Losing the love of BM?...

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Kalliope » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:48 pm

Nod, I know. It's just a little annoying that the question of "what are people playing as?" tends to refer to PvE when there's a definite trend in PvP as well. :)

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Lisaara » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:59 pm

Sesamee wrote:Fewer top raiders played BM in DS because it was inferior. Mechanics are a huge part of how a spec performs. A BM hunter out performing MM or esp SV in DS means the MM and SV hunters were bad. It's that simple.
Inferior unless you know what you were doing.

Example? Blackhorn. Pets can't reach the drakes. Alright. So stick them on the melee adds instead. Kill Command is a go.

Mind you I speak before 5.0.4.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Sesamee » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:43 pm

BM's potential max dps was lower than SV's whether you knew what you were doing or not.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Ziarre » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:33 pm

It's been warned that parses are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. There's no indication that those BM parses are from hunters that knew what they were doing, or were doing more than goofing around with an offspec for a fight.
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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Lisaara » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:39 am

Ziarre wrote:It's been warned that parses are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. There's no indication that those BM parses are from hunters that knew what they were doing, or were doing more than goofing around with an offspec for a fight.
Thank you, yes. This is what I was getting at. :3

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Nachtwulf » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:20 am

While I've often held to that mentality because I do love BM, to be unfortunately honest, I -am- a BM hunter that knows what they were doing, and in almost every fight in DS, Surv would outperform it. Yes, I could about match my numbers, but it took a lot more work in BM, whereas SV could be kind of sloppy and stay competitive, and there were some fights where BM just fell flat, like Spine and, yes, Blackhorn.

5.0 however seems to have fixed this. I ran some HoT heroics for practice and after a few bad starts (readiness? WUT DO!!?!) ended up burning the doors off people (my gear's not amazing on Greenbriar so some raidmaxed people still beat me. Oh well.). At the moment, I feel much more secure in the competitiveness of BM as a PvE spec in Mists, as I'm able to keep up with (and on some fights, greatly surpass) the performance of other pure-dps classes without feeling like I have to be on a 100% perfect game.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by MaximumOverdrive » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:30 am

Nachtwulf wrote:While I've often held to that mentality because I do love BM, to be unfortunately honest, I -am- a BM hunter that knows what they were doing, and in almost every fight in DS, Surv would outperform it. Yes, I could about match my numbers, but it took a lot more work in BM, whereas SV could be kind of sloppy and stay competitive, and there were some fights where BM just fell flat, like Spine and, yes, Blackhorn.

5.0 however seems to have fixed this. I ran some HoT heroics for practice and after a few bad starts (readiness? WUT DO!!?!) ended up burning the doors off people (my gear's not amazing on Greenbriar so some raidmaxed people still beat me. Oh well.). At the moment, I feel much more secure in the competitiveness of BM as a PvE spec in Mists, as I'm able to keep up with (and on some fights, greatly surpass) the performance of other pure-dps classes without feeling like I have to be on a 100% perfect game.
This is close to my thoughts as well. A lot of people consider me the best BM hunter on my server, but in DS, there were several fights that just aren't BM friendly and I lost a lot of dps in various cases. My Surv out-did my BM spec the majority of the time, and I don't even like Surv that much. Madness as well wasn't very nice, as often my pet got stuck somewhere and I had to recall it to my side to get it going again. Tho this is obviously a bug more than anything. Later, when I got better gear, and the debuff went up high enough, my fellow raiders didn't care if I went BM into most of the fights at that point (minus Blackhorn and Spine).

So far, I am liking all the changes to BM, tho I haven't tried in DS with it since our raid mostly stopped for now (and I really don't like going into RF). Here's hoping BM will be raid viable more often now (my raid leader is hoping I can raid as BM as well, as he's liking the changes too).
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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Akycha » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:32 am

Well if nothing else, I won't have to deal with random idjits in LFD telling me I should switch specs. :P

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Lisaara » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:39 am

Trust me, BM has definitely improved.

However, even before, it doesn't make it an unviable spec. My raid leader was always pulling 30 - 40k dps and often number one on the charts in heroic DS and she's decked out. Sure, some fights aren't BM friendly(we haven't had that issue with Madness.) but you can manage them if you manage your pet well enough(put it on passive and direct your pet as necessary. It helps in fights like Madness and Gunship.)

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Meggers » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:03 pm

We aren't saying its in the shits (or at least I'm not) my whole point is no matter what if a spec proves to be better for someone to use, they should use it without getting shit on for being FOTM.

IDC if they're "forced to" or choose to, if they can/do perform better that way then so be it.
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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Ziarre » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:24 pm

If it helps, I was second or third DPS in my guild's Dragon Soul last night for most of the raid. Legendary-dagger rogue kept a firm lead, though. I've been out of action for nearly a month thanks to my wrist, so I feel I could have done better than I did! I've just got to get used to having Readiness, but I was keeping up on Dire Beast pretty well.

I'll also note this was the guild's first run since the patch, so most of us were a little out of sorts with getting accustomed to new talents.
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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Sesamee » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:57 pm

No one said BM hasn't improved in 5.0! Of course it has and I'm glad. My point all along has been that there can be in fact a "best spec". You don't only go by parses, you go by those as well actual raid experience. This game is based on math and because of that there is a highest potential dps that any spec can reach. This is based on damage coefficients and fight mechanics. Some specs out perform others whether a player is playing that spec to it's max potential or not. Such was the case for BM vs SV in DS and MM vs the other two in FL. There was a best spec and the good players, the ones who could play either spec to its potential, picked the top performing spec.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Magli » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:05 pm

I've played many specs during my time in WoW--BM during BC, switching to Marks in Wrath, then to SV in Cata. I switched from SV to BM half way through Firelands--our raid team lost its regular mage and ret paly, and we needed somebody to bring heroism and the 3% damage buff--and I've continued with it as my main spec through the end of Cata. With a little work I was able to put out good damage numbers and find workarounds for the fights (like Gunship) that were not BM-friendly. In general, I'm happy playing any hunter spec as long as it involves shooting at stuff with a gun.

And that's why I'm not connecting with BM so far in 5.0.4--it's feeling like too many of the buttons I press are telling my pet to do things and not enough are having my character shooting stuff. Here's what happens when I start a fight:

Send the pet in/Hunters Mark
Serpent sting (which starts autoshots)
Bestial Wrath
Kill Command
Lynx Rush
Dire Beast
Rapid Fire
Readiness
Kill Command
Dire Beast
Lynx Rush
...before I shoot my first Arcane Shot.

BM's starting to feel more more like a pet class (who also shoots things) than like a ranged DPS class (who also has a pet). Don't get me wrong, more differentiation between how the specs play is a good thing--but the flip side is that right now BM might not be a spec that I want to play.

(Luckily, SV's still as fun as ever. I get to shoot stuff and set it on fire? Sign me up!)

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by GormanGhaste » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:43 pm

Magli wrote:BM is feeling like too many of the buttons I press are telling my pet to do things and not enough are having my character shooting stuff. It's starting to feel more more like a pet class (who also shoots things) than like a ranged DPS class (who also has a pet). Don't get me wrong, more differentiation between how the specs play is a good thing--but the flip side is that right now BM might not be a spec that I want to play.
Yes, I think it's good for hunter specs to have different play styles. For me, BM has always been about pet game mechanics. I was more excited about BM hunters getting extra pet talent points than spirit beasts and other exotics. Obviously, I'm a fan of the new pet abilities.
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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Lisaara » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 pm

Sesamee wrote:No one said BM hasn't improved in 5.0! Of course it has and I'm glad. My point all along has been that there can be in fact a "best spec". You don't only go by parses, you go by those as well actual raid experience. This game is based on math and because of that there is a highest potential dps that any spec can reach. This is based on damage coefficients and fight mechanics. Some specs out perform others whether a player is playing that spec to it's max potential or not. Such was the case for BM vs SV in DS and MM vs the other two in FL. There was a best spec and the good players, the ones who could play either spec to its potential, picked the top performing spec.
I know and understand. I appreciate those who actually look at all that and do their own judgement, as well as take into account what they're best at.

However, my point was that majority don't really do that sort of analyzing. Most just go to a site and see a site says "This is best spec guaranteed!" and they usually just took it without really doing the math. They just assume the site is correct, which more often than not, the site isn't 100% accurate.

And to me, best spec is whatever you are best as playing at, not just cause some site says so. I've tried doing the best spec thing. I tried playing MM and SV but I was god awful at it that my dps dropped like a rock. Those who can pull out the DPS that SV and MM are capable of? That's amazing. But most I've come across, they can't. I beat them by a mile as BM and that was before the patch.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Akycha » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:43 pm

Magli wrote:I've played many specs during my time in WoW--BM during BC, switching to Marks in Wrath, then to SV in Cata. I switched from SV to BM half way through Firelands--our raid team lost its regular mage and ret paly, and we needed somebody to bring heroism and the 3% damage buff--and I've continued with it as my main spec through the end of Cata. With a little work I was able to put out good damage numbers and find workarounds for the fights (like Gunship) that were not BM-friendly. In general, I'm happy playing any hunter spec as long as it involves shooting at stuff with a gun.

And that's why I'm not connecting with BM so far in 5.0.4--it's feeling like too many of the buttons I press are telling my pet to do things and not enough are having my character shooting stuff. Here's what happens when I start a fight:

Send the pet in/Hunters Mark
Serpent sting (which starts autoshots)
Bestial Wrath
Kill Command
Lynx Rush
Dire Beast
Rapid Fire
Readiness
Kill Command
Dire Beast
Lynx Rush
...before I shoot my first Arcane Shot.

BM's starting to feel more more like a pet class (who also shoots things) than like a ranged DPS class (who also has a pet). Don't get me wrong, more differentiation between how the specs play is a good thing--but the flip side is that right now BM might not be a spec that I want to play.

(Luckily, SV's still as fun as ever. I get to shoot stuff and set it on fire? Sign me up!)

Aren't you wasting focus using dire beast on top of bestial wrath right from the start? I normally wait until I've drained enough focus before I use it. Otherwise I top out and that's just wasted focus. I also tend to wait on rapid fire till after Bestial Wrath is over due to the same issue. This isn't a criticism this is just me wondering why you are choosing to do it that way to see if perhaps I need to think of it differently.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Sesamee » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:51 pm

You blow all your CDs at the start so you can refresh them with Readiness. Once they're refreshed then you (or at least I do) use them according to their priority.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Akycha » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:55 pm

Sesamee wrote:You blow all your CDs at the start so you can refresh them with Readiness. Once they're refreshed then you (or at least I do) use them according to their priority.
I do blow them all at the start but not on top of each other. It just seems to me you are wasting the cool downs if you aren't using them to their full potential I'm going to have to hit a dummy and compare the two see how it works out. Someone else probably has already done this somewhere, but I'll let ya'll know how it turns out for me.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Gimlion » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:05 pm

Akycha wrote:
Sesamee wrote:You blow all your CDs at the start so you can refresh them with Readiness. Once they're refreshed then you (or at least I do) use them according to their priority.
I do blow them all at the start but not on top of each other. It just seems to me you are wasting the cool downs if you aren't using them to their full potential I'm going to have to hit a dummy and compare the two see how it works out. Someone else probably has already done this somewhere, but I'll let ya'll know how it turns out for me.
I'm not sure about now, especially with the new abilities, but, before the patch I know it was a loss to use Rapid fire alongside BW b/c you would hit cap focus too quickly and not be able to use it fast enough.

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Re: Losing the love of BM?...

Unread post by Magli » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:08 pm

Yeah, what Sesamee said. You might as well blow everything at the top because you're getting all your cooldowns reset once you hit Readiness; then you go back to the regular priority list.

That being said...you're probably right that I could slot in an arcane shot or two and then another kill command before the rapid fire/readiness reset. I'll play with it some more tonight.

edit: about overlapping RF and BW: I agree that in general it's not a good idea, but now that we get readiness I think it makes sense to use it on the pull. As long as we're firing our most damaging shots, does it matter that our focus is capped? If nothing else, our pet attacks and auto shots still benefit from haste, and thanks to readiness, we still have another use of RF to use once our (back-to-back) BW phase is through.

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