get blamed for everything, even if it wasn't your fault. Unable to keep aggro from trigger-happy recount-spamming gogoers? Tank's fault. People stood in the bad? Tank's fault. Heck, even the healer gets dragged in. People break CC? Tank's fault. People overaggro? Tank's fault. While it's a good initiative to perhaps push more folk to tank, it doesn't really eliminate the main problem- the other members of the group's behaviour. I've not yet ONCE met a non-abusive, friendly member in my tank's LFD group. Not once! Personally refuse to set foot in LFD with non-guildees on my tank/healer druid!

It's a shame that DPSers have such long waits (irritates me on my hunter!), but your job is genuinely slightly easier and less stressfull in comparison, in my opinion at least. Still, it's hard to determine if this'll work out without trying. Hopefully it'll reduce wait times! The mounts/pets that have a chance of dropping are easily farmable with most classes, I'm not too sure why people are a little worked up about them. :o

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#48 Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:01 pm

Sasrei wrote:Umm actually what is going to happen is failtanks and failheals getted qued, get everyone killed and then noone can kick em for 2 hours so you either try repeatedly on one boss or mob to just die countless times, raking up you repair bills to essentially get the same thing you would have had you done, you just get less of a chance of tank/healer who knows what the heck they are doing, so then youlld drop dungeon.. wait 15 mins to get into another dungeon but who are kidding itll probably take what.. 10 mins to get in still.. so I really dont see the huge difference, just in repair bills, frustration, and insults to the tanks/healers and dps.

noone likes pugging.. there is a reason that is so lol

still doesnt take away the fact that I do have alot of guild tanks who would rather go with guildies, its more fun, and thats what blizzard wants.. the guilds to do more guild things together, now guilds will no longer be able to group together
^^^^^ This 10x

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#49 Unread post by Royi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:10 pm

Vasken wrote:It's a shame that DPSers have such long waits (irritates me on my hunter!), but your job is genuinely slightly easier and less stressfull in comparison, in my opinion at least. Still, it's hard to determine if this'll work out without trying. Hopefully it'll reduce wait times! The mounts/pets that have a chance of dropping are easily farmable with most classes, I'm not too sure why people are a little worked up about them. :o
Yeah what class cant solo Baron (whos now mid-40s) at lvl 85?

DPSing is incredibly less stress, I can halfway pay attention, watch tv, eat cereal, and still manage to pull adequate numbers for dungeon boss fights as a DPS, and plus if i go afk for 20 seconds on a trash pull, nothing bad generally happens. As a tank or especially as a healer, if you fail to pay attention for 5 seconds that could cause a wipe in the group. For those roles I can see why not as many people queue up for it, and this will help dungeon queue times.

Overall the main purpose of this is to make the QUEUE times shorter, and this will rectify that problem. Yes the quality of tanks and healers might be lowered in the beginning, but overall it will get better and there will be more people who know how to tank/heal in the end




~~~~~~~~~
There was a post on the official website that I find informative on this:
Verchiel wrote: As a tank I can say that this would genuinely incentivize me to queue for more than a single random a day. Currently I run my one random (usually queueing single), get my VP, maybe an orb, and I'm done for the day. I don't need the gear, the money's not that great, and knowing that there's a resonable changce that 2 or more others will roll against me for the orb discourages me from doing more than one a day. Once I don't need the VP, what's my incentive? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I honestly don't mind running a heroic with four random group members so long as there are adequate rewards, and this would constitute an adequate reward. I agree that this may unfairly favor tanks, but other classes need to balance their desire for retaining item exclusivity/rarity with their desire for lower queue times. The solution may not be perfect, but I'm not seeing many alternatives suggested by the community, and this seems like a simple, elegant way to address the community's primary problem directly with minimal change to the system overall (so that it can be implemented as soon as possible).
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#50 Unread post by Royi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:18 pm

Ok Stealing one more quote, but this one is incredibly WIN:
Magicstixs wrote: You know when I first saw this I thought finally a bandaid for the queue times. Then I read all the comments about people complaining and thought there is something seriously wrong with our society. Here is my opinion on the matter.
1. Queue times will be lower for pure dps classes. That's a win. No longer will you have to just sit around waiting cause you finished all your daily quests and you have done enough gathering to fill your bags twice. Stop complaining. Less queue times mean you get your VP faster.
2. Incentive. We have a lack of tanks and healers in the game. Period. Although some opinions suggest it's not enough it's something to get folks and it won't currupt the game economy no more than Tanks and healers selling their queue times.
3. It's a mount and you are an 85 clothie. You can run Stratholm or Sethek Halls in ten minutes and get the dang thing or just be a tank and hope the thing drops which will probably have a low drop rate. Having the pretty mount doesn't make you a valuable person to have in a group. Get over it.

In closing the Random Dungeon tool is an innovation and if you remember when it wasn't around and you had to beg in trade chat for a run you thank your lucky stars for having it. We live in a society that has more followers than leaders. That's why we have a lack of tanks and healers. Everyone just want's to sit back and pew pew. Because of this there will always be a lack of tanks and healers. This "bandaid" at least gives an incentive for tanks to run multiple times. You are going to want this so bad when blizz makes the switch to earning max VP in one day and you find no one is running a dungeon on a monday. Thank you Blizzard for trying to make the experiance of a dps better. And please, please don't listen to folks who like to complain just to complain.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#51 Unread post by Chimera » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:24 pm

Sasrei wrote: still doesnt take away the fact that I do have alot of guild tanks who would rather go with guildies, its more fun, and thats what blizzard wants.. the guilds to do more guild things together, now guilds will no longer be able to group together
I agree, though my guild which i still love to death is well, dead.. no ones logged on for well over a week now ;^; other guilds that are actually active do take advantage of the system where they get together and run things for guild exp and reputation. I like that idea more cause i really enjoyed it when i ran with my guildies through dungeons ^-^

sadly though Call To Arms is only for those who are Pugging rather then grouping... >_>;;

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#52 Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:32 pm

Royi....I'd like to point out....two places I've run for 2 years.

Sethikk Halls: Seen ravenlord ONCE. i gave it to my friend rather than taking it for myself cause it was her dream mount. Haven't seen it since.

Magister's Terrace: Seen White Hawkstrider once. I have it on my druid. Haven't seen it since for Jessi.

Stratholme: Never once seen the stupid mount there. ><;

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#53 Unread post by Nachtwulf » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:39 pm

I have to agree with the person above commenting on the sheer nastiness of pug groups. Tanking is hard, even more so in Cata. And there's STILL a huge number of Wrathbabies out there that think the solution to everything is to Starshards the crap out of things before you can so much as drop a thunderstomp. And then when they get their face eaten, that's right, it's your fault. Always.

(Boomkin and mages are definitely the worst offenders in my experience. Hunter AOE has been nerfed to the point where as long as they aren't running ahead and pulling for you, they aren't usually a problem, and rogues are so squishy they generally mind themselves pretty well.)

It's not that I hate tanking. It's that I hate the sheer, rampant idiocy I'm forced to deal with when I do. Breaking CC, standing in fire, not stopping dps when you're supposed to, ass-hugging dragons, I've seen it all. And what's even worse is, the idiots usually either ignore (or can't read) party chat, and they took out the ability to use /rw in 5mans. Bloody hell, forget pets, give me my damn raid warning ability back. **DOINK** HAY STUPID STOP BEING A MORON!! **DOINK** Right there in the middle of the screen where the idiots can't miss it.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#54 Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:46 pm

Aleu wrote:Didn't they say you can only have a chance at the mounts dropping from the bags if you complete the dungeon the mount drops from? Such as, if you're leveling a tank (I say Tank because I honestly believe no other role will get it besides tank. Maybe Healer) and got into a heroic Sethekk Halls. I believe then you have a chance at the Raven Lord mount, but once you out level that dungeon you may no longer have a chance at it. This would mean max level characters still have to grind it out. If not... Then just make it have the same drop rate as the actual dungeon drop. >>
Considering this ONLY works in level 85 dungeons, no, it is *not* based on the current dungeon you're in. It's a free chance for level 85 heroic ready tanks (and healers) to get free stuff just for queueing while their role is under the Call to Arms effect.

@Kurasu: I'm trying to stay as neutral about this as I can, but after being abused pretty badly in random PuGs, the idea of tanking again without people I know around me makes me want to give the LFD system a big middle finger. Especially since on Nesingwary, my main is a pure DPSer and I'd like to collect all my mounts and mini-pets on her and not some other class I'd have to level just to get those rewards. I listed an alternative solution a few posts ago where I quoted someone from MMO-C who gave the idea for a rotating Call To Arms for *all* rolls.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#55 Unread post by Rhapture » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:01 pm

The idea has potential but feels like it needs to go back to the drawing board a bit longer an it just feels like it may end up creating more problems that will affect the economy for some professions and that it may lead to an influx of people skipping bosses that people need just so they can get to the end faster. Not to mention those that spent hours/days/months farming for a pet or mount feel insulted to see it handed to someone just for hitting the queue button. I personally don't mind putting in the time for mounts/pets the "old fashioned" way but it just feels unfair to only reward certain classes.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#56 Unread post by Royi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:01 pm

Xakaal wrote:
Sasrei wrote: still doesnt take away the fact that I do have alot of guild tanks who would rather go with guildies, its more fun, and thats what blizzard wants.. the guilds to do more guild things together, now guilds will no longer be able to group together
I agree, though my guild which i still love to death is well, dead.. no ones logged on for well over a week now ;^; other guilds that are actually active do take advantage of the system where they get together and run things for guild exp and reputation. I like that idea more cause i really enjoyed it when i ran with my guildies through dungeons ^-^

sadly though Call To Arms is only for those who are Pugging rather then grouping... >_>;;
I think its dumb that a tank/healer will have to queue by themselves though. If a Tank is in need in the finder, they should be able to at least bring along friends/guildies. The solo thing i'm not soo keen on (because being with 4 random people in a PUG as a tank or healer can get very nasty)
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#57 Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:03 pm

I imagine it's to try and help those people who prefer solo play, or even encourage more tanks who would normally avoid the dungeon finder to use it. I've seen a few people on MMO-C say that this feature would make them start queueing for random heroics again because otherwise they have no need to be doing randoms.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#58 Unread post by Ziarre » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:08 pm

Thing is...they don't get the goodies just for hitting the queue button. They have to stick the dungeon out to the end, and Cata heroics have enough mechanics involved that it's usually less than a faceroll. In short, you have to be good enough to keep your party alive until the end boss is dead. While I was infuriated by this at first, I soon realized that farming your chosen instance for a mount you want is probably still easier than doing a Call to Arms and hoping you win the goody-bag lottery.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#59 Unread post by Vasken » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:10 pm

Jessibelle wrote:Royi....I'd like to point out....two places I've run for 2 years.

Sethikk Halls: Seen ravenlord ONCE. i gave it to my friend rather than taking it for myself cause it was her dream mount. Haven't seen it since.

Magister's Terrace: Seen White Hawkstrider once. I have it on my druid. Haven't seen it since for Jessi.

Stratholme: Never once seen the stupid mount there. ><;
Sethekk Halls, easily farmable. Magister's Terrace, easily farmable. Stratholme, easily farmable.

Really don't understand your point! It's either a very, very low drop chance from a boss that takes all of 10 minutes, or a very, very low drop chance from a heroic run that can take anything from 20 minutes to three hours. Tanking (and healing) is a lot of work in comparison to what DPS are required to do- many people fail to recognize this. :(
... the guilds to do more guild things together, now guilds will no longer be able to group together.
Even with this feature, I'd still primarily do guild runs on my tank! Less grief, less abuse, less wipes, more fun! Though, the bag is tempting... A run or two can't hurt... Right?

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#60 Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:12 pm

Ziarre wrote:Thing is...they don't get the goodies just for hitting the queue button. They have to stick the dungeon out to the end, and Cata heroics have enough mechanics involved that it's usually less than a faceroll. In short, you have to be good enough to keep your party alive until the end boss is dead. While I was infuriated by this at first, I soon realized that farming your chosen instance for a mount you want is probably still easier than doing a Call to Arms and hoping you win the goody-bag lottery.
This is true, and it might be enough to make even someone like me go crawling out to tank a dungeon on my DK even though I'd much rather DPS.

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