More hunter nerfs coming... sigh...

[Slickrock]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2313 ... ter-nerfs/

Never will understand hunters begging for nerfs.

[SpiritBinder]

What would you prefer?

Settle the imbalances now, while in Beta... Or wait til it goes live? Then everyone Playing the LIVE MOP will get upset (hunters and fellow classes alike), and then hunters with have to ride the balancing train, while playing/raiding, etc.

If you read the post you linked, his guild is ranked #6 in the US, so his fellow raiders, as he put it, are not "a bunch of idiots"

And if had a look at the logs, every single one of them, he was out in front by about 20k (in fact 30k in one of them)

Sure this sounds fun, but it's just not good game play.

Also, he's not "begging" for nerfs, he's begging for balance...

So I say this will all due respect for the people who have had their hands in revamping the class: do not gut us. Do not give us the affliction warlock treatment. I don't want to have to experience the torment that was playing a hunter during Dragon Soul progression ever again

[Slickrock]

What would you prefer?

Settle the imbalances now, while in Beta... Or wait til it goes live? Then everyone Playing the LIVE MOP will get upset (hunters and fellow classes alike), and then hunters with have to ride the balancing train, while playing/raiding, etc.

Balance, yes... but Blizz balance is a nasty ride. Considering how strongly they buffed some of the shots, we'll see similar strong swings in the other direction (40-50% reductions, just like the buffs were going the other way).

I would also prefer that they fix some of the other things first, like FF/Frenzy, and then adjust dps.

And considering how low some specs have been for such a long time throughout Cata, I fear being on the low end when things go live. Buffs are slow to come when that happens.

[Makoes]

Actually, that guy is doing the Right thing as a BETA tester. Its not just about reporting the "bad" stuff or "bugs" but also reporting imbalances, whether they gimp your class or favoure it.

And since Ghostcrawler was the blueposter to answer this one, I think it will be handled well. GC also said that several classes will be seeing some work done to balance them more.

A nerf is not a nerf until it happens on live, BETA is full of changes and its our job as beta testers to report the effects of those changes.

[swimgremlin]

The problem with balancing issues is that some classes play exceptionally well in the hands of certin players but rather meh in the hands I've an average player.

Remember kitty Druids in wrath? Average kitty did below average dps, however perfectly timed buff/bleed duration paired with excellent execution led to an Omgwtfhaxzor moments by maybe 25% of those who played them.

Then you look at 3 button arcane mages who have been in the top dps margin since then that anyone can play. Balancing should not be around the few who can actually pull off he mechanics to hit large numbers, but rather from the majority player base imo.

[SpiritBinder]

Balance, yes... but Blizz balance is a nasty ride. Considering how strongly they buffed some of the shots, we'll see similar strong swings in the other direction (40-50% reductions, just like the buffs were going the other way).

I would also prefer that they fix some of the other things first, like FF/Frenzy, and then adjust dps.

And considering how low some specs have been for such a long time throughout Cata, I fear being on the low end when things go live. Buffs are slow to come when that happens.

Correct, balance, that's all this hunter was asking for, not nerfs. I know the ups and downs the class has gone through this beta have been wide and varied, but again I would rather all these strong swings be now, rather than later. Sure, we will still have a gambit of adjustments from patch to patch when MOP goes live, but if they can sort out as many as they can now, it would be so much more preferable.

And sure, there are other things that are still a little out, like FF/Frenzy like you mentioned, and I certainly hope they find a better balance for that because atm, with a lot of people doing a lot of testing, using FF atm is a DPS lost under just about every circumstance.

I don't mind how crazy the adjustments are during beta, whether up or down, that's what is for. Just as long as they are aware of were we are and what we will need once we go live.

[SpiritBinder]

The problem with balancing issues is that some classes play exceptionally well in the hands of certin players but rather meh in the hands I've an average player.

This is a really tricky one. Blizzard has mentioned numerous times before, that they don't mind if skilled players are able to squeeze a bit more out of their performance. This however, is even more tricky to balance.

They are aware of it though, and even more so for MOP. I know that they mentioned, and what they are doing with the implementation of the new talent system was to help minimize this gap between the two. the example they used was a rogue, and instead of having some of the applied buff (poisons I thing it was referring too) become a passive application. Meaning it became a lot more forgiving to those who struggled with it's precise application and helped bridge the gap between the exception and average players.

I too believe that this is something that needs to be addressed, but there still needs to be some kind of reward for those whom master their class to the nth degree. Whether that be by higher dps/hps/threat/etc, that's something I think is ok, as long as the gap is not to ludicrous.

[swimgremlin]

Exactly. Take warlocks on live for example. The difference between being an average warlock and an exceptional one is very minimal when it comes to numbers, and theres a lot to watch for! If mastering your class combined with the familiarity of fights yield a high outcome, I'm totally ok with it.

[Ziarre]

I'm glad that we have beta testers with the honesty to go 'wait, I feel too high' as well as 'um, what the heck, I'm too low.' Especially when it's backed up by logs!

On an unrelated note, I am inordinately amused by the thought of GC making a Ned Stark meme.

[Kurasu]

I'm going to be honest: I want to meet this guy... and marry him. Someone who is honest enough to put up his hand, say 'There is imbalance here', and visibly back it up? When it's *his* class that's the one overly high? He's a keeper!

Jokes aside, I'm with the people here who are praising the guy for his honesty. Beta is beta. Better that numbers be balanced out now than later. Things will still have to be balanced later as *well*, but it hurts far, far less when it's done now, as things are being put into live, than it does *after* people have gotten used to the numbers in 'real world' raids and such. It's true, I don't like nerfs any more than other people do, but I want to see things more balanced. I don't want to hear the words 'Reroll or GTFO'. And if you don't think those exist, I refer you to people's complaint about 'hunters in such-and-such expansion'. We all know that it's happened. You wanted to raid in BC? Beastmaster or nothing (except for one person who was a Survival).

It's also nice to have someone who is articulate about the issue, *with* logs. Rather than just saying 'WE'RE TOO LOW' or 'SUCH-AND-SUCH IS TOO HIGH', they can hold the numbers up, let Blizzard look at it, and Blizzard can actually *fix* problems rather than making their own fumbling decisions until they find a 'nice balance'. One and done, basically.

[Slickrock]

The problem with balancing issues is that some classes play exceptionally well in the hands of certin players but rather meh in the hands I've an average player.

This is a really tricky one. Blizzard has mentioned numerous times before, that they don't mind if skilled players are able to squeeze a bit more out of their performance. This however, is even more tricky to balance.

I too believe that this is something that needs to be addressed, but there still needs to be some kind of reward for those whom master their class to the nth degree. Whether that be by higher dps/hps/threat/etc, that's something I think is ok, as long as the gap is not to ludicrous.

The size of that gap is key. I'll agree there should be some reward, but at the same time, you can easily drive people away from a class, or get a class excluded because "BM sucks" since a large percentage of the players can't maximize the class. So, it's not just the gap, but how steep the skill curve is that creates that gap. If the top 2% are the only ones that can get the top 25% of performance, that's a big problem.

There's another problem though, scaling.

I didn't look at what gear that guy was using, but there's also been a problem if all the balancing is built around H T14 sets, there can be massive underperformance based on the impact of the changes they make. This has happened before, and is one concern when all the people begging for hunter nerfs are quoting Zeherah's spreadsheet, when we don't even know if it's accurate yet. Nerfing based on theoretical spreadsheets and optimized gearsets can really impact us later on when we don't have that gear, and the spreadsheet doesn't reveal that there are clunky mechanics that don't live up to those numbers in actual gameplay. (Note: I love Z's spreadsheet, I just don't think we should be spouting those numbers off as a basis for asking for nerfs). Right now, the spreadsheet doesn't show the funky mess that FF/Frenzy is.

Short version: Having lived through the great BM nerf, and having had been a doorstop for years as a result, any nerfs are a touchy subject, and I'd rather see balancing based on actual average gameplay, not only top guilds fully decked out.

[SpiritBinder]

Again, one last time, this guy did not ask for a N E R F, he asked for them to be gentle with the balancing if/when they do so, as he could see/show how high the class was performing...
in the B E T A

I'm not sure why you brought Z's spread sheet into this, but again, her spreadsheet is based on data, that is from the beta, that is changing... all the time.

By all means show concern due to you having had been a doorstop for years, but many of our abilities now scale HM, AotH, etc.. our scaling issues will be minimal compared to previously. And how do you know scaling will be a problem? where is your evidence, in what areas will the problems be?

Short Version: Show me your data, please back up your reasoning with something more concrete, or this thread is moot.

[Albain]

I admit I get frustrated and upset with people who freak out at the beta testers who say we need to be re-tuned a little lower. I did this early on, when hunter self healing was staggeringly ridiculous and we could bring three of the eight buffs ourselves, each hunter. I reported it because I was functionally immortal and could bring three buffs myself. I could roll into Dragon Soul solo and the only thing that would get me killed is mechanics, not the damage done. I got screamed at for 'asking Blizzard to gut hunters'.

No. I want us to be a more balanced class, and I want it to be done in beta, NOT on live, where the nerfing will actually hurt. I might have loved the old form of beast cleave for BM, but it hit harder than I did, and it got reported. It got nerfed. It feels more 'right' now, more in line with what the rest can do in AOE situations.

It might be fun to be OP or broken, but the legit nerf that rolls along to put you back in your place hurts a hell of a lot more when it's out of beta. Right now, the tuning down is needed. I'd say the same for ANY class that can outstrip the rest of their raid by so much, be it hunter, lock, paladin, or toy poodles.

[Neilaren]

I might have loved the old form of beast cleave for BM, but it hit harder than I did, and it got reported. It got nerfed. It feels more 'right' now, more in line with what the rest can do in AOE situations.

A lot of people out there still feel it could be re-tuned to do a bit more damage (I wouldn't mind it either), but aside from that... I gotta say, I was in my quest greens at 90, and then found the pvp vendor and put on that free conquest gear; stuff melts now. It's scary. I can't really gauge that compared to how I may have felt in full t11 at the beginning of Cataclysm, since in Live I've been in T13 for months now and everything melts anyway... but it doesn't feel right on beta, at least.

[Sasrei]

So lets just change it to not really wanting a nerf but more of a balance. But I do agree that I hope blizzard doesnt go to far and over nerf us like what happened before. Sure if you have high end gear with the best enchants/gems, have religously learned your class you can expect big numbers but I hope that doesnt mean for those hunters who are still working on gear and what not will be put sub pack in the dps meters again. But I guess we will have to wait and see.. im just hoping that more and more metres come out for a true test on all types of players.

[Ziarre]

*nods at Albain* Exactly so. I lived through the BM nerf in Wrath, too--a nerf to uselessness is not what I'm hoping for. Balance, and honesty in reporting a lack of it? That's what I'm hoping for. No matter the class or spec...especially if it's my own. Being OP in live would simply risk more 'vigorous' balancing and bring a true nerf.

[swimgremlin]

Whatever the case, I just want BM to be a viable raiding spec. Every raid I've gotten into as BM I have to essentially hear criticism, beat several dps to "prove myself", then hear about how much better I'd be as survival. It'd be nice to join a raid and not have people question and/or criticize my spec choice.

I don't know what the BETA numbers look like since I can't load it for more then 5min w/o being booted, but as long as you guys say we're ok, I'll take your word.

[Ziarre]

A lot of that is lingering stigma from Wrath. BM's been in good shape for Cataclysm.

[Gimlion]

A lot of that is lingering stigma from Wrath. BM's been in good shape for Cataclysm.

This. Not to mention, people telling you to go SV aren't any wiser... MM has been the "front-runner" of Cata, even if just barely.

[Ardawen]

wait free pvp gear, why didn't anyone told me that.