More BM artifact variants

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Pepsi Jedi
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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

You're laughing and being an ass, but people are talking about the 'lore' the 'feel' the 'concepts' of the class being big and key in this expansion. While the guns 'sound effect in the game' has been muted, that doesn't change the fact that guns are loud and do scare animals. So while you're waving your hand and laughing at people, know that you've missed the point.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Lupen202 »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You're laughing and being an ass, but people are talking about the 'lore' the 'feel' the 'concepts' of the class being big and key in this expansion. While the guns 'sound effect in the game' has been muted, that doesn't change the fact that guns are loud and do scare animals. So while you're waving your hand and laughing at people, know that you've missed the point.
Actually, if you train and condition an animal they shouldn't be afraid of guns. Rhyela is completely correct (and how were they being an ass?).

You can see this a lot with police dogs and horses, such as those used in hunts. Do they get spooked from the yelling and the gun fire? No. At least they shouldn't. If my hunter's pets were easily spooked by a little gun shot they'd be a pretty terrible raiding companion.

I hate the gun but that really is a crappy argument.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Some can be. not all. And it takes time, training and effort. Yes you fire off a gun next to a dog or a horse with out warning and with out that training and it scares the hell out of them. The logic that guns don't scare animals is like saying "Well guns don't scare people" Sure they do. They might not scare the one guy shooting but go into walmart and fire off a few shots and see the reaction you get. Go into the woods and fire off a few shots and see what reaction you get. Try it next to a tiger or a lion or a wolf. See how that goes for you. Hounds, who've had 1000s of years by man's side, 100s of years training to put up with guns and acclimated from puppyhood? Sure. Maybe. Horses, 1000s of years of domestication 100s of years around guns, trained since they were a foal. MAYBE. Wild animals that have come to our Orc or Goblin or blood elf's side to fight our foes, suddenly setting off gun shots beside them? No reaction what so ever. right?

It's not a crappy argument if it goes against someone's concept of how/what they're playing. That's like looking at someone and telling them that their views on which race is most fun to play is wrong, because you think another one is and it's only 'logical'.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Lupen202 »

...Where did I say that an animal can't be scared of guns? Of course an animal that hasn't been conditioned around guns will be startled, in the real world. Hell my dog is terrified of fireworks and gun shots even if they're miles away.

But our hunters pets aren't just any animal. These are animals that have tanked the most terrifying of monsters, killed countless enemies and have heard the roars of dragons. And yet you're telling me that they're able to be frightened by the sound of a gun? Seems to me your pet is either poorly trained or simply a poor choice for a companion :p

Maybe a freshly tamed beast would be unnerved by gunshots for a time ... But that still doesn't make the argument a good one. And I don't see how by explaining that the argument is a weak one Im ruining someone's "class fantasy"? It is nothing like telling someone they shouldn't play the race of their choice. At all.
Last edited by Lupen202 on Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Equeon »

Someone brought that up before and I have to agree with those laughing at the "startled by guns" argument. Like I said, there is no way you're going to coddle poor Fluffy the corehound when he gets spooked by an accidental misfire, and then send him to chomp at the feet of gargantuan infernals on the Broken Isles, emanating hellfire with every step.

And that's just Fluffy's most recent foe after facing flocks of fire elementals, armadas of awakened insects, fleets of furious demons, waves of walking corpses, squads of skeletal abominations, camps of cultists, litters of Lovecraftian horrors, and troops of time-traveling orcs.

For our pets to withstand what they do in an hour of game time, they must possess a fortitude and strength of mind much stronger than any real-life creature. Guns are not a problem for our pets.
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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Rhyela »

I really wasn't trying to make fun of anyone, it's just the argument seems really ridiculous to me. By this logic, guns may as well be removed from the game completely. We've had them in the game for years, but if our fantasy devilsaur pets are now scared of a little "poot" sound from an imaginary gun, then by all means, remove them. I get the immersion and whatever, but now seems an odd time to suddenly focus on the sound effect of a weapon, of all things. I suppose they could just silence all guns, but that isn't very immersive, either.

Basically, it's a game. If my three-headed stitched-together hydra pet can stand toe-to-toe with undead dragons that road a LOT louder than these neutered guns, then I honestly can't imagine how a gun could possibly frighten them. This isn't real life, and I'm not going to consider real-life concepts of animal fear in a debate on guns. If someone wants to talk about the design or back story or whatever, fine. But the "pop" sound of the gun scaring Fluffy the Devilsaur? Ehhhhh.

Edit: also, not all hunters use kitties and doggies. What about the spiders and snakes and beetles who one could argue don't even have ears? Are we going to consider that? Is Timmy the Tapeworm scared of something he can't even hear? Bah. I get what you're trying to say, I really do, but 11 years after launch isn't the time to suddenly worry if our imaginary guns are frightening our imaginary pets.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Yeah you are though. You really are. You're trying to be passive aggressive about it but that's the thing. you ARE Trying to make fun of people. Your post is written in mocking fashion with extremes to try and illustrate how stupid you think other people are. I went to high school too, a good long time ago but one would have to be pretty stupid not to pick up on your mocking tone and derogatory depiction of the other person's thoughts. The derision drips off your post in gallons. Still. Please tell us how you weren't trying to make fun of anyone while telling us how utterly ridiculous you find their viewpoint. People are probably too stupid to notice right?

It was already pointed out to you that in this instance people were talking about the 'fantasy' of the class, or the feel of it. Still you refuse to acknowledge that, and instead choose to again point out that the sound file has been changed to a little poot sound. Yeah... We know. Know how we know? Because SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many people complained about the loud gun sounds that they changed it due to high demand. The file was changed. That doesn't suddenly mean that the people on Azeroth suddenly built in sound suppressors in all the guns. It was the change of a sound file in a game due to repeated and constant complains from the playerbase about it. They didn't change it just for giggles. So many players complained that it was loud and annoying to the point they'd always transmog over guns to not have to hear it or have custom addons to cover it up, or some guilds and raiders wouldn't even let hunters in if they were running guns because it was so bad, that the developers finally listened.

In your snarky reply you straight up said 'I refuse to consider real life concepts... in the debate" Well then.... who cares? If you refuse to consider another person's concepts it's not a debate. you're just typing to try and score points off them. You say you're ok to talk about the design or back story (Which would cover such things, but you'd rather ignore them) But the new sound file scaring an animal? Ehhhh.

Don't worry. We get what you're trying to say. You're very clear in your post. You think some other people's concepts are stupid and see no problem with insulting them and talking down to them. Now if only it was done in such a fashion that was actually clever enough to hide your clear disdain.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Rhyela »

PM sent. Back to our regulary scheduled programming! :P

I think it would be awesome if they could have somehow tied Rexxar or some other well-known hunter to the lore for the artifact. While I appreciate their desire to come up with something different, at the moment, none of it seems to really...mesh. Is that the word I'm looking for? It's like the lore doesn't really seem to have much to do with BM, and then the weapons themselves don't really look like they have anything to do with Mimiron. I mean, I'm sure with some time, they can invent some neat designs. We've seen them before with other weapons like the Voice of the Quilen gun. Or, if they could make them have some really neat effects instead of bullets (I'm thinking caster shells a la Outlaw Star, peeps!)? There's a lot of potential there, I think, but it just hasn't quite come together yet.

Then again, I'm one of those hunters who likes the rather "traditional" looking guns such as the Mark "S" Boomstick. Mmm.....so...boomy. :lol: There's something about a nice wooden stock and a big barrel that I love. So, regardless of what the artifact gun looks like, I'll probably mog it over with something considered "bland". :P

Oh glob! I think I just piddled a little; someone made a 3D papercraft one!!!

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

I do agree that the lore doesn't seem to match BM what so ever, and as I'd said before, I totally agree that the guns dfon't really seem to match the lore given to them either.

They could have done better. Every expansion has someone, class, spec, race, etc that feels like it's left out. Seems this time BM is one of those.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Rhyela »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:They could have done better. Every expansion has someone, class, spec, race, etc that feels like it's left out. Seems this time BM is one of those.
Yeah, what's odd to me is that it seems like Survival is really getting this cool re-design and a fun spear (although I personally always loved dual-wielding back in ye olde days, but still); even MM is getting some interesting design changes with the removal of the pets (though that is understandably a polarizing decision). BM is kinda like...bleh. :lol:

It's still early though, so there's plenty of time for things to improve. I'm still voting for lasers or blobs of plasma as ammunition! >:D Although, as others have said with the elekk gun, blobs of anything might look a bit...yucky. :lol:

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

If they shot lasers (Or lightning) That'd go a long way to making them 'fit' better.

And I agree. Don't want the snot rocket to look more snot rockety.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Pewmew »

a squirrel slingshot would be epic. :lol:

Or a cat crossbow...

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Rhyela »

Hey all, I want to try to explain what I was trying to say earlier about the sound of a gun and a pet's reaction. To be honest, it's a fair point, but one that should have been made twelve years ago in alpha/beta, not now. The reason I say that is because our pets have been fighting alongside guns for a very, very long time. Baby dwarves and baby tauren are dropped into the world with a gun and a pet at their side. So to make the sound of a gun as a case against BM hunters getting guns, it doesn't make sense to me because we've already had them for so long. If someone had made that point a long time ago, I might have agreed. But now isn't the time to be making that argument. Does that make sense? At this point, our pets have been fighting alongside hunters with guns for years, against foes that are far louder than the sound any gun can make. That's why I was trying to say that if sound was an issue, then they should just be removed completely. But I think that would be more immersion-breaking than anything else. I wasn't trying to say that anyone was stupid, just that the point should have been made long ago, not now. Do you see what I'm saying?

Now, I happen to agree that BM hunters would be better off with bows, and MM hunters with guns, but not because of the sound the gun makes. Rather, my case is that when someone says "marksman", I think that generally conjures up an image of a sniper, taking out foes from a long range. And when someone thinks of a sniper, they perhaps tend to think of a rifle - which is a gun (obvi, lol). I think a marksman would be much better suited to a ranged weapon crafted with the most technologically advanced sights, scopes, barrels, ammunition, etc. And in that scenario, it would make much more sense, in my mind, for the most advanced weaponry to be crafted by the most advanced race (or one of, anyway) - the Titans. When I think of a Beast Master, I think of a hunter that's out scouting the wilds with their pets, and when I think of a scout in the woods, I think we'd all generally agree that a bow would be the weapon of choice. Not because of the sound either ranged weapon makes (although it would kind of work out that way, wouldn't it?), but because I think of, for example, the night elven maidens stalking around Teldrassil atop their sabers and with bows in hand. It just feels better overall.

So again, I apologize if I sounded like I thought anyone was stupid. I don't. The argument in and of itself isn't necessarily stupid either, I just think it's twelve years too late. If we want to come up with reasons to be against BM hunters getting guns, by all means, let's hear it. It's just that that particular argument is too little, too late. It would be too immersion-breaking to now, all of a sudden, start worrying about the sound our guns make when our pets have been dealing with it for so long now. And if they tried to go back and say that was the reason for changing (not that I think they will, but if they did), I might throw my computer out the window. :lol:

Does that make sense? I tried not to exaggerate or sound insulting, but I still stand behind my reasoning. ;)

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Sukurachi »

not 12 years for me.
the minute I could switch from a gun to a bow in any previous expansion (pre-transmog era) I did so, often to the detriment of my stats. even if a gun had better stats I would stick to my bow. I've played this way since vanilla.

so I've ALWAYS played my hunters with a bow. the only time I started using some guns is after they changed the sound, and when they started making some rather interesting-looking sleek rifles with a bit of a sci-fi look to them. yes, I know that choosing a gun because it looks a bit sci-fi is anti-lore, but compare the legendary bow from Magister's Terrace with the new artifact guns, and it's pretty obvious that the ball was dropped from a design point of view. That bow looks magical and epic and... artifact-y. The guns they designed looks perfectly functional, and almost boringly "realistic".

By the way, my dog (IRL) was a serious guard dog, ferocious and frightening when she had her hackles up... and even after 16 years there were certain sounds that terrified her, no matter how often she heard them.

Also, I'd rather hunt my prey without making a deafening *BANG* with my weapon when it's time to take them out.
I've always thought of a BM hunter as a more stealthy, more "arrow out of nowhere", type of killer.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Silivren »

Just imo. Nobody is ever going to agree on bows vs guns. But Blizzard is looking to Nesingwary for BM it feels and he uses big guns. MM it seems they're looking to Sylvanas/Alleria. The Windrunners. They use bows and not pets, but for a MM hunter... Well bows fit, if you think about it. No pets to distract them/be noisy when they find their targets. So they'd go for a bow, nice and quiet, and precise. A quick kill. That's my opinion, but at the end of the day its blizzard's choice which class has what. And the MM = Windrunners seems to be the way they're going now.

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Rhyela »

Melle wrote:Just imo. Nobody is ever going to agree on bows vs guns. But Blizzard is looking to Nesingwary for BM it feels and he uses big guns. MM it seems they're looking to Sylvanas/Alleria. The Windrunners. They use bows and not pets, but for a MM hunter... Well bows fit, if you think about it. No pets to distract them/be noisy when they find their targets. So they'd go for a bow, nice and quiet, and precise. A quick kill. That's my opinion, but at the end of the day its blizzard's choice which class has what. And the MM = Windrunners seems to be the way they're going now.
That's another thing I thought of after I wrote my above post. Rather than going for real-life applications of any kind, it seems like they're looking to in-game NPCs that they feel best represent the particular spec. So, precisely as you said, the Windrunners for MM and Nesingwary for BM. So I can definitely see where they're going, even if my brain automatically thinks "marksman" = "sniper" = "super awesome gun". :lol:

At the end of the day, regardless of who gets the guns, I just hope that they come up with some more appealing designs. As they are, they don't feel like weapons of legend, as has been already said countless times. However, I suppose we should be thankful that they aren't going for a Silithid Husked Launcher look. *shudder* Although I'm sure someone out there likes it! :P

Part of me is a little sad that crossbows aren't getting any love. I understand that they're not as widely used, but there have still been some that were quite neat. I think if they had had a bit more attention from the design department in the past, perhaps more folks would have used them? I've certainly never been opposed to them, there just weren't many that appealed to me. Without filters of any kind, wowhead shows 249 crossbows, 387 bows and 379 guns. There are 100 fewer crossbows total in game than the next fewest, guns. It may not sound like a lot, but that's 100+ possible designs that could have been made, 100+ potentially awesome-looking crossbows. Not that it needs to be perfectly even across the board, but dang. Poor crossbows never stood a chance. :lol:

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Nachtwulf »

I have several crossbows I've hung onto for transmog. I agree, they're spiffy. Besides, you get the 'bow' effect while still letting draenei dudes spin-cock them!

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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Dewclaw »

I think the guns are loud argument is missing the point. The point is some people prefer guns, some bows. We should not have to base our spec on weapon preferences.
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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by MaximumOverdrive »

I certainly wish crossbows got more love as well. I play a male Draenei and they start with crossbows. I always felt crossbows tied well with them, but there's barely any new ones anymore. I got one saved from ICC I think, and one from FL, but there's just not a lot of skins (kinds like fist weapons). I'd love to see more of them personally. I don't really have any love for guns in this game, and especially the artifact. I always wanted more Titan related stuff, but not like this. Feels so tacked on and not really thought out for the spec. Who does MM work with for their artifact? I really don't remember.
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Re: More BM artifact variants

Unread post by Pewmew »

MaximumOverdrive wrote: Feels so tacked on and not really thought out for the spec. Who does MM work with for their artifact? I really don't remember.
The Marksman artifact quest involves finding and helping the eldest Windrunner sister, The current owner of the family bow...
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