Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

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Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#1 Unread post by Lisaara » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:32 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osB0_0G5N8g

Very interesting. One thing I wanna note is...ya'll remember that cata quest where we thought Garrosh was noble for kicking the General off a cliff? Dave will correct us.....he wasn't being noble. It was mostly "Why did you wanna use a mana bomb on these guys when soldiers can take them out? Stupid!". He wasn't doing it for honor....

Wow....That...came as a shocker to me.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#2 Unread post by LupisDarkmoon » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:42 pm

That... seems like a total retcon to me. :-/ I mean if that was the whole goal of his, it was HORRIBLY executed. I mean just god-awfully. Garrosh is in no way subtle, if that was his intentions, he would have showed it in some way. But instead almost everyone thought he was being noble.

That's not how you foreshadow, Blizzard. That's how you forget where you're going with a character and quickly patch up the mistakes later.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#3 Unread post by Wain » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:44 pm

That was a good misdirection then. "To be Horde" apparently means to be economical. ;)

But yes, feels more like retcon to me ;)
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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#4 Unread post by cowmuflage » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:37 pm

I'll agree feels like a retcon to me.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#5 Unread post by Lisaara » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:41 pm

I don't feel it was clear and I like the fact it was twisted. He's the guy who made the quest so I imagine he had this in mind all along.

Even if he didn't, any roleplayer can tell ya that you sometimes alter a characters background if it's needed. Doesn't make it a bad thing, imho. Just trying to keep things making sense rather than being all over the place.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#6 Unread post by cowmuflage » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:44 pm

If that was in his mind when he wrote it he wrote it badly. Imo it's a retcon and a bad one.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#7 Unread post by Silivren » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:18 pm

LupisDarkmoon wrote:That... seems like a total retcon to me. :-/ I mean if that was the whole goal of his, it was HORRIBLY executed. I mean just god-awfully. Garrosh is in no way subtle, if that was his intentions, he would have showed it in some way. But instead almost everyone thought he was being noble.

That's not how you foreshadow, Blizzard. That's how you forget where you're going with a character and quickly patch up the mistakes later.
So much this.. Horrid retcon for a character that they stripped of any chance of redemption or glory.. /is disgusted >.<

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#8 Unread post by Lisaara » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:18 pm

Why is it bad? Garrosh was always a whimp. A crybaby. He hated himself. He hated being an orc. He felt disgraced. Thrall gave him a pep talk. He had the choice to do something with himself and become great and he chose poorly as well as power going to his head. To me, that seems to be a legit line of character development. He never was a good guy. Never ever. Not every character is gonna be like Grom and be able to redeem themselves. Some just have fallen too far to be redeemed. There has been many characters like this in many different series that have had this pathline. So why is Garrosh's bad and any others not?

I always hear the same thing but never any explanation. Seems Blizz is always getting flack. I'm really at the point that someone is always gonna not like something they do and call Blizz bad or lazy yet never explain why. Just gets irritating to see that a lot, yanno? I'm really curious as to why a character can't just fall without redemption, so this isn't a personal attack. It's just been bugging me, that's all.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#9 Unread post by Silivren » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:35 pm

Because if they were going to do that they shouldn't have built him up in the first place. I have personal problems with this because they DID build him up. Decide what you're doing and stick with it, Blizzard seems to have a hard time doing this. Whether this man claims Garrosh was being.. what economical? or not he didn't demonstrate it clearly. When you give an impression you should stick with it rather than going OH HE SNAPPED NOW HE'S MEAN AGAIN without ANY explanation. That's stupid. Garrosh didn't "fall" he was afraid, afraid of himself. Thrall builds him up for Blizzard to yank him down without giving him a chance.

Whether you agree or not is your decision but to me this is a horrible retcon for a character who was never given a chance to shine and I for one think he should have been able to.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#10 Unread post by Lisaara » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:46 pm

Dirty-Claws wrote:Because if they were going to do that they shouldn't have built him up in the first place. I have personal problems with this because they DID build him up. Decide what you're doing and stick with it, Blizzard seems to have a hard time doing this. Whether this man claims Garrosh was being.. what economical? or not he didn't demonstrate it clearly. When you give an impression you should stick with it rather than going OH HE SNAPPED NOW HE'S MEAN AGAIN without ANY explanation. That's stupid. Garrosh didn't "fall" he was afraid, afraid of himself. Thrall builds him up for Blizzard to yank him down without giving him a chance.

Whether you agree or not is your decision but to me this is a horrible retcon for a character who was never given a chance to shine and I for one think he should have been able to.
Oh I don't mind if people don't like it. I just wanna know the reason cause I always see the Sha of Hatred pop up about it without a rhyme or reason to why. :) So that's why I asked about it.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#11 Unread post by Keilden » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:30 am

Wain wrote:That was a good misdirection then. "To be Horde" apparently means to be economical. ;)

But yes, feels more like retcon to me ;)
Garrosh: Do you know what the netcost was for using the bomb? Using grunts would have been 5 gold, 3 silver and 78 copper cheaper per kill!!!!*KICK*

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#12 Unread post by LupisDarkmoon » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:43 am

Basically agreeing with Doctress- while usually I like it if characters take an unexpected turn, if that was the intention with Garrosh, they failed at it. Proper character development has foreshadowing, yeah, and his spurts of evil could be seen as that- except he was like that from the beginning. He was always afraid of himself and taking it out on others. The only foreshadowing of future development was, rather, his few attempts to look noble. He was starting to develop a strong sense of honor that was very strict and ruthless, but very powerful, and he wasn't letting that honor go.

Then suddenly he's using the Sha of Pride and oh it was just economical all along. Wait, what? Where did- what? So every single development to his character was a red herring? This is more like what old Garrosh would do! What gives? All that honor and all the little hints that he was getting redeemed even a little, all of those are completely forgotten or explained away as the quest above was. That's... crappy character design. He's the least subtle character they've written, he's not going to just trick people. That's not really a Garrosh thing. Or it wasn't. I dunno about now, he's totally beyond me now.

It just seems like they had a plan for Garrosh, then they went "...You know what would be cool?" and changed the plan, then went "OH CRAP" and had to quickly pull a rug over all his redemption foreshadowing to hide it. I won't say I don't like Garrosh, as he's an interesting villain; but I'm really disappointed in how he got there.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#13 Unread post by Qraljar » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:53 am

I'm a bit miffed that, again, Blizzard developers completely misunderstand the reason why (a lot of) Alliance players are upset with how the story has been for them.


But what are you going to do about it..
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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#14 Unread post by Lisaara » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:07 am

Keilden wrote:
Wain wrote:That was a good misdirection then. "To be Horde" apparently means to be economical. ;)

But yes, feels more like retcon to me ;)
Garrosh: Do you know what the netcost was for using the bomb? Using grunts would have been 5 gold, 3 silver and 78 copper cheaper per kill!!!!*KICK*
This made me LOL.

Lupis: You and Doctress explained it well and I can see your points. Doesn't seem it's so much Garrosh turning evil that's the issue as to it being how he got there. I can agree it could've been smoother.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#15 Unread post by Slickrock » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:09 pm

It would seem to me that a few too many here are expecting a lot more storytelling than what an MMORPG can offer. Poor storytelling? perhaps. Retcon? no, unless the secret of who was to be the big bad was still that closely held at that time, which I doubt.

As for the whole general-cliff-kicking thing.. If I was Garrosh, I probably would have done the same. Use a nuke to take out a relatively small town, when it could have been used on SW, or some other larger target? Bad choice.
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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#16 Unread post by Lisaara » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:20 pm

That was pretty much my thoughts too. In Garrosh's shoes, I'd have been angry if someone used a mana bomb on a small camp. It's not so much economics as it is war weapons getting wasted.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#17 Unread post by LupisDarkmoon » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:35 pm

Slickrock wrote:It would seem to me that a few too many here are expecting a lot more storytelling than what an MMORPG can offer. Poor storytelling? perhaps. Retcon? no, unless the secret of who was to be the big bad was still that closely held at that time, which I doubt.
Point, I'm expecting way too much. xD I guess I've been spoiled by some really well done storylines- the Lich King expansion had some awesome ones- but I'm sure I'm remembering only the good things about them. It's an mmorpg, storytelling is sort of a side goal.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#18 Unread post by Keilden » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:29 am

I still belive the Garrosh is a economical leader side. He started killing and hating trolls becuse they used half the "Big Spikes" money to buy weed.

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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#19 Unread post by Slickrock » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:47 am

Junrei wrote:That was pretty much my thoughts too. In Garrosh's shoes, I'd have been angry if someone used a mana bomb on a small camp. It's not so much economics as it is war weapons getting wasted.
yep.
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Re: Jesse Cox Interview with Dave Kosak 5.4

#20 Unread post by Slickrock » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:51 am

Totally side thought.....

So, with all the fuss over who is going to be warchief, I realized I haven't heard anyone ask, who is going to be the new Orc leader? And what happens to the Kor' faction of Orcs after this? and all the dark shamans? Orcs is gonna be a mess after this.
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