Final Boss of Expansion....

[cowmuflage]

I wish they would make an Alliance leader into a villain for once. >.> I liked Garrosh before they made him a lame badguy.

But we all know they wont ever do that. They will just continue to turn every Horde leader into a badguy.

[Nachtwulf]

That's because the Horde has leaders that ARE bad guys. Sylvanas is not a good person. She never has been. She's gotten -worse- over time, but she is 100% bad people and has been from vanilla. All her posturing about 'her people' is just a fabrication; she's using the undead citizens of Lordaeron as a tool and a mechanism to an end, but she really doesn't give the tiniest shit for them and never has. And if she doesn't care for her own faction, she REALLY isn't going to care for a bunch of scruffy savages in loincloths. It's an association of convenience and the fact that she's smarter than Garrosh and all the orcs he's sent to watch her (this apparently isn't hard, given how casually the orcs just accept her OBVIOUSLY fake excuses all the time.)

I honestly expect Vol'jin, now that he's in a position to actually pay attention to her, is going to call her on the carpet and she's going to end up in raidbossland because he isn't going to take her lip like Garrosh and his thugs did.

The Alliance just isn't written to be so internally conniving, on the whole. Or isn't developed enough by half. I mean, you could easily pick one of the dwarf leaders to go bad but they won't because none of them have any lore to even expand on. Except MAYBE Moira and that'd be so obvious. (Though I guess Garrosh was obvious too.) Frankly, I'd LOVE to see MalDURRion go crazy nightmare waboo and get to kill him in the face really hard. But they won't do it because Mr. ManBearPIg is too sacred or some crap.

Edit: We did have Staghelm go raidboss. But... really no one cared about him anyway, he was a jerk.

[cowmuflage]

If they make Sylvanas a raid boss that would be the final straw that broke the camels back and I would stop playing the game. I would not even look back. She's the only lore character I actually care about nowadays after they fucked up Jaina.

[Lupis]

Please please PLEASE let us kill Malfurion. Please? I hate everything about him. He slept through a cultural revolution for the Night Elves, then woke up and went back to his old ways like nothing had happened, taking Tyrande's place and just. Just. /STOP/

I'd like to see more development for the dwarves, too, and the gnomes. Poor leaders practically don't exist, they do so little! The dwarves are in a really shaky position with their forced tribune, and I honestly don't see why they go along with Varian's orders. The Night Elves have almost no reason whatsoever to follow a human king, and the draenei are kind of just... there. (Though now, with Maraad, they at least have some ability to yell at Varian and tell him to do what the centuries-old-veterans say.) Oh and Genn exists and that's really it.

Just. So little happening in the Alliance that isn't "VARIAN DOES THE THING" and "JAINA DOES THE THING".

(Also I admit I adore Sylvanas but mostly because I fangirl over sinister, cunning, sassy characters like her)

[PorrasouxRex]

I'm just concerned the Horde will become all-goodie-goodie. I liked Garrosh before they decided to turn his character into a Saturday night cartoon villian. His motivations for doing what he did came out of nowhere and with little common sense.

While I don't agree with Horde being complete savages, I choose Horde because unlike Alliance, we are not really about keeping good posture and drinking tea with our fellow leaders. We're the kind of people who eat chicken on a big plate, covered in sauce without using forks or knives, as we watch two warriors train it out in an arena, yelling at the top of our lungs for someone to win.

I don't believe in the whole "good in evil" way of thinking. Just one side has their motivations that the other side considers bad or wrong. Both factions have done horrible things in the past, despite pointing fingers.

Bottom line, I don't want Horde to turn into the Alliance with a coat of red paint.

[Quiv]

I miss the end of expansion bosses for which we had precedence to kill. We knew about Illidan, Arthas, and Deathwing before their expansions, and had quite the many reasons for dealing with them. I wouldn't have minded Garrosh's story progressing through an expansion if he had a richer history in this sort of thing. There were hints but it wasn't as... idk... visceral as Arthas or Deathwing as villians. (I didn't care how they ended up treating Deathwing but at least he had a lot of history). And now we have Grom and the new alternate history being written. I just don't like these story arcs that come from left field, I want to start tying up the loose ends we still have.

[Xota]

I know this isn't going to be a popular statement, but Garrosh had those character flaws from the beginning. He always had an inferiority complex, he just went from mopey to being overly aggressive.

If bizarro Grom is anything like original Grom, then being a bad guy isn't a stretch at all. Grom drank demons blood in order to gain power. Twice. The second time was after he was supposedly reformed. He did it in order to kill a demigod in order to get cheap lumber. A demonic pact for the purpose of murdering someone to take their wood is not heroic. It's very plainly villainous.

That being said, Grom as a final boss seems really meh. Unless he's Mannoroth in disguise.

[PorrasouxRex]

I know this isn't going to be a popular statement, but Garrosh had those character flaws from the beginning. He always had an inferiority complex, he just went from mopey to being overly aggressive.

If bizarro Grom is anything like original Grom, then being a bad guy isn't a stretch at all. Grom drank demons blood in order to gain power. Twice. The second time was after he was supposedly reformed. He did it in order to kill a demigod in order to get cheap lumber. A demonic pact for the purpose of murdering someone to take their wood is not heroic. It's very plainly villainous.

That being said, Grom as a final boss seems really meh. Unless he's Mannoroth in disguise.

After of course they were tricked by the demons several times that Draenei were people that were a major threat, and had to be eliminated in order for orcs to be free after years of torture from the Ogres. Gaining power through otherworldly means? Our characters and several lore characters have done this before. Yet they weren't looked at in a bad light because they did it for a "heroic" purpose. The second time was because the Orcs were in a bad situation. Thrall sent them to unknown territory, were outnumbered, and outgunned by a demi-god. Thrall wanted to create a successful Horde, and Grom was just doing his job of expanding our reach.

Basically: Facing down a demigod of unknown power, are outnumbered, and have no knowledge of the enemy or the forests around them. While it is wrong to once again corrupt yourself in order to win a battle, sometimes in order to overcome impossible odds, you must sacrifice something in return. Is that truly villainous?

[Slickrock]

Ok, a few things here...

First off, i main alliance, in large part because I cannot stomach the undead, the abborations that they are. The head of that genocidal witch Slyvanis needs to be on a pike. Since when is something that evil something to cheer for?

That said, this whole mess is Varian's fault for stopping Thrall.

Surprised that no one has brought up the ramifications of the Warlords events. If the events of BC never happen, we may be faced with the Burning Legion at full strength with a handy portal directing the way to Azeroth.

I'm alliance. My gun is at the ready for any Orc, brown, green or otherwise that threatens my homeland.

[Xota]

I know this isn't going to be a popular statement, but Garrosh had those character flaws from the beginning. He always had an inferiority complex, he just went from mopey to being overly aggressive.

If bizarro Grom is anything like original Grom, then being a bad guy isn't a stretch at all. Grom drank demons blood in order to gain power. Twice. The second time was after he was supposedly reformed. He did it in order to kill a demigod in order to get cheap lumber. A demonic pact for the purpose of murdering someone to take their wood is not heroic. It's very plainly villainous.

That being said, Grom as a final boss seems really meh. Unless he's Mannoroth in disguise.

After of course they were tricked by the demons several times that Draenei were people that were a major threat, and had to be eliminated in order for orcs to be free after years of torture from the Ogres. Gaining power through otherworldly means? Our characters and several lore characters have done this before. Yet they weren't looked at in a bad light because they did it for a "heroic" purpose. The second time was because the Orcs were in a bad situation. Thrall sent them to unknown territory, were outnumbered, and outgunned by a demi-god. Thrall wanted to create a successful Horde, and Grom was just doing his job of expanding our reach.

Basically: Facing down a demigod of unknown power, are outnumbered, and have no knowledge of the enemy or the forests around them. While it is wrong to once again corrupt yourself in order to win a battle, sometimes in order to overcome impossible odds, you must sacrifice something in return. Is that truly villainous?

Yes. Joining a pact with demons that you know are evil, in order to kill someone to steal their wood is truly villainous. It's pretty obvious that Thrall would prefer not being enslaved by demons, so Grom "just doing his job" is just a bad excuse. Enslaved to demons isn't "a successful Horde". Grom's troll advisers told him not to do it, that the blood was a curse. But he did it anyways. Grom wasn't a hero, or even an anti-hero. He was a villain protagonist. A cool one, but still willfully bad for both the alliance and the horde.

He had better options. He chose the one that was worst for the Horde because he wanted personal power.

Surprised that no one has brought up the ramifications of the Warlords events. If the events of BC never happen, we may be faced with the Burning Legion at full strength with a handy portal directing the way to Azeroth.

If there's a whole additional bizarro Burning Legion, and it looks like that's how the story is being written, then I find myself caring about the story less and less. Let the bizarro Titans deal with it. They could just gate in an infinite number of their alternate selves going to all the alternate universes killing all the alternate burning legions. Turning Warcraft into Sliders is a major ass-pull story wise. Besides, I thought we break the iron horde dark portal, so the only portals are pretty small ones. And even if the dark portal is fully open to Draenor, Draenor isn't directly exposed to the Twisting Nether like Outland is.

[Azunara]

Frankly I'm tired of the whole HORDE ARE SLAUGHTERER MURDERER JERKFACES dynamic and the ALLIANCE ARE GOODIE GOODIE HONORABLE CODE LOYALTY PRIDE thing. Dear god can we have some plot arc that ISN'T humans vs. orcs AGAIN and have you know maybe something that has the Alliance/Horde not at each others' throats? I am so sick of faction wars. I'd take another old god at this point and I'd be damn grateful. Old gods are cool.

But seriously the whole black and white horde are evil alliance are good thing that blizz shoves down our throat has gotten incredibly wearisome. Let it die.

[Xota]

During the purge of Dalaran, it certainly didn't feel like alliance were goodie goodie honorable code loyalty pride thing. I could have done without my characters participating in that.

[cowmuflage]

They will hand wave that with "Jaina was a bit nuts then but she's better now" or something >.>

[Krysteena]

They will hand wave that with "Jaina was a bit nuts then but she's better now" or something >.>

Honestly, I'd like us to end Jaina. She's looney now, and from the events in Dalaran, I don't think she'll ever be completely better. She went so crazy that her hair changed colour! That's just...odd. Plus, she kicked the Sunreavers from the Kirin Tor. They had no reason to be kicked out aside from her believing all the horde is bad, or whatever went through her mind when we took the divine bell back. Even when the threat of the horde was neutralised somewhat, as Vol'Jin took the lead (to which I majorly fangirled so much it wasn't healthy) she tried to convince Varian to 'end the horde'. He was so close, and you could tell she wasn't impressed when Vol'Jin got off with a warning. Then again, a troll that's slouched lower than you is easy to talk to. When he decided to stand up and tower over you without completely showing his fill height, you wouldn't try to kill him.

Between Varian and Jaina, I'd like both to let go of their rule. The Horde has had loads of movement in its leadership. The Allaince hasn't. Why can't, in this expansion perhaps, Varian or Jaina be tempted by demon blood and go all lonely or something? Or Malfurion! Gosh I hate his character. Broll Bearmantle (if anyone knows who I'm talking about/if he's still alive) would've made a better leader than him, imo.

[Snope]

I honestly didn't really know who the final boss could really be in this expansion. But the boss just being Grom Hellscream is a bit disappointing, especially since he could end up being similar to Garrosh in battle strategy. But maybe if the final raid was in the middle of the Iron Horde's charge on Azeroth, that could balance things out.

I'm probably wrong for thinking this, but I always saw the "True Horde" as a smaller faction of radicals with way too much power and influence rather than most of Orgrimmar doing a Face Heel Turn.

[Lisaara]

I'll keep Varian since he actually changed for the better and has become a good king. Darth Proudmoore? I'll happily kill her.

And yes, Broll is alive...he's just not a very social person. Which wouldn't make him a good leader either.

[Azunara]

During the purge of Dalaran, it certainly didn't feel like alliance were goodie goodie honorable code loyalty pride thing. I could have done without my characters participating in that.

yeah okay that's one time. two if you want to talk camp taurjo. compared to the horde's raging list of crimes and supposed atrocities in quests blizz forces on us (uh the forsaken trying to plague EVERYTHING, Stonetalon and the baby druids, Ashenvale is basically all of the horde being like "oi NEs we're ganking you and defiling your land", sure I could come up with more if pressed whoops I just woke up). hell, most of the horde in pandaland say the pandas as people to conquer. the alliance had a VAGUE interest in trying to communicate and work with the pandas. and then of course HUGE civil war in which the horde turned on itself and slaughtered its people. and the alliance are like "hey guys what are you doing over there welp nvm guess we'll....just...watch?"

I'd argue 9 times out of 10 the factions follow that dynamic of Horde = bad, Alliance = good. Which is tiresome. I like shades of grey morality. When done right. Not when it's done with Jaina getting pissed and genocidal.

[Krysteena]

For a second I was like "...who's this Darth Proudmoore you speak of?" I think loads of people would happily kill her.

Ahh so he is. Wowpedia cleared that up ^_^ silly Broll. It's probably the gnomes. They're terrifying, which is why he's in hiding honestly, Tyrande on her own would be fine as a leader. Broll, now I think on it, not so much of a good leader. Yes, he's a good druid and all, but I see where you're coming from. He's good, but not that good :/

[Thwip]

I gotta say that I'm fairly Orc'd out at this point, but I usually don't play to raid. I'll be in my garrison for 2938742983 years with an occasional romp out to get things for it. I'm super pleased with Vol'jin taking over the Horde though! I squealed like a tard when I got a hold of the cinematic.

As a Horde based player, I'm very ready for them to take us out of the spotlight for a while and let Alliance have some Lorebutcherin---I mean..er..Limelight. Kinda getting sick of the way it makes the Horde as a whole look like blood thirsty bad guys. I think we've had enough of that at this point. Horde has always come off as just playing with the hand their dealt with to me, not this conquer everything and kill all the peoples thing....save for Sylvanas. She's definitely on the fringe and has always been.

[Nachtwulf]

Hell, just look at the pandaren start experience.

Horde: Get some things to make weapons out of, kill some wildlife, find our explosives and the dude that knows how to set them off.

Alliance: Save injured soldiers, drive back marauding saurok, collect badly needed medical supplies.

And then when you get back to wherever:

Alliance: Citizens welcome you with amiability (or mild confusion), King Varian gives you a brief, stern talking to and then asks to see your hot ninja kung fu moves and tells you you're awesome.

Horde: Get treated like complete shit by everyone (Garrosh AND the random citizenry), then threatened with death several times, then nearly killed in a gladiator match for the jerk's amusement. When you win, you're -allowed- to stay but with the implication you're still shit.

Makes me wonder why the hell any pandas stay with the Horde at all, given that kind of introduction.