Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

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cowmuflage
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#21 Unread post by cowmuflage » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:50 am

Spiritbinder wrote:
Novikova wrote:He's like C'thun riding on the back of Galleon while the Sha holds up a boombox. There's not much chance of a non-heroic raid group getting this guy down, period. Easily griefed is just sprinkles on the pain cupcake.
I like them odds.... ;)

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I'd of thought the Sha of anger would be into something more heavy like death metal but that's funner :lol:

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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#22 Unread post by SpiritBinder » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:54 am

Hahaha, I was kinda inspired but this which a friend sent me :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpfQSqfpuac

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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#23 Unread post by Novikova » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:11 am

:lol: Ahaha, that video and picture, that's glorious. I love it! I can't stop laughing. You guys are great. XD

But my point stands. No one expects a riskfree boss. But nor do I think people should have to deal with a fight in which one person can wipe 10-40 others even unintentionally. There's honestly no good reason for that mechanic than 'we just like seeing people headbutt their keyboards'. On a PvE server, there's rarely a good or effective way to combat griefers, unless they happen to flag up. I dislike that someone can mess with an entire raid group with no effective recourse.

Heroic raids for heroic raiders are fine. Dandy, even. World bosses tend to be an open stepping stone with various bonus goodies. I like them as a step between, not an exclusive thing or even a thing one poor schmuck wanting to watch the fight can wreck. Are people really going to say 'No, go away, we're killing a boss'? Or 'sorry, no non-heroic groups'?

Groups still wipe on the sha, and that's fine. All I'm sayin' is this is way too exclusive, way too easy to grief (intentionally or otherwise - woe to the poor sap with high latency or an old computer) and could use some tuning. I'm not saying OMG NO to world bosses that are risky.

And even Taylor Swift can spot trouble. :P (Goats and all)
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#24 Unread post by Wain » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:14 am

Spiritbinder wrote:
Novikova wrote:He's like C'thun riding on the back of Galleon while the Sha holds up a boombox. There's not much chance of a non-heroic raid group getting this guy down, period. Easily griefed is just sprinkles on the pain cupcake.
I like them odds.... ;)
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That's awesome :) You are totally channeling Terry Gilliam with that C'thun pic :)
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#25 Unread post by Zhinru » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:04 am

cowmuflage wrote:I'd of thought the Sha of anger would be into something more heavy like death metal but that's funner :lol:
I expected Sha of Anger to be into Justin Bieber. Just to make a lot of people angry.
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#26 Unread post by Meggers » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:21 am

Lawdy that pic. Ahaha!

I saw someone on my server the other day (recently changed to sargeras) say that "We'll brute force it dead"

Right.


....I don't think they understand how this boss works. :(
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#27 Unread post by Qinni » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:59 pm

Seem like this world boss is discouraging ANYONE to fight it. What's the point of making a world boss so that a 90 in greens cane go in and get a chance at gear, only to die and maybe get yelled at by people that where fighting it?

That's what I'm getting from this thread.

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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#28 Unread post by Slickrock » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:14 pm

So.. Everything in the open world should only be LFR difficulty or lower? That's a bit dissapointing.
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#29 Unread post by Qinni » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:38 pm

Slickrock wrote:So.. Everything in the open world should only be LFR difficulty or lower? That's a bit dissapointing.
We aren't saying that. What most of us are trying to say that its stupid that the boss is so limited to who can and cannot do it. World bosses should be for EVERYONE cause its like...you know..in the world (of warcraft)?

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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#30 Unread post by Quiv » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:50 pm

What Oondasta has done on the PTR (when he is actually up -_-) is present a very challenging world boss..

that promotes participation via faction tapping...

then turns around and goes counter to the entire effort with a couple abilities that directly punish disorganization.

You cant have the level of organization Oondasta requires AND random faction participation brought in by the lure of faction tapping. Not going to happen. Nope.jpg

And yes there will be realms that never (or very rarely) kill it. That cant be good design for things out in the world. And the fact Oondasta is in the world changes everything. Its not the same as heroic raiding, or heroic only bosses, being exclusive.

But as mentioned, this will need to go live to really see how it plays out. I personally see a lot of problems and while I have no problem with a more challenging world boss, I think Oondasta swung too far. But we will see.
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#31 Unread post by Slickrock » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:27 pm

Qinni wrote:
Slickrock wrote:So.. Everything in the open world should only be LFR difficulty or lower? That's a bit dissapointing.
We aren't saying that. What most of us are trying to say that its stupid that the boss is so limited to who can and cannot do it. World bosses should be for EVERYONE cause its like...you know..in the world (of warcraft)?
But that IS what you just said. If everyone should have an equal chance to down him, then he does have to be Sha (LFR) difficulty level.
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#32 Unread post by Slickrock » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:30 pm

And with how everyone is so against this, I'm surpised that no one here is up in arms regarding the new tap sharing on the new rares, which is much more likely to be abused by griefing, and effect normal day to day gameplay.
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#33 Unread post by Qinni » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:48 pm

Slickrock wrote:
Qinni wrote:
Slickrock wrote:So.. Everything in the open world should only be LFR difficulty or lower? That's a bit dissapointing.
We aren't saying that. What most of us are trying to say that its stupid that the boss is so limited to who can and cannot do it. World bosses should be for EVERYONE cause its like...you know..in the world (of warcraft)?
But that IS what you just said. If everyone should have an equal chance to down him, then he does have to be Sha (LFR) difficulty level.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm done putting my own two cents in.

*leaves thread*

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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#34 Unread post by Wain » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:53 pm

Slickrock wrote:And with how everyone is so against this, I'm surpised that no one here is up in arms regarding the new tap sharing on the new rares, which is much more likely to be abused by griefing, and effect normal day to day gameplay.
Yeah, that has me concerned. The first thing that comes to mind with the changes to Rares is that you only need tap it to raise its difficulty then just sit around and watch the person already fighting it suffer. I'm hoping they thought of that and there's more to it.
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#35 Unread post by Wain » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:07 pm

Qinni wrote:
Slickrock wrote:
Qinni wrote: We aren't saying that. What most of us are trying to say that its stupid that the boss is so limited to who can and cannot do it. World bosses should be for EVERYONE cause its like...you know..in the world (of warcraft)?
But that IS what you just said. If everyone should have an equal chance to down him, then he does have to be Sha (LFR) difficulty level.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm done putting my own two cents in.
*leaves thread*
Woah, calm. :)

It is pretty much what was said. It boils down to whether you think all world mobs should be at a difficulty level that makes them accessible to all reasonably-geared regular players (most of which will be in LFR-level gear these days), or if some should only be defeatable by more elite groups, such as heroic geared.

I'm on the fence with this one. I can see both sides.

I dislike situations where only a small % of players experience important storylines, which used to be the case with later-tier raiding. Sunwell was the most heart-breaking example. But world bosses are different. Anyone can see them, even get killed by them if they so wish. And they don't often serve as gates to any important content (though I know the Sha is necessary for a quest). If this is the case then I won't get too upset, even if I will be frustrated if I can't kill them myself (at least not in this patch!).
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#36 Unread post by SpiritBinder » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:05 pm

Slickrock wrote:So.. Everything in the open world should only be LFR difficulty or lower? That's a bit dissapointing.


Disappointing is the way this was worded, condescending much?

I find it amusing that you think that an ability that this boss has, that can wipe an organised group so fast, is needed. Otherwise it's.. as you put it "LFR difficulty or lower"

You know that if even an organised heroic geared T15+ group did attempt this boss, and others came in and spread the chain they would all wipe right? This is not about the boss being to hard, this is about one particular ability that has no counter to others intentionally or not, wiping the raid.

Can you imagine if every time you tried to raid, heroic or not, anyone else could just come in and wipe your raid, just for giggles or a chance to get loot off the boss your killing?

Slickrock wrote: But that IS what you just said. If everyone should have an equal chance to down him, then he does have to be Sha (LFR) difficulty level.


No, she never said anything of the sort, re-read her posts slick. No mention of making this a "LFR difficulty or lower" boss. She never said that "everyone should have an equal chance to down him" you did. She just said that world boss should be for everyone.

Higher geared/better organised groups should have a "Higher" "chance" at beating a world boss. But if you have average gear you should have an average chance to succeed, etc. But no one has “higher” chance with this mechanic, it’s very clear.

And don't forget, many Sha groups wiped at the start as well, but now it's MUCH easier. There no need to chalk it up to Sha is "LFR difficulty or lower". Of course it is now, because many out gear it.

Slickrock wrote:And with how everyone is so against this, I'm surprised that no one here is up in arms regarding the new tap sharing on the new rares, which is much more likely to be abused by griefing, and effect normal day to day gameplay.


And while interesting, maybe this would be great as its own thread?

Lastly, I’m not opposed to this ability. I like the fact that blizzard is making something bigger, stronger, harder. Let people “throw themselves against Oondasta's body” Let the elite try and see what they can accomplish. But the way it’s set atm, it’s certainly NOT designed for anyone apart from those highly organised/high enders and if you try to help, well… you’re going to wipe them too!

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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#37 Unread post by Slickrock » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:16 pm

Spiritbinder wrote:No, she never said anything of the sort, re-read her posts slick. No mention of making this a "LFR difficulty or lower" boss. She never said that "everyone should have an equal chance to down him" you did. She just said that world boss should be for everyone.

Higher geared/better organised groups should have a "Higher" "chance" at beating a world boss. But if you have average gear you should have an average chance to succeed, etc. But no one has “higher” chance with this mechanic, it’s very clear.
That applies to LFR as well. If you are going to make something accessible to everyone, then going toward LFR difficulty is where it needs to go, which is exactly what Blizz has done with LFR raiding. But even without the 'LFR" term, an accessible raid boss can't be more difficult that what Sha is now.

But we also aren't talking about a world boss that's in the middle of the everyday content.

Oondasta is sitting on an island that's basically designed for him alone and hunter pets. There's no other reason to go out there. It's also clear from the Blues that the intention is to make it crazy hard. Might it be too hard? Will have to wait and see.

But I think everyone forgets how hard the old world dragon bosses were, and even Doom Lord Kazzak. One stupid move on him could wipe a raid as well.
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#38 Unread post by Qinni » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:17 pm

Slickrock wrote:There's no other reason to go out there.
People will be out there farming for the new pets, bones for the mount that costs 9999 bones. EVERYONE WILL BE THERE. Or have you not kept up with wowhead ptr? Not to mention the elites drop eggs to hatch mounts/pets.

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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#39 Unread post by Slickrock » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:24 pm

Wain wrote:I dislike situations where only a small % of players experience important storylines, which used to be the case with later-tier raiding. Sunwell was the most heart-breaking example. But world bosses are different. Anyone can see them, even get killed by them if they so wish. And they don't often serve as gates to any important content (though I know the Sha is necessary for a quest). If this is the case then I won't get too upset, even if I will be frustrated if I can't kill them myself (at least not in this patch!).
That's a good point, but I get the feeling from the Blue posts that the intention is for this guy to be the ultimate whale shark/doom-lord/old-world-dragon. There's nothing I've seen yet of him being a key part of lore, and he's basically on that island by himself with some pets we might want.

It's not like he's Nalak who will appear in the middle of the new zone. If Oondasta was in the middle of that, then I think that would be a concern. (I remember BT raids having problems when Doom Lord was around).

But my real point here is... give it a chance, rather than requesting that he be locked away as a heroic only boss which will ensure that very few ever see him. (And we already have a heroic-only boss in this patch).
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Re: Difficult bosses that faction tap (design conflict?)

#40 Unread post by Slickrock » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:31 pm

Qinni wrote:
Slickrock wrote:There's no other reason to go out there.
People will be out there farming for the new pets, bones for the mount that costs 9999 bones. EVERYONE WILL BE THERE. Or have you not kept up with wowhead ptr? Not to mention the elites drop eggs to hatch mounts/pets.
When all the quest content is on the other new island, that's where most people will spend there time. Some will farm the pets, far fewer will try collecting bones. Everyone else will be out on the other island doing their dailies and all the opening quests.

Which reminds me... did they adjust the drop rate on the pets? If not, based on my last visit, you'll have all 4 versions in about 5 minutes.
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