Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Slickrock
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Ziarre wrote:Eh...balance is always a fluid thing throughout the leveling curve. I don't expect balance until cap, as long as I can level with the tree I like.
yeah, especially if you are leveling via mining... :ugeek:

however, as mentioned I might be doing DS up until the end, so knowing what the changes might be do help.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Sectumsempra »

I'm not an expert on how to attain the highest dps between specs but I know that MM seems to always be better than BM so it's kinda the same? One thing that's AWESOME for BM now is that we can get more CC than before because I can use Wyvern Sting and have my Freezing Traps. So, we're definitely able to control more and sometimes that's just as handy. I was really happy about this change to the skills because I really loved being SV because of the CC I could use but it sucked because I couldn't get the spirit beasts so naturally I switched since like you all rares are my fave thing.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

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An update....

Big Z of EJ fame found a potential bug with our pets and the 80% damage buff. Apparently, you pet can miss that buff. The fix is to respec your pet to Tenacity or Cunning, and then back to Ferocity.

Once I did that, I got a very solid dps increase.

After testing all that... MM is still ahead of BM in my gear/rotation/blah/blah, but is much closer than before
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Ziarre
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Ziarre »

Oh, I'll probably be doing DS up to launch too--at least on the weeks I remember to sign up in time. :P

Actually, I remember BM being really frakkin' powerful during BC due to that shot macro (that I hated using, it felt like cheating but the shot clipping bug made it neccessary). Then it was nerfed hard in Wrath, and then all three specs were brought within reach of each other during Cataclysm. There'll always be a 'leader,' but the gap between the three trees is relatively small at the moment.

Speaking of bugs, good to know! See, all kinds of things can affect the numbers.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Tyrith »

BM is still plenty potent on beta. Beast Cleave was nerfed because GC said several weeks ago that BM AOE was 'fine, probably too good' which, in all honesty it was. While the damage is much lower now, understand that the pet spams attacks for the duration, you easily get 3-4 Cleaves per multishot.

Kill Command and overall pet damage, on the other hand, were buffed.

I've never been more excited to play my hunter. I've already informed my guild that they need another full time tank for Mists because Tyrith (aforementioned hunter) is getting the spotlight this time. :)
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Neilaren »

My only issue with the new Beast Cleave is that the damage has apparently been lowered to the point where I really can't use it to have my pet "keep" aggro on several mobs, since the cleaves don't generate more threat than my multi-shot does anymore.
I mean, it's a really good thing they fixed MD and I can apply it to pets once again, is all I'm saying. 8)

But even then, maybe they can stand to raise it back up again, a little? Just a little?
I haven't really put my addons in the beta (can you do that now?) for damage meters so I really can't tell how my aoe is in dungeons and whatever. I ran a dungeon yesterday and no one yelled at me for doing no damage, so I'd like to think I was fine. :)

I do have tiffs, also, with the solution to "buff BM daage" being "buff pet damage", because, wasn't it pointed out partway through Cataclysm that we really need more sources of damage than the pet? We clamoured for having a real signature "shot" and we still basically just have Kill Command. Granted, Kill Command is a lot better in beta than it currently is in live, but it's still completely pet-reliant. I love having that for fights where player damage has drawbacks (I'm mostly thinking when we go to Black Temple and fight Reliquary of Souls; Desire has the mechanic where all damage is reflected back to you and it's really easy to just heal my pet while it does 90% of the work and I can focus more on dispelling the aura it gets)...

Once the pet dies, though...

Certainly, other pet specs (demo locks, unholy dks..?) have other toys besides their pets. We almost literally have just the pets. And there's really so much you can do with something that's completely reliant on AI and that still has that issue where it needs a few seconds to scale its stats with your gear...
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Turgus »

Neilaren wrote:My only issue with the new Beast Cleave is that the damage has apparently been lowered to the point where I really can't use it to have my pet "keep" aggro on several mobs, since the cleaves don't generate more threat than my multi-shot does anymore.
I mean, it's a really good thing they fixed MD and I can apply it to pets once again, is all I'm saying. 8)
As you posted above the extra damage was only necessary to keep aggro because Misdirect was not functioning.
Now that it is fixed I think that it is completely fair lowering the damage the pet does since they are working less on implementing new attacks and mechanics and more on balancing the numbers.
Neilaren wrote:I haven't really put my addons in the beta (can you do that now?) for damage meters so I really can't tell how my aoe is in dungeons and whatever. I ran a dungeon yesterday and no one yelled at me for doing no damage, so I'd like to think I was fine. :)
I suggest that this is your first task before complaining about the damage that your pet is doing in a dungeon.
Especially when you can compare it against another class, like warlock, AoEing pack mobs.
From what I have seen (datum wise) Beast Cleave was in need of a nerf and although the nerf was pretty substantial and may be a a bit overboard I have not seen the datum to support this as of yet.
Not that this information might not be out there, I just have not seen it yet.
Not that you can't voice your opinion without looking at the numbers, its just that it is difficult for people like me to take it seriously.
Neilaren wrote:I do have tiffs, also, with the solution to "buff BM daage" being "buff pet damage", because, wasn't it pointed out partway through Cataclysm that we really need more sources of damage than the pet? We clamoured for having a real signature "shot" and we still basically just have Kill Command. Granted, Kill Command is a lot better in beta than it currently is in live, but it's still completely pet-reliant. I love having that for fights where player damage has drawbacks (I'm mostly thinking when we go to Black Temple and fight Reliquary of Souls; Desire has the mechanic where all damage is reflected back to you and it's really easy to just heal my pet while it does 90% of the work and I can focus more on dispelling the aura it gets)...
That is why they made the range change to Kill Command and it has really come into its own as a solid attack in my opinion.
Do not forget that as a pet based attack it has unique utility that other major attacks do not have.
Primarily that you can use it when your hunter is out of range or out of line of sight.
This utility must have a down side, being tied to the pet is perfect for this.
As for keeping your pet up, mend pet and other abilities (Exhilaration and Spirit Bond), make this much easier than it used to be.
Neilaren wrote:Certainly, other pet specs (demo locks, unholy dks..?) have other toys besides their pets. We almost literally have just the pets. And there's really so much you can do with something that's completely reliant on AI and that still has that issue where it needs a few seconds to scale its stats with your gear...
Yes, as Beast Mastery our damage is heavily tied to our pet, as it should be. However a great deal of our attacks are that, ours. Arcane Shot, Multishot, Cobra Shot, Serpent Sting, Kill Shot, not to mention our traps, and special shots like Distracting Shot, Scatter Shot, and Tranquilizing Shot are all attacks that we contribute to the fight.

It also seems to me that you discount your own argument for increased pet damage by your statements about pet reliance.
On one hand you want Hunter Pets to do more damage with Beast Cleave, but then you turn around and argue that Beast Master Hunters should be less reliant on their pets.
No offense, but which is it?

To me things are working out pretty well, there could be some tweaking here and there, and I expect that Blizzard is working on that stuff. But I am quite satisfied with the balance that Blizzard has worked out between Beast Master Hunters and their pets.

Of course I could be completely wrong on all of my opinion in this post and I am completely open to being wrong.


Just my 2 cents.
Slickrock
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Turgus wrote:To me things are working out pretty well, there could be some tweaking here and there, and I expect that Blizzard is working on that stuff. But I am quite satisfied with the balance that Blizzard has worked out between Beast Master Hunters and their pets.
I don't think that's the real issue... the question is, will we be forced into MM or SV for AOE situations? If that's the case, Blizz has failed. With how much Cleave was neutered, we'll certainly be lower than the other specs.

But yes, more testing is needed... but testing AOE is indeed a pain.
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Neilaren »

...Can I just clarify some things? Aside from clarifying that I'm really not trying to start debates or arguments and I'd prefer not to.

1) It was developers (GC or some other blue) who first mentioned the issue of pet reliance sometime in Cataclysm. That didn't come straight from my mouth. I just distinctly remember a blue post that was something like "Well, we can just buff BM by buffing mastery or whatever, but putting too much damage on the pet might be a bad thing". When I comment on that, it's just how I find it interesting when I recall that such things were said, but it's not really the route they're taking. Kind of like how I earlier recalled GC's original view on Beast Cleave vs. the direction it's being taken now. But as also pointed out by others, the developers are always changing their mind about things. It's just extremely confusing when they do.
2) I never complained about the actual damage of any abilities. I can't even see the damage numbers in default UI the way they pop up, and I'm just going to wait until I have my addons in Live or until the theorycrafters work out those things.
A lot of my pet aggro issues in beta currently also have plenty to do with server lag. It just seemed so much easier to quest with a beefed up Beast Cleave the last time I logged onto beta, almost months ago, and I simply miss that. :P Can't I be allowed to miss OP things in a beta?
3) All of our shots are shared across all specs. I was thinking more spec-specific attacks like how a demo lock can just turn into a demon, or use spells like Hand of Gul'dan (if that's still demo only in beta, haven't checked).

Anyway, I'm not posting further on this, since I've basically vented what minor frustrations I've had in beta already and that's all I posted in here for. :)
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Ziarre »

Noting that Wild Quiver was changed back, or at least that's what I got from the blue post on Marksman and mastery. The change would have given MM a hard cap of mastery to shoot for, apparently.
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Slickrock
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Slickrock »

Yep, that change isn't on beta yet, I think..
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Re: Hunter buffs and nerfs, BM goes down, MM goes up

Unread post by Turgus »

Slickrock wrote:
Turgus wrote:To me things are working out pretty well, there could be some tweaking here and there, and I expect that Blizzard is working on that stuff. But I am quite satisfied with the balance that Blizzard has worked out between Beast Master Hunters and their pets.
I don't think that's the real issue... the question is, will we be forced into MM or SV for AOE situations? If that's the case, Blizz has failed. With how much Cleave was neutered, we'll certainly be lower than the other specs.

But yes, more testing is needed... but testing AOE is indeed a pain.
I understand that the nerf was substantial, but from what I have seen (datum wise) it was in real need of it. BM was way ahead of the others in AoE damage.

Was the nerf too much? Very possible, and maybe even likely.

However I have not seen that datum to back up the claims being made that it was.
I am on the lookout for this information and can't wait to see it.
Either to confirm or refute the claims being made.

One should withhold judgement until the facts come out in every case including this one.



My 2 cents.
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