Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Xella » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:24 pm

(since this is the beginning of a new page, this is an expansion of my thoughts on an ALTERNATE Call To Arms reward system, NOT the current one described by Blizzard. See page four!)

Well, I was thinking you're not guaranteed to get a bag if you're DPS—for the following example, I'm going to assume "tank" is the current CTA, though it could easily be replaced with "healer" or (ha!) "dps," so it's only for example clarity here.

My hunter sits in the LFD queue (a task which I am loathe to do once I run out of non-LFD things to do on her) and gets into the group. The group looks like this:

Basanti - Bloodscalp (Hunter)
Appelachiana - Perenolde (Mage)
Alanya - Stormrage (Warlock)
Zenbi - Stormrage (Warrior) - Tank
Xella - Stormrage (Druid) - Healer

Alanya, Zenbi, and Xella queued together, they're in the same guild. When the dungeon is done, everyone gets their normal LFD rewards and goes about their merry way. Against my better judgement, 'Santi requeues and the group looks like this:

Basanti - Bloodscalp (Hunter)
Xellandria - Korgath (Priest)
Xellie - Korgath (Mage)
Xelladin - Korgath (Paladin) - Healer
Delenda - Nesingwary (Death Knight) - Tank

Again, there's a group of three guildies, BUT because the tank is the current Call To Arms and Delenda obviously solo-queued, when the dungeon is done, everyone in the group receives the benefits of Delenda having solo-queued, which 'Santi thanks her for (god only knows what my other alts do, they're stuck-up and only talking to themselves the whole run :P) and goes about her merry way.

In both examples, I've obviously stacked the groups a little bit, and there's a billion ways it can all come out, but in only one of them is the group rewarded for a tank's solo-queue.

The first negative of such a system that comes to my mind is that it discourages partial groups (such as the one from Korgath) from bringing their own CTA, and could potentially have groups intentionally stacking four people, minus the current CTA (healer + 3 dps looking for a pug tank, in this example)... but you can do that in the current system too, and the proposed system is equally discouraging to grouping with friends if you're after a specific reward, so again... I'm not sure how much of a wash it ends up being.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Chimera » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:28 pm

I can imagine they will make different pets, have pets that you have to farm the living hell out of, or if your horde side, offer ally pets and vice versa so that those making pets to sell can still make a profit on what they are making... same for mounts-- they mention offering mounts that you get from that elusive 0.01% or 0.1% drop rate, not mounts that a profession crafts :)

The idea where its a limited number of bags would keep people coming back for more each day. We're never going to make everyone happy. There are tanks and healers who are collectors, theres those who want to something for a profit, others do it in bordem, and others to gear for raids.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Royi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:30 pm

Saturo wrote:But if you get a bag regardless, what's the point of queuing up specifically as a tank or a healer?
Then you're stuck in the same 35 minute queue situation.


I just think that its fine if only tanks and healers are rewarded this way. No tanks or healers have the option to port to major cities. You know to be "fair" my Paladin should be able to port like Mages do. Also my paladin should be able to get a Warlock Mount because a Fire-horse is cool. That would be "fair" that Warlocks wouldn't be the only class that get those mounts. I also think that my Paladin should be able to stealth. Its unfair that Rogues are able to stealth by a bunch of mobs to collect a specific item without having to kill everyone, I think my Paladin should be able to do that. You know what, my Paladin should be able to tame spirit beasts, because that would be fair, i dont need them to do any damage I just would like them by my side so I can be like a hunter too.

Basically that stupid rant of mine boils down to this, in order to get some of the "cool" things in this game, you have to pick certain classes. All of the pure DPS classes have some cool abilities that other classes DONT have. Giving incentive for tanks and healers just adds another "neat" thing about playing that class. QQ about it being unfair, i'm not bothered that my Hunter wont get these loot bags, because if it cuts down the queue time, I'm more happy without having to wait 35 minutes to run a dungeon anymore (being a mostly casual player myself). I dont have that sort of time to wait in a queue for a dungeon. So what if one class might get something shiney, I'll be happy for them. I dont have to be jealous and wine and complain that someone else gets something neat.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:41 pm

I'd rather wait an HOUR in the que to get a GOOD tank rather than wait 10 minutes and get a craptank from hell.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Saturo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:47 pm

Jessibelle wrote:I'd rather wait an HOUR in the que to get a GOOD tank rather than wait 10 minutes and get a craptank from hell.
Exactly.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Wain » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:37 pm

Jessibelle wrote:I'd rather wait an HOUR in the que to get a GOOD tank rather than wait 10 minutes and get a craptank from hell.
Who wouldn't? You seem to be implying that CtA will encourage a higher proportion of bad tanks. I suspect you're wrong. If anything, tanks who are well geared and aren't desperate to pug random heroics are now more likely to apply.

I only dps, I don't tank or heal, but I don't mind this reward so much. DPS classes should reap the reward of getting shorter queues. All people are thinking about is what they're not getting, rather than what they are.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Chimera » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:53 pm

10min opposed to a few seconds isnt that bad though. Its when its 20min+ that it starts to be a nusance.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:03 pm

Wain wrote:
Jessibelle wrote:I'd rather wait an HOUR in the que to get a GOOD tank rather than wait 10 minutes and get a craptank from hell.
Who wouldn't? You seem to be implying that CtA will encourage a higher proportion of bad tanks. I suspect you're wrong. If anything, tanks who are well geared and aren't desperate to pug random heroics are now more likely to apply.

I only dps, I don't tank or heal, but I don't mind this reward so much. DPS classes should reap the reward of getting shorter queues. All people are thinking about is what they're not getting, rather than what they are.
I'm gonna disagree very heavily. The good tanks STILL wont get in because they'd rather be with friends than have a slim chance of getting something good that they can easily farm or already have. This will cause people who dont tank to que as tanks....moreso than they already do cause those that dps want those rewards.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Bodhran » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:14 pm

LupisDarkmoon wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking that I don't like this. >.< Simply out of greed and jealousy, of course. I really would like a chance at those rare mounts, but I highly doubt DPS will EVER get Call To Arms.
^This. Never in a million years and a wave of OOM heals and Aggro less tanks will there be a Call To Arms: DPS.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Rhapture » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:16 pm

ok so what about the idea of the bag going out to a random person in the group? IDK...just trying to think of ways to make it more fair.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:30 pm

Bodhran wrote:
LupisDarkmoon wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking that I don't like this. >.< Simply out of greed and jealousy, of course. I really would like a chance at those rare mounts, but I highly doubt DPS will EVER get Call To Arms.
^This. Never in a million years and a wave of OOM heals and Aggro less tanks will there be a Call To Arms: DPS.
There isn't really supposed to unless this new feature suddenly makes a lot of people want to tank and heal. Our "reward" from this system as a DPS is a lowered time in queue. -_-

Funny thing about that is this:
Any time the Dungeon Finder queue is longer than a few minutes for level-85 Heroics, the Call to Arms system kicks in and determines which role is the least represented.
What determines a few minutes? That's so vague and can be anything from 3 minutes up to like 10 or so depending on how you construe it. I don't understand how it shortens queue times when there's not a set time limit for a queue to last for it to kick in. =/

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:34 pm

Players must queue solo with the currently indicated least represented class (by the system) and complete the dungeon up to and including the final boss in order to be eligible for the bonus reward.
This is interesting and also very vague. Does it mean completing every single boss in the dungeon or just every boss that's relevant to reaching the last boss?

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Saturo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:37 pm

Ugh, I definitely hope it means just the last boss. Sure, I don't like skipping all that much, but I like wasting time even less. -.-

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Vasken » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:42 pm

I'm gonna disagree very heavily. The good tanks STILL wont get in because they'd rather be with friends than have a slim chance of getting something good that they can easily farm or already have. This will cause people who dont tank to que as tanks....moreso than they already do cause those that dps want those rewards.
Euh... They won't queue as tank after they realise that they need to actually complete the instance to reap the additional loot. Granted, at first, there may be a lot. Even so: how will these non-tanks get the reward if they're unable to finish the instance as their chosen role? And if the queues are effectively shortened, they won't NEED to queue-jump by signing up as tank! Heck, the instant queues alone provide enough reason to queue as tank right now. If you look on the other side of the coin, it might encourage queue hoppers to actually join as DPS due to their drastically shortened queue.

I also know that myself and a few others would be encouraged to sign up as tank after this feature is introduced. The additional gold should be able to fund a tank's hefty repair bill, at least!

I'm baffled as to how people are so against giving addtional (minor) rewards to those who are fufilling difficult roles and making DPS queues shorter. I could personally alt-tab youtube and DPS in heroics on my hunter. :(
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Comett » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:47 pm

Personally I'm very fond of the BOA idea :) Was there any reason it was skipped in the last page? (I read the first and the last only.)

I don't do full pugs on my druid tank, because I struggle with her (she's a tiny bit undergeared - mainly 346 blues, so "okay" but certainly not "great")... However when she has that extra gear, the chance of a BOA minipet or mount is going to prompt me to do a RH or two on her when I'm bored/doing nothing else. THat's pretty much the only time I'll benefit from the bag though, because 95% of the time I queue with guildies - at least one guildie - because at the moment, pugs are so risky, and with one or two guildies you can usually guarantee a completion, whether that is by burning it down with good DPS, working together, having a strong tank to cope with a bad healer or a strong healer to cope with a bad tank.

The biggest issue I can see is Joe Blow queuing on his ret Pally, quickly swapping to prot but without the required skills or gear to complete a dungeon, because he saw the "get shinies!" option. So perhaps more bad tanks will queue. But you know, at the moment, getting a good RH is like finding gold anyway.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Bodhran » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:56 pm

Vasken wrote: I also know that myself and a few others would be encouraged to sign up as tank after this feature is introduced. The additional gold should be able to fund a tank's hefty repair bill, at least!
I might be wrong but don't all players pay the say in repair bills now? Or are you saying it is higher due to them getting hit all the time?
Vasken wrote: I'm baffled as to how people are so against giving addtional (minor) rewards to those who are fufilling difficult roles and making DPS queues shorter. I could personally alt-tab youtube and DPS in heroics on my hunter. :(
"minor"? Most of the time yes but I'd not count a mount as minor at all. Though with the low drop rates...
LupisDarkmoon wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking that I don't like this. >.< Simply out of greed and jealousy, of course. I really would like a chance at those rare mounts
^ I will say again the looming green eyed monster in me is going to have a lil kiddie fit when I see the tank loot their Call To Arms bag and I see Tank received Reins of the Raven Lord in the chat window. petty I know but hey I'm human and like shines.



...yeah I'd like a lower que time but ehh w/e.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by MaximumOverdrive » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:59 pm

TygerDarkstorm wrote:
Players must queue solo with the currently indicated least represented class (by the system) and complete the dungeon up to and including the final boss in order to be eligible for the bonus reward.
This is interesting and also very vague. Does it mean completing every single boss in the dungeon or just every boss that's relevant to reaching the last boss?
I think it means you have to start and finish with the same group maybe? Well, the same instance anyways, maybe the dps gets changed out or something, but you need to start it from the beginning and kill the last boss in the same run...optional bosses are probably still optional.

I would like to agree with the whole BoA bags thing...my hunter is my collector...I have a DK tank, but I hardly play him, and even with these rewards, I probably still won't play him unless they become BoA.

I know they say go farm the instances the mounts drop in, but they never seem to mention that some come from heroics, and you can only do heroics once a day, where it said in the CtAs thing that there is no daily cap, so they can kinda keep farming for the mounts and pets several times a day. Now that's what bugs me the most.

I haven't done a solo heroic pug in a long time...I run strictly with guildies cause I hate random ass pugs...it's the whole box of chocolates thing! You don't know what yer gunna get! And it usually sucks.

As others have said as well...these rewards will make people who either, a) Don't like tanking, b) Don't know how to tank, or c) People who think they can tank but actually can't, que up for the rewards, and then suddenly the whole dungeon run goes to hell. Then you manage to kick the bad tank, but then you get another one! And you can't kick him, cause of the stupid kick timer and so yer screwed and wasted 30 min on a fail run and have to reque again and hope you get something better this time.

I never had a problem with the que times...mine are usually about 20 min, and I can go and do dailies during that time, or achy or some other prof.

This is really just a temp fix as well...for many tanks, there's really not much incentive to que solo for a bag of goodies...probably several already have the mounts/pets, or don't care about 'em. And once the tanks who do want those rewards gets 'em, what's gunna make 'em stick around?

This is a pretty bad gimp for the pure dps classes who will never have a chance at the bag unless its boa. I rolled my hunter several years ago, cause it looked fun. It's my main and nothing will replace him, but getting left out on the rewards kinda sucks. If they make the bags boa, I might be more likely to play my dk tank, and maybe even lvl a pally tank so I can send the stuff to my main. If not...I see no point in rolling a tank.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by TygerDarkstorm » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:38 am

Bodhran wrote: I also know that myself and a few others would be encouraged to sign up as tank after this feature is introduced. The additional gold should be able to fund a tank's hefty repair bill, at least!
All players armor costs the same amount of gold to repair (ie cloth is no longer the cheapest), however, because tanks get hit all of the time, their repair bills should still be higher than a healer or DPS's. That's how I see it anyway.

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Vasken » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:30 am

"minor"? Most of the time yes but I'd not count a mount as minor at all. Though with the low drop rates...
They are minor! :D

They've only listed the White Hawkstrider, Baron's Steed, Raven Lord and Atuttututmenementm's Horse so far... And each of those are easily, easily, easily farmable by each class. Heroic MgT, Sethekk and Kara mount runs generally take 10 minutes at most with a level 85 character. Tanking a heroic run can take anywhere from 25 minutes to three hours, with an additional mountain of absue, grief and (usually) awful puggies.

If they added "difficult" mounts inside the bag, such as the drakes from Stonecore and VP, Black War Mammoth, Brood of Onxyia or the seasonal ones, then it would be a little unfair to DPS classes. Right now it seems to be very easily farmable ground mounts. ;)

And tanks do generally have higher repair bills- at least from what I've experienced. My hunter usually has roughly 10g providing there's no wipes, and my tank often has a 40g+ repair bill. The mobs hurt!

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Unread post by Miraga » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:31 am

The mounts that drop from the bag are now BoA, according to MMO champ and the WoW website. Will need someone else to provide the link, as my phone = fail. I hope this makes more people willing to tank. The more I think about it, the more I realize it's easier to farm the low level mounts anyway, though it stinks that it won't be BoA.

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