Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

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Ziarre
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Re: the great BM nerf of 2012

Unread post by Ziarre »

Your first problem is relying on dummies alone. A dummy by itself is never adequate evidence, imo. There are far too many factors in raids that a dummy doesn't bring to the table.

Let's let the theorycrafters crunch their numbers and run their test before we decide the sky is falling? BM was king, MM was weak, this may have simply brought them more in line with each other.
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Re: the great BM nerf of 2012

Unread post by Maizou »

I see no nerf.

I see changes to a BETA build where things are not set in stone.

Thus, no "nerf" can actually occur.

I also see no buffs for the same reason. >_>

However, if these were live servers, the changes were a buff to BM and a buff to the high-end hunter talents, with a slight nerf to Marksman.
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Re: the great BM nerf of 2012

Unread post by Ziarre »

I consider them as buffs or nerfs in view of the bigger picture of hunter spec balance.

In live, any spec can do admirably for most raiding situations. Hardcore raiding, as always, is the exception because they have to cling to every scrap of damage they can get. If something disturbs that balance enough that one of the specs becomes sneered upon and viewed as the domain of levelers and fresh 90's (as has happened in the past), I might get a little bit upset. I'd like to think they learned from their mistake of nerfing BM to the ground in Wrath, though.
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Re: the great BM nerf of 2012

Unread post by Neilaren »

The only thing I'm mad about (since I subscribe to the whole "changes in BETA aren't nerfs/buffs" thing) is that GC said pretty early in in the beta feedback threads that the solution was NOT to nerf Beast Cleave but to buff the other two AoEs...

I need to find that post so I can stick it to GC and be like EXCUSE ME!?

Supposedly GC went on a business trip and left us "in good hands"? Yeah, uh...
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Re: the great BM nerf of 2012

Unread post by Slickrock »

Ziarre wrote:Your first problem is relying on dummies alone. A dummy by itself is never adequate evidence, imo. There are far too many factors in raids that a dummy doesn't bring to the table.

Let's let the theorycrafters crunch their numbers and run their test before we decide the sky is falling? BM was king, MM was weak, this may have simply brought them more in line with each other.
Understood, but without a handy Patchwerk style fight, the dummies are the only really shot you have other than sims, which are limited as well (my old fingers don't necessarily hit buttons as well as a sim does... in fact, I think there's too much reliance on sims, when they don't convey actual fights or playstyles).

But to your point about the theorycrafters.... results from Zeherah, sofar. (she hasn't done her full sims yet)
Aimed Shot: 20% buff
Arcane Shot: 58% buff
Barrage: 100% buff
Black Arrow: 88% buff
Bite/Claw/Smack: 5% buff (not 100% sure if this was buffed or if I just had measured the formula slightly off before)
Chimera Shot: 9% buff
Cobra Shot: 17% nerf
Explosive Shot: 6% buff
Glaive Toss: 100% buff
Kill Command: 90% buff
Powershot: 100% buff
Steady Shot: 22% buff
Based on MY testing, MM has clearly pulled ahead. The Cobra Shot nerf combined with the FF/Frenzy change seems to have brought BM down quite a bit. While test dummies aren't everything, if I'm doing the same test before and after with no other changes, that has some merit.

Side note: The massive restructuring of the formulas made some of the changes seem better or worse than they actually were. Aimed shot is a good example.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Sickhuntz56 »

Kill command damage was basically doubled.

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Re: the great BM nerf of 2012

Unread post by Kalliope »

Neilaren wrote:The only thing I'm mad about (since I subscribe to the whole "changes in BETA aren't nerfs/buffs" thing) is that GC said pretty early in in the beta feedback threads that the solution was NOT to nerf Beast Cleave but to buff the other two AoEs...

I need to find that post so I can stick it to GC and be like EXCUSE ME!?
Things may have changed between when he said that and when this build was designed. Perhaps all the AoEs were doing too much damage with the new combinations of talents.

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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

The other key thing will be reexamining buffs, given the increase of RAP in some of the formulas.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

One other note, I noticed that my existing gear had a bunch of reforging happen to it, so Blizz tweaked gear. That might have something to do with what happened with my testing... suddenly I had 7% expertise, which I didn't have before.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Maizou »

Wait wait wait.

You're complaining about a damage nerf... without being expertise capped?

For all you know, you or your pet is just missing more than the last time you checked.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Myzou wrote:Wait wait wait.

You're complaining about a damage nerf... without being expertise capped?

For all you know, you or your pet is just missing more than the last time you checked.
Testing against lvl 85 dummy, to eliminate that... :D
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Ziarre »

:| I...also kinda agree you should cap your hit/miss stats first.

I'm also seeing a large buff to both Kill Command and Arcane Shot, our two main focus-burners, so until we get some hard numbers back from the crunchers, I'm going to sit tight with my towel.
Acherontia wrote:

It's like daring someone to go insult a bunch of kindly old nuns. You'll wind up going back to your friends with a story about how they smiled at your insults and tried to give you cookies, or something.

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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Ziarre wrote::| I...also kinda agree you should cap your hit/miss stats first.

I'm also seeing a large buff to both Kill Command and Arcane Shot, our two main focus-burners, so until we get some hard numbers back from the crunchers, I'm going to sit tight with my towel.
well, against the 85 I AM capped... that was the point of using that dummy. The CoS nerf seems to be the big issue.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Turgus »

Kill Command now costs 40 focus, up from 37. Damaged changed to (1.8 * (997 + RAP) * 1.2) from (1.8 * (1,022 + 51.6% of RAP) * 1.1)

So that's an increase in damage by 129.96 damage + 113.82% of RAP for 3 focus points, or otherwise a huge increase in damage.

I agree that the change to Cobra Shot is big, especially since it will no longer be scaling with RAP, and may have an impact on BM DPS, however, due to the other big changes (75% more damage from arcane shots, GftT giving 50% more focus, etc) I will hold judgement until they are done balancing things and I suggest that you do the same.

My two cents.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Turgus wrote: I will hold judgement until they are done balancing things and I suggest that you do the same..
Well, thank you for the parental advice, but like I said, MY testing is showing a dps loss currently, and MM is coming out quite strong. Yes, they may well change more things, and likely will, but that's what my tests are showing now, which is the best info I have for my playstyle at the moment. I'll refrain from posting any test results or conclusions since they seem to upset people... :roll:
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Ziarre
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Ziarre »

We're not upset, we're urging caution instead of 'sky is falling' panic. :| People are doing the exact same thing at the Affliction 'nerf' (see: OP glyph fix), and GC had some choice words to say about that.
Acherontia wrote:

It's like daring someone to go insult a bunch of kindly old nuns. You'll wind up going back to your friends with a story about how they smiled at your insults and tried to give you cookies, or something.

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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Ziarre wrote:We're not upset, we're urging caution instead of 'sky is falling' panic. :| People are doing the exact same thing at the Affliction 'nerf' (see: OP glyph fix), and GC had some choice words to say about that.
As a side note on the testing... the numbers that I'm seeing are for a lvl 86 character, with a 403 ilvl. Z's spreadsheet is showing BM ahead at 90 (by about the same margin I'm seeing MM ahead at 86), but the scaling is so immense (about a x2.75 damage increase) that it's really a different world.

If Z's numbers for a 90 are indeed correct, I can only imagine what old work stuff we'll be able to solo then...
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Ziarre
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Ziarre »

Wait, back up a second. You saying you're not testing at level cap, or am I reading you wrong?

As for the second question...all the things. :ugeek:
Acherontia wrote:

It's like daring someone to go insult a bunch of kindly old nuns. You'll wind up going back to your friends with a story about how they smiled at your insults and tried to give you cookies, or something.

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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Ziarre wrote:Wait, back up a second. You saying you're not testing at level cap, or am I reading you wrong?
Yep, it's perfectly valid to test to see what the impact of the numerous changes are for a fresh 85 going into the xpac. As it is, for walking into Panda, MM is a sizeable advantage (right now), and that's what I wanted to find out.

And I'll also add that testing with current gear will also be valid for the 2-4 weeks we have of patch 5.0.x before the xpac, for those still working on DS.

(and as to my original post, Z said herself that the spell formula changes made the buffs and nerfs both look bigger than most really were. So yeah, my original post was somewhat of an overreaction).

Z's spreadsheet will be fine for testing at cap, with all the right gear. And really, the first 4 weeks of the xpac are really beta as well, Blizz can easily do more tweaking.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Ziarre »

Eh...balance is always a fluid thing throughout the leveling curve. I don't expect balance until cap, as long as I can level with the tree I like.
Acherontia wrote:

It's like daring someone to go insult a bunch of kindly old nuns. You'll wind up going back to your friends with a story about how they smiled at your insults and tried to give you cookies, or something.

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