Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#61 Unread post by Tilo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:40 pm

I dunno on my healer(s) one is guilded, & one isn't, I rarely get asked within guild specifically to do a run, so a lot of the dungeon runs are solo play; very rarely I get to be the wanted dps in a run, example you join & you were the needed class as dps, but it does happen occasionally.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#62 Unread post by Sasrei » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:59 pm

Well lets see

Sethekk Halls, easily farmable. Magister's Terrace, easily farmable. Stratholme, easily farmable.

The only thing is Strath is the only one you can do multiple times until you are so sick of the baron you see him in your dreams. SH and MT are heroics and you can only do them once a day, while if you do it the heroics to say.. I dont know, get the gear you need, or valor points, or much needed experience for raid you can keep queing all day long and theres a chance you may get something like a mount from any of the dungeons like, and it is by just queing, you dont have to be in that dungeon to get it

Vitreous Stone Drake (Stonecore)
Drake of the North Wind (vortex pinnacle)
Blue Proto-Drake (◦Utgarde Pinnacle)
◦Anzu - Sethekk Halls (Heroic)
◦Kael'thas Sunstrider - Magister's Terrace (Heroic)
◦Baron Rivendare -Stratholme

including multiple mini pets

including rare gems, flasks that sell alot, and extra gold

so yes we may kill YOU tanks or heals over dumb things (even I agree) the only difference is, when I leave the dungeon I dont have a chance of repaying all my deaths ten fold or a rare mount who yes is rare! anzu sucks, skadi sucks.. and baron is evil :lol:

so rare chance of getting it yes, but you do it enough something is bound to drop doesnt it?

the only good thatll come out of this for dps is if all the dps go onto their healers or tanks so that we can get one atleast once a week..

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#63 Unread post by Xella » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:08 pm

I brought this comparison up in other places but I still feel it still fits so I'm going to bring it up here (if you're not new to Cataclysm a large portion of this will be simply reminding you of stuff you already know; sorry!): Oculus was the bane of every randomer without at least 3/4 of a brain back when we were randoming Wrath dungeons, because it relied on the still-new-and-clunky vehicle combat for the final battle, and for most of the trash prior to it. One could also make the argument that the battles involving the drakes were overtuned for average pug level competence, because it required tight execution and play from vehicles with mechanics the game hadn't previously taught to the player, so if you had someone new to the instance in your group, you had to stop and explain how things worked—not only the boss' but also their own, and possibly watch them die horribly because they were overwhelmed with all the new stuff they had to learn all at once (I later came to look upon that as one of those "mega disaster" shows they show on discovery/history/science, a trainwreck in slow motion and looped as the commentators talk about how terrible it was, but nevermind.)

This caused a LOT of people to simply drop group and take the deserter debuff the instant they got off the Oculus loading screen—because they personally didn't like the instance, because there was a general level of "can't rush through and AoE everything now that it's past the first month," and because once you lost two or three people, it was invariably just faster to go back to your own server and sit through the queue again.

So they nerfed Oculus. A lot of people never gave it a second glance and just kept bailing, because the overall "fun" quota of the instance hadn't changed—it still required you to use vehicles you were never trained to use, it still couldn't be mindlessly zerged like every other dungeon—and because the problems that would trip it up before the vehicles started hitting harder weren't caused by the vehicles hitting like that pink fluffy ornamental grass they sell on QVC (and which I would totally splurge for if we had a garden and not an apartment), it was caused by fundamental issues with the dungeon's pacing and with the nature of pugs.

Seeing that Oculus was still getting the short end of the stick despite having been boiled down to the point where people could cross their eyes at Eregos and he'd keel over (no lie, once towards the end I did the Eregos fight using only one hand on my keyboard and the other supporting one of those supposedly-3D images in random patterns they print on cardboard. Never did see the castle that was supposedly there...), Blizzard decided that an incentive system would be the best way to get people to not drop immediately. If you randomed into Oculus (and ONLY if you randomed, you couldn't specific-queue), upon the death of the last boss, you'd find a bag in his loot chest, which would contain some random gems, some gold, and a small chance at the Reins of the Blue Drake, which had previously been on Malygos-10's person. This actually had quite a few positive points in its favour, which I'll come back to in a second.

The biggest downside, of course, was that not everyone was interested in the mount, and certainly not everyone who's using the dungeon finder to do randoms. So instead of having people almost-unanimously take the deserter debuff if Oculus popped up, you'd end up with a group of 2-4 people who didn't give two hoots about some crappy gems and a mount they'd never ride, and one person trying desperately to get them to NOT drop because if there was only one person left in the group, the LFD tool won't let you find replacements for your group anymore (since you no longer had a group)... so those twenty-seven instances you did that day just so you could random into Oculus for a 5% chance at the drake? Completely and totally wasted. I have a notebook of the sort I keep around my computer for notes and doodles FILLED with statistics, based on my own experiences in the ~600 random dungeons I ran post-Blue Drake migration, of how often Oculus came up (for me it was less than the 1/16 chance it should have been), how long the queues took (both alone and with a tankadin friend of mine that would occasionally come help), how many people on average dropped group before the first trash pull (not just in Oculus; HoR was probably the only other dungeon that inspired the same amount of "oh, screw this"-ism from pugs and the leap in difficulty between one and the other that still managed to elicit such reactions would make me laugh if it didn't make me cry), how many mounts I saw other people get (how many of those then said "lol, another one? that's the fourth this week!" or something else that made me want to stab large pieces of rusty pipe through their esophaguses. Esophagi?), and so on. When we get a real house and all my boxes move up from CA, I may end up tabulating and posting those numbers somewhere, just for the morbid "fun" of it.

I can't remember if Oculus went through Yet Another Nerf after the bags went in; I think it did but I can't recall for certain. In any case, the bag was enough incentive to get mount farmers randoming, but it wasn't a good incentive for people who didn't care to stick around and help out their fellow players.

The Oculus bag did have some positive effects as previously mentioned, and I think some of those will carry over nicely to the Call to Arms. Notably:

Previously, you could only get the Blue Drake from one source—10-player Malygos. This was back when 10 and 25-player dungeons were split so it's not like you had to choose between going for the Blue vs. going for the Azure, but you did have to worry about a very small dropchance (1-5% I'd guess, probably 1% like most other mount drops, but the bag was 5% so maybe not), and fighting over it with up to nine other people if and when it did finally drop. Moving the mount to the bag had two positives for mount collectors: with the Blue in 5-mans, Blizzard moved the Azure to include both 10- and 25-man Malygos, giving raiders who were able to get the groups for it two chances at the Azure drake a week. The Blue, on the other hand, wasn't limited at all, except by your play time and your ability to stomach running random after random (and your skill at manipulating your average item level so you could knock down your possible randoms from 1/16 to 1/12—I was never very good at that, all my gear having been 264+, so I always recruited someone's green machine alt to run randoms with me when I could). There were several days, when Rowend (my protadin friend) and I both had nothing more pressing to do with our time, that we ran over 50 randoms before one or both of us couldn't wait for the other to get tired and give up for the day. For CTA, players who have access to the Call will be able to bypass the 5 instance cap (instances opened via LFD count towards your cap, but will not be affected if you're already at cap)—that is, a tank/healer with CTA available can run 5x Strat and then queue for LFD and continue having chances at Baron's Deathcharger, instead of having to wait the 30m-1h for their instance cap to expire. Similarly, if a CTA-eligible player has already locked themselves to Heroic Sethekk and Heroic Magister's Terrace, they will be able to continue to run dungeons in search of those mounts instead of waiting until 9am the next day for another shot.

My tank friend told me once that the "only reason" he was willing to run the instances with me was because it was a good source of gold (and epic gem transmute mats, when we did finally get Oculus). I suspect he had other motives (like friendship!), but he's a cagey sort and it's hard to get a straight/complete answer out of him some days ;P I certainly know he made a bundle betting with other guildmates against me getting the mount on any given run, though! If the CTA gold/gem reward is sufficient, I can see him going back to running randoms all day long like we did in Wrath, because it'll be the most efficient way for him to make money (well, he'll also have to get bored of Rift in order to care, but y'know how it is). The big difference here is that because the reward will be tied to him solo-queuing, we DPS won't be able to tag along for the ride anymore unless we bribe him (which we do nowadays for alts, since everyone's mains have everything they need). Additionally, he won't have to wait for the Cataclysm-equivalent of Oculus to pop up in order to make the extra money because every random he does will fork it over at the end.

From a purely selfish perspective, every random I do on my shaman is a random I don't need, unless it's Stonecore or Vortex Pinnacle (and chances are it'll be a useless run there too, since I've never seen either drake drop). Why aren't I rewarded for helping out people who still need the gear and the valor points? Where's my "stick me in the queue to prop up a group's DPS and give me a mount" bag? Or better, where's my "okay I'm not called to arms, I don't need the instances, I'll leave my spot in the queue open to a DPS who cares... now take away the instance cap so I can keep farming strat until my eyes bleed, not until the server says I can't anymore"?

(If I could tank on my shaman, I would. Unfortunately, my guild needed the wrong hybrid when I rerolled from my warrior at the end of twitch-inducing Hyjal tanking, so I only have one tree I enjoy, not 2-3 :\)

I had a lot more I was going to say here, going into some of the drawbacks of the Oculus bag on the overall tone of Wrath heroics, but without my Big Book 'o Dataz I can't really back it up... and I've hit character cap. Oops.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#64 Unread post by Loki » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:15 pm

I think this idea is stupid. I picked Hunter because of their pets, not because they were pure DPS classes, and for tanks/healers to be given nice shiny mounts and pets while doing dungeons (plus saying cross-faction makes me believe unique pets) and not even letting Hunters have the option to tank is rather unfair. I actually farm those things instead of doing Lv 85 dungeons, so to be able to do both at the same time and not letting Hunters, Locks, Mages and Rogues even get a look in on all the cool shiny stuff seems like a really bad move.

I don't know what would be a good move, but this isn't it. The money and flasks, even extra honor/justice points would be fine. But I don't think pets and mounts are the right way to go about it.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#65 Unread post by Xella » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:21 pm

I wonder.

Call To Arms: You are needed as a [role] to vanquish the foes of the [faction name here]! Upon completion of this random dungeon, your party will receive [Call To Arms goodies].

Would that be a better implementation? CTA'd folks solo-queueing would get into a group, and upon completion, EVERYONE in that group got a bag of goodies because the tank/healer was CTA'd. It still encourages tanks and healers to solo queue when its their turn on the LFD wheel 'o fortune, but DPS aren't left out in the cold because if they get paired with a CTA'd tank/healer, they still get some reward. Meanwhile, if they got paired with a tank/healer who was queuing with a partial group, they'd get the potential benefit of it being a partial guild group and the dungeon going faster. DPS wouldn't get the benefit every time but in theory they'd still get SOME benefit, including (hopefully) the shorter queue times.

I'm not sure if that dilutes the "you're special and we want you to queue so have some goodies" that the CTA as explained by Blizzard has too much, though.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#66 Unread post by Magnakilro » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:48 pm

@ Loki:

I think by "cross-faction pets" it means things like the mini pets sold at/near each capital (SW's cats, Org's snakes, TB's P. Dawgs, Darn's Owls, IF's Hares, UC's Roaches, SMV's Dragonhawks, and Exodar's Moths.), and MAYBE (I'm iffy on this one) the Argent Tourney pets.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#67 Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:03 pm

Xella wrote:I wonder.

Call To Arms: You are needed as a [role] to vanquish the foes of the [faction name here]! Upon completion of this random dungeon, your party will receive [Call To Arms goodies].

Would that be a better implementation? CTA'd folks solo-queueing would get into a group, and upon completion, EVERYONE in that group got a bag of goodies because the tank/healer was CTA'd. It still encourages tanks and healers to solo queue when its their turn on the LFD wheel 'o fortune, but DPS aren't left out in the cold because if they get paired with a CTA'd tank/healer, they still get some reward. Meanwhile, if they got paired with a tank/healer who was queuing with a partial group, they'd get the potential benefit of it being a partial guild group and the dungeon going faster. DPS wouldn't get the benefit every time but in theory they'd still get SOME benefit, including (hopefully) the shorter queue times.

I'm not sure if that dilutes the "you're special and we want you to queue so have some goodies" that the CTA as explained by Blizzard has too much, though.
I like this MUCH better. Everyone gets a reward for cooperating.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#68 Unread post by Chimera » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:06 pm

I like the thought where it should be a reward for completing a random dungeon like the goodie bags in Azeroth dungeons. You get one for every random you do which is really nice :3 if they do that for the lvl 85 heroic dungeons which is what they're planning to give Call to Arms to first, it will let everyone benefit by giving ppl incentive to complete the dungeon.

Tanks and healers will que (this is the whole point of it), shorter que times as a result, and everyone benefits. (And hopefully they'll give this to WotLK heroics and TBC heroics and get rid of the requirement where you need keys to unlock TBC heroics)

As well as posting this here, im gonna post it on that Call to Arms page i posted

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#69 Unread post by Rawr » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:23 pm

The problem with this thing is this; I (as a DPS)am going to have to suffer though randoms with Cats who decided they wanted a goody bag so they qued as a tank or Ele Shammans whom have decided that Chain Heal was all they needed, do that as many times as they want to get a goody bag and screw over the rest of the party AND I STILL have do grind those instances (2 of which I can only do once a day for mounts). This isn't fair, if anything this is going to make ques worse, if WHEN the off-spec healer/tank shows up and the group fails people will disband and get back into que.........one of the worst ideas Blizz has ever had. :mrgreen:

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#70 Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:27 pm

What people are failing to realize is that you *have* to defeat the last boss to get the goody bag, which means if you get a DPS specced feral druid for a tank, kick them. If you get an elemental shaman trying to heal, kick them. You can help rid yourself of the bad tanks/healers queueing and prevent them from getting a bag.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#71 Unread post by Saturo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:30 pm

All that kicking will eventually result in us having to wait for two hours before initiating kicks, or hell, what if we just get a new scrub? This is hardly a solution to anything, if you don't count DPS going "Fuck dungeons, it'll just end in grief" as a positive thing.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#72 Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:33 pm

Aye, but you can't completely discount being able to kick the scrubs, not to mention, the amount of really well-geared, skilled tanks that are saying this will bring them back to LFD. If it lowers the queue times for DPS, than it's solved the problem. I don't necessarily agree with it, I'm just playing devil's advocate because we haven't seen the system in action.

We can't say whether it's good or bad at this point because it's not even in effect.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#73 Unread post by Chimera » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:36 pm

I would really like if they reduced the timer on party kicks since party kicking someone puts that invisible debuff on you for 2 hours regardless on if your in the same dungeon as when you initiated it or not. Really pisses me off when i run into a f*ed up group that cant even make it to the first boss so that i can leave without getting a debuff

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#74 Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:38 pm

Xakaal wrote:I would really like if they reduced the timer on party kicks since party kicking someone puts that invisible debuff on you for 2 hours regardless on if your in the same dungeon as when you initiated it or not. Really pisses me off when i run into a f*ed up group that cant even make it to the first boss so that i can leave without getting a debuff
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#75 Unread post by Chimera » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:43 pm

YESSS Omg i was in Grim Batol just a little while ago and they were very attentive to me, i was able to freeze trap without it breaking 100% of the time, same for the shamans hex, they listened to my explanations on the dragon bombings and the bosses but ive been in sooooo many where its absolute hell and i just want to claw my way out lol

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#76 Unread post by Royi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:09 pm

I think it would be a fix on this fix by letting (as Xella said) all members of said group that the healer or the tank queued in get a chance at the bag. It would stop complaining then at least and the tank/healer would still get the benefit of it, and it would encourage people to stay in the group as well.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#77 Unread post by Rhapture » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:09 pm

Yeah I like the idea of everyone getting a bag much better. They could always limit the number of bags you can get in a day or something. That still leaves the concern of what it will do to the economy of certain professions though. That said, if they just gave a bag to everyone it would get rid of the feeling that DPS are "not as important".

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#78 Unread post by Saturo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:13 pm

But if you get a bag regardless, what's the point of queuing up specifically as a tank or a healer?

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#79 Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:19 pm

In a sense, DPS aren't as important. There's 3 of us in a group and bad DPS get carried far more often than bad healers and tanks. Hell, some dungeons and bosses are doable without much input from the DPS. We're there to help make sure things go down faster and to offer CC and interrupts if they're needed. In reality, our job is a lot easier, and a lot less stressful than a tank or healer's job.

And before someone miscontrues what I'm saying: I'm not saying that DPS are pointless and worthless and that we don't ever need them. Obviously we need DPS otherwise dungeons would take forever, and in some cases, be unable to be completed. My main point being that our job as a DPS is typically far more relaxed and we're easier to carry than a tank or healer.

The bag regardless idea, I think, would only happen IF the tank or healer queue and their roll is being called to arms, otherwise no one would get a bag.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

#80 Unread post by Saturo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:22 pm

So... We'd only have short queues at certain times of the week/month? That sounds silly to me. Not to mention that if you're in a group you will have a tank and a healer, which will result in bags regardless.

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